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Aquattro
02-15-2015, 06:15 PM
As many know, due to unforeseen circumstances, I had to essentially abandon my tank for nearly a month. In that month, my very healthy and long kept MI was lost.
I've obtained another, in great shape, apparently net caught, and within 24 hours has been caught nibbling PE mysis.

Looking for any other tips and tricks people have had luck with in getting these guys eating well.
I have someone scouring the beach for sponge, I have some in my sump, will be picking up some clams from the seafood dept today. Nori is loaded in clip.

Anything I haven't thought about?

And just to be clear, this is a "how to feed a finicky fish" thread, not an invite to discuss morality in fish keeping :) TIA for keeping it on track.

Myka
02-15-2015, 06:30 PM
I haven't kept a MI, but there are two at the LFS here that are eating PELLETS. Wtf?!

Aquattro
02-15-2015, 06:32 PM
My last one ate everything. Pellets, nori, mysis, anything that would fit in it's mouth. I know of another member here that just got one that eats pellets already.

Myka
02-15-2015, 06:33 PM
My last one ate everything. Pellets, nori, mysis, anything that would fit in it's mouth. I know of another member here that just got one that eats pellets already.

Nice. I never saw one eating pellets at an LFS only 2 days landed though. They be gooders. I wish my tank was big enough for a MI. It's one of my holy grail fish.

Aquattro
02-15-2015, 06:37 PM
Unfortunately they're very tough. My last one was in the LFS display for over a year, very fat. I'm not happy it died (with my other big fish) during my absence

Samw
02-15-2015, 08:55 PM
Many years ago, I had one outgrow my tank and I only fed it mostly Ocean Nutrition flake, which isn't available here anymore, with the occasional nori and Mysis and freeze dried plankton to supplement it. But I'm sure New Life Spectrum is all you need and some supplement.

Its been a while since I mentioned it on the forum, but here goes. The Idol is the most highly oxygen demanding fish I've ever kept. Angels were my 2nd most highly oxygen demanding fish I've kept. When I've unplugged my aerator/skimmer, after some time I would see the Idol laying on the sand gasping unable to swim, while the other fish are fine (including tangs and angels). It would slowly recover after I turned the skimmer back on. Would have loved to have recorded this on video for people. After my Idol was adopted, one time I left the skimmer unplugged overnight (with only powerheads and aquaclear providing circulation/aeration), the next morning, my well established angel was dead. All else was fine. I just couldn't get enough o2 into my tank (for high oxygen demanding fish) without an air diffuser such as the protein skimmer (I had powerheads and aquaclears going only). It was repeatable as it would happen once or twice more in future years every time I forgot to plug my skimmer back in overnight. It was always the angels, and nothing else, and always found dead the next morning after they were established for a long time. I had a DO meter and found that my morning DO levels were very low even with the skimmer on so without the skimmer running at night, it was just clearly lethal to the fish that require the most oxygen which happens to be the Idol (which luckily was adopted by someone before I had my mishaps) followed by my dwarf angels. Sorry, I know you don't want to discuss anything but diet here but I've been silent on this for a few years already. :) I'm not planning to write about this topic too often so I thought I would try to get this in here. My feeling is that the diet requirement is a bit overrated and I know people will disagree with me. But I'm pretty confident I could keep another one and not be too concerned about the diet and it will outgrow my tank again. Given what I said, I agree that this makes the Idol hard to keep due to its high maintenance and low tolerance for mistakes and should be left to advanced aquarists. :)

Myka
02-15-2015, 09:26 PM
Its been a while since I mentioned it on the forum, but here goes. The Idol is the most highly oxygen demanding fish I've ever kept.

Interesting observation.

Aquattro
02-15-2015, 09:42 PM
Interesting observation.

As Sam and I have discussed offline, I agree. This is what killed my MI and larger angels.

I also agree, based on the one I had, that the diet isn't something magical. It was healthy, fat, active and showed no fear. Ate anything offered, in double portions.

Mine is currently showing down on some PE mysis, and I'm about to add some banana. (Ya, I know....)

Aquattro
02-15-2015, 10:10 PM
Banana not going over huge, but nibbling. He has started eating pellets though, so off to a good start.

Samw
02-15-2015, 11:56 PM
Add some cheap brown zoas as a great treat that they can graze on all day without worry of polluting the tank with food decomposition. If they don't find it right away as a food source, they will eventually. Not needed but will be a good treat to give them something natural to graze on while waiting for their next meal.

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 12:39 AM
Sam, the tank is full of brown zoas, no interest at all.

Samw
02-16-2015, 01:19 AM
No worries, it took mine maybe 5 to 6 months to figure it out. :) Then they were gone in short time.

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 01:22 AM
No worries, it took mine maybe 5 to 6 months to figure it out. :) Then they were gone in short time.

