Morality and Fish

[Aquattro]

I bought a Moorish Idol, really hard to keep. Some say impossible. What's your opinion on that?
Have you bought an "impossible" fish? Why or why not?

Is it wrong? Why? Why not?

All opinion, feel free to take a run at it!

[Howie]

I do not believe it is wrong as long as the person makes every effort to keep the fish healthy and alive. Experimentation is why we are able to keep so many animals/fish in captivity. People have to be willing to dedicate their time and money to provide the best care possible.

[jorjef]

Tiring fast. All the moral gibber jab about what's best for fish, supplying the best "habitat" the best tank conditions to make their little lives more bearable in a glass box makes me want to puke. WE ALL are guilty anyone who thinks they are doing a fish a favor by offering the best living conditions possible has a very fogged thinking. Buy a fish, put it in your tank. It will die, all things do. Today tomorrow or in a week what ever. If we didn't want pretty things to look at in glass box of water we wouldn't buy a tank to begin with so people if you want to wear your I offer the best solution for the little fishes of the world badge of honour go ahead I'm sure all the fish at the local fish shop are screaming pick me pick me when you walk buy.

To answer the question I have bought high risk fish and of coarse it died, will I do it again. Nope..not because of any moral dilemma but because I'm cheap.

Fyi my response has nothing to do with the other two posts, take no offence just a rant that has been building for awhile.

This hobby is the equivalent to jailing innocent people. Oh oh. You come with me while I put you in an 8x10. I will offer you the best I can though.

[Aquattro]

I do not believe it is wrong as long as the person makes every effort to keep the fish healthy and alive. Experimentation is why we are able to keep so many animals/fish in captivity. People have to be willing to dedicate their time and money to provide the best care possible.

Ya, I would tend to agree with that. I've made what I believe are suitable provisions to QT and feed/medicate as required.

[Aquattro]

Tiring fast. All the moral gibber jab about what's best for fish, supplying the best "habitat" the best tank conditions to make their little lives more bearable in a glass box makes me want to puke. WE ALL are guilty anyone who thinks they are doing a fish a favor by offering the best living conditions possible has a very fogged thinking. Buy a fish, put it in your tank. It will die, all things do. Today tomorrow or in a week what ever. If we didn't want pretty things to look at in glass box of water we wouldn't buy a tank to begin with so people if you want to wear your I offer the best solution for the little fishes of the world badge of honour go ahead I'm sure all the fish at the local fish shop are screaming pick me pick me when you walk buy.



I'd also agree with this line of thinking as well :)

[IanWR]

Like most ethical questions, it is complicated. I take as my starting point that I believe that as living beings we owe it to our livestock to be responsible caretakers. Assuming you found a Moorish Idol at a LFS, perhaps it is a good thing to take it home as you have a wealth of experience, and you may have a better than average chance of having it thrive. And yet your purchace encourages your LFS to bring in more Idols, which encourages suppliers to catch more, which may be a bad thing. If there are livestock that have a terrible survival rate, perhaps they would be better off not being harvested.

[Aquattro]

My thoughts are that the LFS is going to sell them anyway. Fishermen are going to catch them, suppliers are going to buy them, LFS will order them and customers will take them home. This will never stop. There are enough people that don't know it's difficult, only as the grumpy Gill in the dentist office. They will always sell whether I buy it or leave it. (In my case, I ordered it specifically for me, so it might have stayed in the ocean if I hadn't). Or not.

But then we get to the question, if I leave it in the ocean, would it have survived until today without getting eaten by a Fijian seal or dolphin? Don't know. Should we leave them all in the ocean? Maybe. But people catch these guys all day long for food in their country of origin. I've seen tang, angel and trigger on ice in markets.

Can I keep this guy alive? I think so. If I do, I'm putting it in a glass box in my livingroom. Is that successful? I doubt the MI would think so.

I dunno, no right answer I guess.

[Bblinks]

It's the challenge that makes me want to try those "impossible" to keep fishes. Gotta overcome the impossibility and make it possible. Damn ocd. Yes I'll take another Achilles for 250 dollars please...throw in the copperband and the moorish idol too.

[Howie]

My thoughts are that the LFS is going to sell them anyway. Fishermen are going to catch them, suppliers are going to buy them, LFS will order them and customers will take them home. This will never stop. There are enough people that don't know it's difficult, only as the grumpy Gill in the dentist office. They will always sell whether I buy it or leave it. (In my case, I ordered it specifically for me, so it might have stayed in the ocean if I hadn't). Or not.

But then we get to the question, if I leave it in the ocean, would it have survived until today without getting eaten by a Fijian seal or dolphin? Don't know. Should we leave them all in the ocean? Maybe. But people catch these guys all day long for food in their country of origin. I've seen tang, angel and trigger on ice in markets.