This guy won't be in this tank that long :) Not putting brown zoas in my DT

Myka
02-16-2015, 02:34 AM
This guy won't be in this tank that long :) Not putting brown zoas in my DT

Just a frag Brad...what harm could it do?? ;)

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 02:38 AM
Just a frag Brad...what harm could it do?? ;)

I said as I added a plug of blue cloves :)

I actually have a couple already that came on my rock. But I have zoa rocks in my QT for food if anything wanted them.

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 02:43 AM
I guess this thread will be more of a progress thread on the MI. So far, 24 hours after intro to the tank, he (and his anthias buddies) are savagely eating PE mysis. The MI is also gorging on NLS pellets. I'm hopeful!

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 06:44 PM
All fish seem somewhat less interested in food today. Still eating, but spitting out the mysis. Hmm.

gobytron
02-16-2015, 08:20 PM
My experiences with these fish were similar to that of the copperband butterfly...

Even when I could get them to eat, they would seem to slowly wither away.


I always assumed they had some specific specialized dietary needs that could not be met by mysis or LR foraging.

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 08:52 PM
The long term one I had seemed to do fine on it's diet, I suspect that O2 content of the water plays a significant role. I guess diet is a popular theory on their poor success, so we'll see how it goes.

gobytron
02-16-2015, 08:55 PM
My tanks are always open top with an open sump in a room that is vented outside.

I would never imagine I had low oxygen in my system.

Interesting theory.

I wonder if you could say the same for a copperband?

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 09:07 PM
I thought my tank had lots of O2, but I had turned the pumps down, thinking the lower setting plus return pump plus skimmer would do the job, and lost my 3 larger fish. MI first, then the 2 angels. Low O2 is the only answer I have..

Samw
02-16-2015, 09:10 PM
Makes sense Brad. Your sump with the protein skimmer was highly oxygenated but that oxygenated water was not coming back into your main tank fast enough because of the reduced return flow. Night time deaths of the highest O2 demanding fish would result when DO levels drop at night. For most the easier to keep and less demanding fish, this would not be a problem.

If I turned off my skimmer tonight and only leave my powerheads and an aquaclear running, tomorrow I will wake up with dead dwarf angels but no problems with everything else in my tank including tangs. Happened every time.

Bblinks
02-16-2015, 09:18 PM
Brad, mine wasn't eating anything for a few days until I started putting some garlic extract in the pe mysis, it had a couple of nibbles and after a few feeds it definitely perked up his appetite. Now I am not sure if it had internal parasites or not but the garlic extract acted as immune system and appetite booster. It is now also eating large amounts of purple nori.

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 09:19 PM
Sam, correct. Skimmer is good, but flow back to tank is pretty low. I'm going to rig a small Tunze to agitate the surface at night when pumps are lower

Bblinks
02-16-2015, 09:23 PM
I thought my tank had lots of O2, but I had turned the pumps down, thinking the lower setting plus return pump plus skimmer would do the job, and lost my 3 larger fish. MI first, then the 2 angels. Low O2 is the only answer I have..

Interesting point on the dissolved oxygen level. I will have to keep that in mind.

straightrazorguy
02-16-2015, 09:30 PM
I thought my tank had lots of O2, but I had turned the pumps down, thinking the lower setting plus return pump plus skimmer would do the job, and lost my 3 larger fish. MI first, then the 2 angels. Low O2 is the only answer I have..

Yeah, that's my biggest fear too. I recently bought and installed a Penn-Plax battery-operated backup air pump so I don't lose fish during power blackouts. Sorry to hear about your MI....

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 09:34 PM
Yeah, that's my biggest fear too. I recently bought and installed a Penn-Plax battery-operated backup air pump so I don't lose fish during power blackouts. Sorry to hear about your MI....

I only lost fish, could have been a lot worse!!

christyf5
02-16-2015, 10:26 PM
smaller mysis? my fish won't eat the heads....:rolleyes:

gobytron
02-16-2015, 10:48 PM
Anyone have any research on this or is the current theory based solely on 2 board members shared conversation and experience?

Seems like if proven and not common knowledge, should be a pretty important piece of information for the hobby.

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 10:54 PM
or is the current theory based solely on 2 board members shared conversation and experience?


I think this is all we have. I haven't read anything else about it anywhere. Assuming enough O2 is present, are they still super difficult? Probably..

My DT has flow enough for surfing across the surface, so we'll see where I end up in this trial.

Samw
02-16-2015, 11:05 PM
Haha. I'm tempted to buy a Moorish Idol, put it in my tank, turn off the skimmer for about 2 hours during the day, take a video of the MI dying while all other fish are active, then turn the skimmer back on to see it recover just so I don't have to keep on about it. :) I've seen it 2 or 3 times before.

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 11:07 PM
Sam, I'm a believer. However, that doesn't mean there aren't other factors. I'm hoping that with my "surf tank", I'll have no troubles. He's eating well and seems well settled, so we will see.

Samw
02-16-2015, 11:09 PM
Sam, I'm a believer. However, that doesn't mean there aren't other factors. I'm hoping that with my "surf tank", I'll have no troubles. He's eating well and seems well settled, so we will see.

Yes, other factors goes without saying. But healthy fish all dying during the night (and the fish which I know would be the first to suffocate) while others have no problems. Also, all else constant except for the flow of oxygenated water back to the display tank.

On my tank, I also had surface ripples from powerheads and aquaclear running when the skimmer was off. Not enough.

Samw
02-16-2015, 11:40 PM
Back to food. Looking back, in additional to zoas, mine also devoured: Hydnophora, Candy Cane, and Moon corals.

Aquattro
02-16-2015, 11:44 PM
mine also devoured: Hydnophora, Candy Cane, and Moon corals.

Maybe I'll look for some of these

Samw
02-17-2015, 12:01 AM
Back to DO:

My own DO measurements support a lot of what was discussed here in this article: The Need to Breathe, Part 3: Real Tanks and Real Importance

It's a long article but I'll just briefly post a little bit of it here.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/eb/index.php

Tank 1: "Clownfish Tank"


Test 1: Circulated with powerheads and no skimmer: Morning DO saturation: 16%

Test 2: Aerated with protein skimmer: Lowest DO saturation: 81.2%

Same tank but aerated with airstone: Brought DO saturation up from 51% to 87% in 30 mins.


"
Tank 1 Discussion
The ten-gallon tank containing clownfish has been set up as an unskimmed system with what I consider to be an average stocking density of organisms for a tank of its size. I had assumed (wrongfully) that oxygen was maintained at high levels through the use of two powerheads that agitated the water's surface. However, once the lights went out and photosynthesis stopped, oxygen levels dropped quickly from a high of 78.7% of saturation to a hypoxic low of 16% of saturation. The levels were apparently low enough that each night, the clownfish would leave their anemone and adopt a position just under the water's surface directly above a powerhead. Out of concern, I then monitored the changes in oxygen levels at night using an airstone. Oxygen rose quickly and dramatically. At that point, I added a skimmer to the tank, with the result that oxygen is now maintained at much higher levels, ranging from a high of 130% of saturation to a low of 81.2% of saturation. However, it is only when the lights come on that oxygen reaches saturation or becomes supersaturated. It is notable that there appears to be a period early in the day when oxygen levels are maximal, with a depression to slightly subsaturated levels over the course of the afternoon. Also notable is a slight, but noticeable, drop in oxygen immediately after feeding. This measurement has been made repeatedly and is consistent.
"


"-Aquaria can and do become hypoxic at night and such a state may pose a risk to hypoxia-intolerant organisms.

-Aquaria can and do become saturated or supersaturated with oxygen during the day, and this is a result of oxygen resulting from irradiance of photosynthetic organisms. In no case was saturation or supersaturation measured without photosynthesis.

-Airstones and skimmers appear to be a very effective means of oxygenating small water volumes.

-Powerheads and recirculating pumps do not appear to greatly increase the oxygen saturation state of seawater aquaria.
"

Aquattro
02-17-2015, 12:11 AM
So, thinks to himself, Apex must make a DO meter, right?? Ya, Google the price on that one!! lol

Samw
02-17-2015, 12:18 AM
So, thinks to himself, Apex must make a DO meter, right?? Ya, Google the price on that one!! lol

$700? Sell more frags instead of dumping them onto your lawn.

Aquattro
02-17-2015, 12:19 AM
$700? Sell more frags instead of dumping them onto your lawn.

And another 100 for the module. US. So near a grand. I'll just keep the pumps pumping :) I'm years away from frags lol

Samw
02-17-2015, 12:31 AM
And another 100 for the module. US. So near a grand. I'll just keep the pumps pumping :) I'm years away from frags lol

Ok, just note that powerheads (nor external hang on back filters) really don't oxygenate the water much according to the article and my own tests and results. You really need to break the water surface with really violent splashes that would really make a mess or for ease, just use the skimmer/airstone

If there's a place to rent DO meters on the Island (In Burnaby, there's Hoskin Scientific) you could find out what your morning DO is with your pumps dialed down to its minimum and compare to when it is running at its max. Just take your angels and MI out of the system when you are testing for minimum levels and keep them in other oxgenated tanks (sump?). Although keep into consideration that the levels in the display tank would be a bit lower once those demanding fish are put back in.

Aquattro
02-17-2015, 12:36 AM
The surface of my tank would probably be classified as violent :) I pump from the bottom up with a couple of the pumps, it can't get much more violent and keep the water in the tank. Much more flow than I had in the 90g with all the fish before going into the DT. I think the heavy cyano and hair algae had a part in the low levels at night as well.

Samw
02-17-2015, 12:43 AM
The surface of my tank would probably be classified as violent :) I pump from the bottom up with a couple of the pumps, it can't get much more violent and keep the water in the tank. Much more flow than I had in the 90g with all the fish before going into the DT. I think the heavy cyano and hair algae had a part in the low levels at night as well.