Can I keep this guy alive? I think so. If I do, I'm putting it in a glass box in my livingroom. Is that successful? I doubt the MI would think so.

I dunno, no right answer I guess.
Lol and if he doesn't survive you got food for your table :P

[jorjef]

It really isn't complicated as people say. It's black or white, you care or don't care about how fish feel about living in a box. I have several tanks, so I guess I truely don't care about what the fish feels or thinks. I will feed it and clean its tank but I want it to live....... For my enjoyment not its well being or quality of life. Like Brad said, maybe if the diver never caught the fish he would have been a seals lunch five minutes later.

[IanWR]

Tiring fast. All the moral gibber jab about what's best for fish, supplying the best "habitat" the best tank conditions to make their little lives more bearable in a glass box makes me want to puke. WE ALL are guilty anyone who thinks they are doing a fish a favor by offering the best living conditions possible has a very fogged thinking.

I get what you are saying. There are people who seem to suggest that keeping pets saves them from a miserable life in the wild. That is clearly silly. And yet I think there is a middle ground between "pets are fully sentient" and "pets are objects". I have similar feelings about cattle. Yes, we keep them to kill and eat them. Yet I don't think that means we can treat them any way we feel like. I feel like we owe them proper nutrition, a modicum of space so they don't go crazy, and as quick a death as we can manage. So in an aquarium context, it means (for me) not being cavalier about the critters I keep. I don't lose sleep if I buy a coral and it dies, but I do attempt to create conditions that it could thrive. And that means researching, asking for advice from those with more experience, and making reasonable choices with what I buy. I don't feel foggy, but maybe I'm out to lunch? Maybe with a few more years under my belt I'll feel differently. :)

[Howie]

I get what you are saying. There are people who seem to suggest that keeping pets saves them from a miserable life in the wild. That is clearly silly. And yet I think there is a middle ground between "pets are fully sentient" and "pets are objects". I have similar feelings about cattle. Yes, we keep them to kill and eat them. Yet I don't think that means we can treat them any way we feel like. I feel like we owe them proper nutrition, a modicum of space so they don't go crazy, and as quick a death as we can manage. So in an aquarium context, it means (for me) not being cavalier about the critters I keep. I don't lose sleep if I buy a coral and it dies, but I do attempt to create conditions that it could thrive. And that means researching, asking for advice from those with more experience, and making reasonable choices with what I buy. I don't feel foggy, but maybe I'm out to lunch? Maybe with a few more years under my belt I'll feel differently. :)

Definitely agree!

[Aquattro]

I certainly don't consider them objects, and attempt to give them as happy a life as is possible within the confines of my selfish little glass box. I wouldn't let a fish needlessly suffer without aid or a quick exit.

[Aquattro]

Thought we'd get more input into this. Tough crowd...

[Madreefer]

I don't see a problem with someone like yourself or any other person that's been in the hobby for along time who has some experience. I get annoyed at those who are constantly asking the newbie questions (that seem to be stupid questions to us), getting those hard to keep fish. It's those same people that also turn in to self proclaimed experts 2yrs in:lol:
Oh this fish is so cool and you may not be able to keep it alive but I can. I have a Seaclone 150 ya know!
Tough crowd you say? A few years ago there would have been 10 pages on this topic and probably a heated argument or two.:lol:
Any comments Marko? Poor guy took it hard on that one:lol:

[Aquattro]

Tough crowd you say? A few years ago there would have been 10 pages on this topic and probably a heated argument or two.:lol:


I know. It's sad. I open it up for debate and argument, nothing. Every single person on the board (396 when I posted this) should have an opinion.

I guess if I want to spawn any kind of discussion these days, maybe another salt poll. FFS...

Guess I'll just go check for prices on sale posts lol

[WarDog]

I lost my yellow tail damsel today and I feel horrible. So bad in fact that I'll probably head to my LFS tomorrow and grab something else.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

I also tend to love hard to keep fish but there are some that I try very hard to resist buying due to past negative experiences or just from knowing how poorly they have faired for others.

I was recently tempted to keep a Moorish Idol but decided against it because of my high fish bioload and the fact that my largest tank is now "only" a 165g and not the 220g I used to have.

I think both Moorish Idols and Achilles tangs need extremely high flow/highly oxygenated water to thrive and personally, if I had one of these hard to keep fish doing well in my tank, I'd try my best to have it as the last fish I add to that system. I would also never shut off my skimmer for more than a few minutes to clean it or reduce the flow. Would I like to know if flow/high O2 levels are really essential to keeping these fish alive? Yes. Would I risk them to prove or disprove that theory? Never.

Anthony

[Bblinks]

I lost my yellow tail damsel today and I feel horrible. So bad in fact that I'll probably head to my LFS tomorrow and grab something else.