Well, that's the thing, you have lots of flow. But flow doesn't oxygenate water. :) Right now, we're guessing. Once you have the readings, then we won't be guessing. Yes, algae, cyano, bacteria and tons of stuff will consume the o2 at night. But as the article showed, an airstone or skimmer, took care of it.

Aquattro
02-17-2015, 01:25 AM
Breaking the surface is what forces CO2 out of solution, not adding air bubbles. All an airstone does is force water from the bottom to the top, breaking the surface, so a pump doing the same is the same.
I also have a skimmer going, which is a big contributor to off gassing CO2.

An airstone isn't going to happen, too much salt creep and bubbles :)

Samw
02-17-2015, 01:33 AM
Breaking the surface is what forces CO2 out of solution, not adding air bubbles. All an airstone does is force water from the bottom to the top, breaking the surface, so a pump doing the same is the same.
I also have a skimmer going, which is a big contributor to off gassing CO2.

An airstone isn't going to happen, too much salt creep and bubbles :)

Yes I realize that, but you'll need a small water fountain to get the same results as the air stone or protein skimmer. Even hang on back filters which breaks the surface does very little compared to the surface breaking of an airstone. But OK. Maybe you have a lot more splashing at the surface than I thought (which would also result in salt creep).

Aquattro
02-17-2015, 02:04 AM
Maybe you have a lot more splashing at the surface than I thought (which would also result in salt creep).

I can hear it in the next room :) No salt creep, it's centered in the tank.

Samw
02-17-2015, 08:04 AM
And another 100 for the module. US. So near a grand. I'll just keep the pumps pumping :) I'm years away from frags lol

This is the newer model of the one that I use. $349 USD only. Excellent condition.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oakton-DO-110-Dissolved-Oxygen-C-F-Meter-with-RS232-/371257953525?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5670b2ccf5

hillegom
02-17-2015, 05:44 PM
Why not incorporate more waterfalls in the sump between the different chambers? A few more pieces of glass at different heights.

Samw
02-17-2015, 05:53 PM
The problem isn't in the sump. The skimmer is already efficiently oxygenating there. It is when the return pump is set low and the water being returned to the display tank is reduced that is the concern.

Aquattro
02-18-2015, 06:50 AM
Mr MI may be developing Ich, not sure yet. I guess I'll know tomorrow night, at which point I'll treat the tank with CP.
Still not eating nori, which would help relieve stress, I think.

tytown
02-18-2015, 10:44 PM
Interesting thread on oxygenation....
I suppose I should comment on my MI and his feeding habits to keep the thread on track before I get into the oxygenation.
At first my MI was all over mysis and then slowly switched him to seaweed extreme pellets. Once he was eating well I slowly weened him off the seaweed and got him on 2mm nls. Since then I feed a mix of seaweed extreme, nls, and nori which has recently become his fav. He lives with an Achilles who is an ich machine but seems to be healthy enough not to share the outbreak. Had him over 6 months and he is growing so I'm optimistic on his success.
So back to oxygenation.... I'm going to turn my skimmer off to see how my emperor, golden, and MI fair with lower oxygenation.
I'll keep you guys posted!

Aquattro
02-18-2015, 11:00 PM
I'm going to turn my skimmer off to see how my emperor, golden, and MI fair with lower oxygenation.
I'll keep you guys posted!

Be careful. I lost a gold flake, blue face and MI to this, presumably

Samw
02-18-2015, 11:08 PM
Depending on how large the tank is, it could take a few hours. Lights off will increase the o2 consumption by the tank (algae, bacteria, etc).

tytown
02-18-2015, 11:14 PM
20 minutes in and no noticeable difference in fish health.
-emperor is hanging below the feeder ring
-golden comes and goes through the rocks feeding on whatever it is as usual
-moorish is hanging out in th surf picking on anthias as usual.
I'll turn down the vortechs to 70%

gobytron
02-18-2015, 11:17 PM
20 minutes in and no noticeable difference in fish health.
-emperor is hanging below the feeder ring
-golden comes and goes through the rocks feeding on whatever it is as usual
-moorish is hanging out in th surf picking on anthias as usual.
I'll turn down the vortechs to 70%

Good idea...
Not really a control, but at least gives this topic a better sample size to draw a conclusion...

The funny thing is that if somebody with 10 posts, regardless of their actual experience, tried to say that a certain genus of fish was dying in their tank and the ONLY reason could be low oxygen, this board would be all over them telling them to test this, test that and double check everything...

That or condescend for buying a fish that is considered high risk and unlikely to survive in the first place.

TimT
02-18-2015, 11:25 PM
If the MI isn't eating yet you need to bring out the fish crack... Pacifica Plankton. I kept a MI alive with it for 3.5yrs. Big, fat and healthy.

Speaking of oxygen demand I just got back from Hanauma Bay where I observed lots of MI pairs and Achilles pairs all in 4 to 8 feet of water and not a lot of current. Even got side swiped by about 300+ convict tangs as they raided the reef where an Achilles pair were living. Their territory was only about 4' by 6' and they were about 7" long. Think I need an Achilles in my 4' by 8' coral tanks. :-)

Aquattro
02-18-2015, 11:34 PM
Tim, sorry, mine is eating well on a competitor's shrimps :) I may have some plankton in the freezer though, I'll try that tonight.

tytown
02-19-2015, 12:00 AM
An hour in and I see no noticeable change in fish energy.
Threw some nori in for fun and it was the usual frenzy.
Total volume is over 500 gallons so I'll give it another couple hours. My sump turnover is around 8x per hour which could be a significant source of oxygenation but I would assume that with the skimmer off the DO would drop some...

gobytron
02-19-2015, 12:12 AM
One of the most frustrating things about this hobby is the number of variables from tank to tank.

I would imagine that your salt would also play a role in your tanks ability to store oxygen as would it's proximity to outside air...

This could be a pretty neat discovery if it turns out to have some merit.

Samw
02-19-2015, 12:43 AM
An hour in and I see no noticeable change in fish energy.
Threw some nori in for fun and it was the usual frenzy.
Total volume is over 500 gallons so I'll give it another couple hours. My sump turnover is around 8x per hour which could be a significant source of oxygenation but I would assume that with the skimmer off the DO would drop some...

Are lights off? if you have your lights on and have algae, you would be getting O2 from photosynthethis from the algaes in your tank.

Aquattro
02-19-2015, 12:44 AM
Good idea...

The funny thing is that if somebody with 10 posts, regardless of their actual experience, tried to say that a certain genus of fish was dying in their tank and the ONLY reason could be low oxygen, this board would be all over them telling them to test this, test that and double check everything...

That or condescend for buying a fish that is considered high risk and unlikely to survive in the first place.

Regardless of post count, I'm as experienced as the guy with 10 posts in this topic. I do have dead fish with no other explanation, but that's all I've got. I'm not will to try and replicate it to test :)

As for the morality of buying these fish, it's a topic for another thread, which I will bring up when I have more time to type.

Aquattro
02-19-2015, 12:45 AM
Are lights off? if you have your lights on and have algae, you would be getting pure O2 from photosynthethis from the algaes in your tank.

Alternatively, lots of algae will contribute CO2 at night, which is when I lost my fish.

Samw
02-19-2015, 12:47 AM
Alternatively, lots of algae will contribute CO2 at night, which is when I lost my fish.

Yes, that's why for this test, one could turn off the lights to increase the depletion of O2 in the tank. See Eric's clownfish tank test where his DO dropped to 16% at night. And overflows are like waterfalls I guess so that is probably oxygenating the water. If that water is coming back into the display at large volumes, then the display tank is oxygenated no matter whether lights are on or off.

gobytron
02-19-2015, 01:08 AM
Are lights off? if you have your lights on and have algae, you would be getting O2 from photosynthethis from the algaes in your tank.

Even so...
it would seem you two are reporting extreme oxygen sensitivity.

Where do you draw the line for the threshold?

Now it sounds like the average set up with some algae, overflows and such would almost certainly be able to maintain appropriate oxygen levels.

Samw
02-19-2015, 01:11 AM
No not extreme. Most other fish can tolerate these levels because it is not extreme. That's the point. Different fish have different tolerances to hypoxia.

Aquattro
02-19-2015, 01:12 AM
Even so...
it would seem you two are reporting extreme oxygen sensitivity.

Where do you draw the line for the threshold?

Now it sounds like the average set up with some algae, overflows and such would almost certainly be able to maintain appropriate oxygen levels.

I draw it closer than I would have last month. Otherwise "normal" setup, albeit pumps turned less than 30%, lots of algae, lots of dead (large) fish. MI first, then angels. Different evenings. Dog sitter would see fish at last visit, pick out a new body at 9am.

gobytron
02-19-2015, 01:13 AM
I draw it closer than I would have last month. Otherwise "normal" setup, albeit pumps turned less than 30%, lots of algae, lots of dead (large) fish. MI first, then angels. Different evenings. Dog sitter would see fish at last visit, pick out a new body at 9am.

Right now, this is pretty thin guys.

Super interesting though and well worth exploring.

gobytron
02-19-2015, 01:14 AM
No not extreme. Most other fish can tolerate because it is not extreme. That's the point. Different fish have different tolerances to hypoxia.

The fishes you have reported dying have extreme sensitivity.
not sure if you read that right (or I typed it right).

Aquattro
02-19-2015, 01:15 AM
Right now, this is pretty thin guys.

Super interesting though and well worth exploring.

Yup. Agreed. However, I'm not willing to test this, just going to amp up the flow :)

How about we take this over here

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=936465#post936465

MI thread getting a bit off track.

Samw
02-19-2015, 01:18 AM
The fishes you have reported dying have extreme sensitivity.
not sure if you read that right (or I typed it right).