Lol sure got over that one fast :biggrin:

[Samw]

Not sure why but I almost never see people consider nor accept hypoxia as a cause of death when the same fish (even previously established ones) die consistently (overnight most likely) within a week while all others are fine.

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=30777 "What skimmer are you using? None"

[Samw]

Whoops. I misread this thread title. Thought it was Mortality and Fish. Now I see it is Morality. Sorry for going off topic. :lol: Well, in terms of morality, I see it as a bell curve. Most of us are in the middle somewhere but there are always a few few select few who are extreme on each side. :)

[lockrookie]

I really wanted a moorish idol I knew they where difficult almost bought one but then I found my false idol (can't remember the name of it) and it appeased my desire lol for now

My tank just has too many issues to speak of right now but for the most part I can keep my fish alive corals not so much. I've tried a sting ray that lasted 4 days poor guy. Would I get another. Most likely not

[EarthEaterBob]

It is a reality that by being in this hobby, we are directly contributing to the degradation of coral reefs and other marine habitats around the world for collection for the aquarium trade. I'd like to say all my stuff is aqua cultured, but it ain't.

On the flip side, collection for the aquarium trade is a very small fraction of what causes habitat loss and falling fish stocks so, eh :neutral:

Maybe one day we'll only have hand net caught collected in an environmentally sensitive manner and all corals will only come from aquaculture but until then...

[IanWR]

It is a reality that by being in this hobby, we are directly contributing to the degradation of coral reefs and other marine habitats around the world for collection for the aquarium trade. I'd like to say all my stuff is aqua cultured, but it ain't.

I would agree with you if we are talking about remote, uninhabited regions that would be otherwise untouched but for the aquarium trade. If there are such areas I would support a complete ban on all commercial activities including tourism, only allowing authorized researchers access.

Areas that I am aware of where our aquarium stuff comes from (Fiji, Maldives, Indonesia, Philippines, Hawaii, etc) are places that have people who reside there and the reefs are part of their lives. They are not any better or worse at protecting and conserving their local habitat than we are, which is to say that they are terrible. I live in Saskatchewan. How much natural prairie do we have left? Almost none. Might some of it have been kept if there was a monetary reason to do so? You bet! For people who live near reefs the reefs are often their supply of food, building materials, recreation, and a place to dump garbage. If you are concerned about the amount of live rock harvested for the aquarium trade, think about the amount of rock removed to make roads! By making reefs economically valuable to the people who live there I think we can help preserve and conserve, adding a net positive to reefs that might otherwise be destroyed by typical human activity.

[kien]

I've found that most of my fish are highly immoral. They are constantly bickering with one another for food and territory. They don't know how to share at all. For example, whenever I add new fish they usually try to kill it! I have to take extra measures to ensure the safety of the new habitant. Also, my clown fish takes scales out of anyone who gets near their anemone. My 4 stripe damsel bites me and draws blood from my skin every time my hands are in the tank.

I often wish that my fish had higher morals. Maybe it's just me..

[lastlight]

I added a filthy sand-bed for my wrasse to make him happy. He likes to try and kill me through the glass to show his gratitude. #ThanklessMoralReefing

[intarsiabox]

Live Aquaria lists the leopard wrasse as "expert only" but Big Al's had one for $15, it was so cheap I got it anyway. I tried all the recommended things to get it to eat but it wouldn't touch anything so I figured he was a goner. I just started feeding regular small pellet food again in my tank. The wrasse dashed out and gobbled down all the pellets it could and has been fat and friendly ever since. My point being that as long as people are willing to put an effort into a fishes well being then give it a try. An unhealthy tank is just a source of frustration and if someone's fish just keep dying they probably won't be in the hobby long anyway.

[Aquattro]

My first Leopard Wrasse came out of the bag and did great. Lost it a couple years back, so tried again. Went through 6 before giving up.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

I currently have 4 ornate leopard wrasses, 3 female reg. leopards, 1 black leopard. Love them.

[Aquattro]

I currently have none, gave my black away for digging :)

[StirCrazy]

I have no problem with it, did you see the tank I got running now?

http://www.members.shaw.ca/crystalk/tangcube.jpg

Steve

[crimper]

I have no problem with it, did you see the tank I got running now?

http://www.members.shaw.ca/crystalk/tangcube.jpg

Steve

Calling the Tang Police...:bananahuge:

[Samw]

I won't be posting photos of my quarantine container.

[crimper]

I won't be posting photos of my quarantine container.

lol I'm curious what's in there... Dare!

:lol:

[Samw]

lol I'm curious what's in there... Dare!

:lol:


A fish and an air stone. Not a tang though. :)

[Kraken]

I had someone who picked up 5 morish idols. One is eating like a pig!

[Aquattro]

I had someone who picked up 5 morish idols. One is eating like a pig!

Those net caught Vanuatu fish? Better chance, I think