Yup. that's what I said. The fish that are dying are extremely sensitive. But the conditions are not extreme. For example (i'm making these numbers up of course) most fish can survive under 50% DO saturation. Because most fish can survive at 50% saturation, this level is not considered extremely low. However MI and dwarf angels can not. So they are extremely sensitive. I made those numbers up to illustrate my point of course. I would have to measure the DO to know exactly at what point the MI starts to suffocate while all other fish do not. But it is probably at some level that most people do not think their tank is low on DO. DO fluctuates wildly depending on many factors. I've measured 40% before in my old system with airstone skimmer on with no deaths. My old system went as high as 130% during supersaturation by photosynthesis. With my current system, the lowest it'll get is 80% and the max is 98%. I'm sure that when I experienced the deaths overnight with aeration off, DO was well below 40%.

Samw
02-19-2015, 01:24 AM
The fishes you have reported dying have extreme sensitivity.
not sure if you read that right (or I typed it right).

Sorry, you are right. The fish are extremely sensitive. I misread that the first time. The conditions do not need to be extreme.

Aquattro
02-19-2015, 01:26 AM
Ok, no more O2 in this thread, I'm suffocating. hahha

So far, MI doesn't appear to be developing ich as I feared last night. Feeding some ich shield just in case.

tytown
02-19-2015, 02:22 AM
So it's been over 3 hours without the skimmer running and circulating pumps at around 60%.
I can't say as I see any ill effects but I'm not going to carry it on through the night. Maybe someone else wants to try that...haha
Though far from conclusive I would say that I would be comfortable having run my system for a day or two without a skimmer. My fuge lights went on in the last 45 minutes so this adds another angle of discrepancy to the test.

Back to MI eating habits, does yours even go near that Ick shield? I tried feeding that to my display and not even my clown trigger would go near it!!!

Samw
02-19-2015, 03:15 AM
Cool cool. Glad I was wrong on this. ! :thumb:

Aquattro
02-19-2015, 03:42 AM
Back to MI eating habits, does yours even go near that Ick shield? I tried feeding that to my display and not even my clown trigger would go near it!!!

Ya, went right at it. I'm surprised, people told me fish often didn't like it.

Aquattro
02-20-2015, 06:28 AM
Thursday update (it's Thursday, right?). MI and his Anthias buddies are all doing well, eating like pigs.
MI still has the same single whit spot, inclined to think not ich. Not sure, he won't stay still long enough to get a good look.

That's it. Simple update :)

gregzz4
02-20-2015, 06:34 AM
What's this Ich shield we're talking about ?

Aquattro
02-20-2015, 06:35 AM
What's this Ich shield we're talking about ?

NLS food laced with CP

gregzz4
02-20-2015, 07:10 AM
Hmm
Guess we'll keep this info from the newbs :wink:
Don't need any overdoses happening here

Aquattro
02-20-2015, 01:11 PM
Hmm
Guess we'll keep this info from the newbs :wink:
Don't need any overdoses happening here

Kinda late, there's a long thread about it.

reefwars
02-20-2015, 03:13 PM
NLS food laced with CP

Regardless of others opinions in the thread about ichshield , I've recently used it on two seperate systems and coincidence or not no more visible ich and it was bad both times around , I felt like what the hell before I tear down I'll try it out:)

Aquattro
02-20-2015, 03:15 PM
I'm not sure how effective it is, given what the topical dose is, but I figure it can't hurt. I didn't want to treat the whole tank yet, but will if I see any signs that warrant it. So far it's one white dot on the MI that hasn't changed in days. Could easily be something else.

Aquattro
02-21-2015, 05:08 AM
Well, day 6, and I'm calling it ich. Hate ich...

SeaHorse_Fanatic
02-21-2015, 05:28 AM
Me too.

Aquattro
02-21-2015, 05:32 AM
Me too.

Anthony, you have ich?? Must be itchy!! :)

SeaHorse_Fanatic
02-21-2015, 05:34 AM
Tell me about it.

Aquattro
02-24-2015, 03:59 AM
MI is very blotchy today, and not looking well. Did a 50% water change and added carbon to remove any CP. Waiting to see how the night goes.

christyf5
02-24-2015, 06:06 PM
MI is very blotchy today, and not looking well. Did a 50% water change and added carbon to remove any CP. Waiting to see how the night goes.

:neutral:

Aquattro
02-24-2015, 08:00 PM
Much better today after a 50% water change and lots of carbon.

Aquattro
02-25-2015, 03:11 AM
So, no idea really what happened, maybe a reaction to the CP? Tonight, he's fine, swimming and eating and being a normal fish. No marks, no ich spots. Let's see how the week goes.

Skim
02-25-2015, 03:45 AM
Well I did not read all the posts but my first MI was lost a night but from lack of O2 I don't know I believe it was just stress from my Scopas Tang the big bully, he just was on the MI all the time. I must admit the MI was a suck. So what do I do, about 2 months later I see a beautiful MI at the shop and asked can I see him eat and sure enough he was pigging out and what I noticed and all should take note of this HE KEPT HIS GROUND AND EVEN PUSHED A COUPLE OF TANGS A SIDE TO GET THE FOOD. If he sits of to the side and eats what comes his way forget it if he is going in after a bunch of other fish are in your tank already. My new MI I have had now for 5 to 6 months now and is great shape but the best part is he's got guts, just last evening I was looking at the tank and the Scopas took a run at the MI and it was like out of a Ninja Movie, the MI was stopped and all he did was turn onto his side and the Scopas just flew by and MI back up vertical and never missed a beat I mean it did not move forward or back just onto to its side and back up and at a speed that took me a second to think of what just happened. I don't even think twice about my MI his name is Bruce now. The food that I find he likes and most of my fish is NLS Marine Flake and they go nuts for Omega One Garlic Marine Flake.
They seem to like the NorthFin Marine Pellet more then the NLS and I find it tends to drift around more and longer then NLS. I also feed Myis shrimp but my MI seems to love Brine Shrimp. If you got Ick I would give the NLS Flake with Garlic and Omega One Garlic Marine a try. I had a couple of spots show up on my Naso and the Scopas looked a little pale a while back and I only fed then NLS and Omega One for like a week but I remember in 2 days spots where gone and Scopas colour was back fully. The newest food I have been trying is the New Era Grazing Ring. I will put one in at night 3 to 4 times a week and it gives them something to munch on over night.

That's my 2 cents hope it maybe of some help to someone.

All the best.

Skim

kobelka
02-25-2015, 11:58 AM
What is CP? Thanks

Aquattro
02-25-2015, 01:10 PM
What is CP? Thanks

chloroquine phosphate, an alternative treatment for ich, velvet and a couple other things..

kobelka
02-26-2015, 03:38 AM
Interesting. Where might I find CP?

kobelka
02-26-2015, 03:39 AM
Oh and I love the look of MI. Best of luck.

Aquattro
02-26-2015, 04:00 AM
Interesting. Where might I find CP?

Very difficult to get. And expensive. Unless you want a kilo of it :)

Howie
02-26-2015, 04:08 AM
Lol yes definitely expensive, but the new life spectrum ick shield powder has some sort of CP in it. I have picked some up to give it a try in my qt.

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 12:33 AM
Well, this ended poorly. While he was swimming around fine 10 hours ago, came home to find him dead.

WarDog
02-28-2015, 12:41 AM
Crappy news Brad, sorry to hear.
Anything you would do differently next time?

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 12:45 AM
Crappy news Brad, sorry to hear.
Anything you would do differently next time?

Doing the math, I think I may actually lose more fish in QT than not. I think CP bothered this guy, so not sure I'd treat again. My anthias school still hasn't fully recovered from the treatment either, still hiding and not eating.

One thing that bothers me is I had lots of feeder zoas in the tank when I treated, perhaps these released something that set this in motion. I dunno.

I'll try again.

hillegom
02-28-2015, 01:03 AM
Sorry to hear he didn't make it.

reefwars
02-28-2015, 01:56 AM
Doing the math, I think I may actually lose more fish in QT than not. I think CP bothered this guy, so not sure I'd treat again. My anthias school still hasn't fully recovered from the treatment either, still hiding and not eating.

One thing that bothers me is I had lots of feeder zoas in the tank when I treated, perhaps these released something that set this in motion. I dunno.

I'll try again.

while i read the instructions for the ichshield i didnt follow them lol i broadcasted that food by the handfulls in a 500g reef with zoas, sps, clams, anemones etc etc. no issues for me

i do believe that some fish just don't take to meds as easy as some others do.

mikellini
02-28-2015, 02:07 AM
Well I'm a little late, and sorry to bring up oxygen again... But if this is truly the issue, I can't believe someone hasn't suggested reducing temperature. Not sure what you guys are running at, but reducing water temp will reduce oxygen demand by slowing metabolism, and also increase dissolved oxygen. Most corals do fine as low as 76f, so it would be worth a shot

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 02:20 AM
Well I'm a little late, and sorry to bring up oxygen again... But if this is truly the issue, I can't believe someone hasn't suggested reducing temperature. Not sure what you guys are running at, but reducing water temp will reduce oxygen demand by slowing metabolism, and also increase dissolved oxygen. Most corals do fine as low as 76f, so it would be worth a shot

No, this fish death had nothing to do with O2. Tank was super oxygenated. This was MI dying because it's a cloudy Friday.

As for temp, SPS growth is near 0 at 76 from my previous tank running at 76 :) O2 difference over 3 degrees is likely negligible

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 02:23 AM
while i read the instructions for the ichshield i didnt follow them lol i broadcasted that food by the handfulls in a 500g reef with zoas, sps, clams, anemones etc etc. no issues for me

i do believe that some fish just don't take to meds as easy as some others do.

I dosed CP directly, not food (much)

kobelka
02-28-2015, 02:26 AM
Bummer.

gregzz4
02-28-2015, 02:34 AM
Geez dude, rotten luck lately

Any chance your QT is contaminated ? Although you had losses in your DT too ... could something you're using in both tanks be a culprit ? Or was the DT thing an oxygen issue while you were away ( I think you mentioned that )

Maybe hypo next time ?

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 02:41 AM
Geez dude, rotten luck lately

Any chance your QT is contaminated ? Although you had losses in your DT too ... could something you're using in both tanks be a culprit ? Or was the DT thing an oxygen issue while you were away ( I think you mentioned that )

Maybe hypo next time ?

Wondering about dying zoas in QT. Only had issues after medicating, which would have ****ed off the zoas.
DT was O2 related, this wasn't. No cross contamination between tanks. Lost 2 anthias as well.

mikellini
02-28-2015, 02:47 AM
No, this fish death had nothing to do with O2. Tank was super oxygenated. This was MI dying because it's a cloudy Friday.

As for temp, SPS growth is near 0 at 76 from my previous tank running at 76 :) O2 difference over 3 degrees is likely negligible

SPS is pretty nebulous, but if you're talking shallow water acropora from warm reefs, I guess growth would be pretty slow at 76.I run at 77-78, and have no issues.

Oxygen difference over 2 degrees Celsius at our range of temperatures would be around 3.5%. But I'm sure the demand for oxygen at a lower temp is at least that much less, probably more. So not insignificant. But do what you like :) just a suggestion...

Further reading:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/eb/index.php

daplatapus
02-28-2015, 04:35 AM
Sorry to hear about the loss Brad. Always tough not really being able to point to something definitive.

Ryan7
03-03-2015, 02:34 AM
My MI success resulting from the following;

1. No QT. this fish is much too sensitive to any treatments. Furthermore, any QT that has been treated will not sustain any of the valuable food sources it needs in rock, sand ect.. which most people do not keep in their QT's. If the fish is to be in QT, keep it untreated and set it up as mentioning below.

2. Observing this fish in the wild on many occasions on different reefs, I noticed all of their feeding or "picking" was at the bottom of the reef in the rock rubble, no sand. When I set my tank up with this in mind, I made a whole section of the tank with a rubble bottom, about a 2x4' area. As the tank matured, I could see the rubble covered with sponges and other life. When the MI went in, it would not eat anything I added, and I tried everything. It did however graze at the rubble, which I believe sustained it long enough until it eventually started eating what the rest of the fish ate, which took about a week. The best part about the rubble, was that the MI could only eat what it could reach between the rubble, so if it was picking at a sponge, some of the sponge under the rubble would survive to grow back, giving the MI a constant food source, or at least one that wouldn't be decimated.

Had more but have to cut short - baby calling...

Aquattro
03-03-2015, 03:34 AM
Ya, this time QT only for observation, I have fresh rock with things to pick at. If he's good for a week, he's going into the DT.
Lots of flow, enough to pick at in DT to keep him fed until he eats (although the last one ate well within 24 hours).

I'm thinking of building a rubble pile anyway for pods, so that may start tomorrow. Probably use the large reactor media I have kicking around.

Bblinks
03-04-2015, 07:37 AM
Did you pick up another one already? You should skip the qt and place it straight in. I really think if you can put the fish into a tank with little or no aggression it will be inclined to feed and once it starts eating that's half the battle already. Just a thought...

Aquattro
03-04-2015, 01:07 PM
Did you pick up another one already? You should skip the qt and place it straight in. I really think if you can put the fish into a tank with little or no aggression it will be inclined to feed and once it starts eating that's half the battle already. Just a thought...

Have to wait a month for delivery, but will get one. I have a large yellow tang, so will put in observation first. Last one did fine until I poisoned it :)

targa81
03-04-2015, 07:32 PM
I've been through the MI saga many times, for better and worse. Lost one a few months ago that I'd had for years. I would agree that putting straight into DT is the best bet.Sometimes they drop dead seemingly just to spite you though.. The long term successes I've gotten have thrived from day one. Ich is not a good sign in a MI and I've rarely had one recover from this, same goes for the parasites they seem to attract. Very sensitive to any kind of treatment unfortunately.

mikellini
03-04-2015, 09:14 PM
What about a nice bannerfish? Decent substitute for a MI imo

Aquattro
03-04-2015, 09:25 PM
No :) MIs can be kept, lots of examples of it online. I had one that was almost 2yrs in tank. I'll try again, think I got this :)

I will nto just add him to my DT though, that's a bit reckless to the rest of the tank. I have a observation tank waiting with rock and a nice view of the ocean.

mikellini
03-04-2015, 09:38 PM
A nice view of the ocean...thats worse than killing him outright, now you're adding torture to the list haha

Bblinks
03-04-2015, 09:57 PM
What about a nice bannerfish? Decent substitute for a MI imo

There is no replacement for MI. I have looked at them many times trying to convince myself to think of it as an alternative but no chance.

Aquattro
03-04-2015, 10:33 PM
A nice view of the ocean...thats worse than killing him outright, now you're adding torture to the list haha

Just a temp setup, once he goes in the DT, he has view of the TV. Which might be worse !