Someone explain to me this!

[Aquattro]

Ok, I'm opinionated. Everyone knows that. So here's my latest. If you've been in the hobby for more than a few months, you should own your own test kits and not mooch off the LFS.

How is it ok to keep doing this? I know people in 10 years that still mooch off the LFS. Really??? How is this happening?

Who else has an opinion? :)

[Slyguy00]

I wouldn't trust the lfs if my life depended on it. IV had bad luck with other people testing my water for me. That's my opinion

[Reef Pilot]

Who else has an opinion? :)
Are you trying to catch a marlin or a flounder?:mrgreen:

API all the way...:lol:

[Aquattro]

lol, not fishing, just get irked when I see this all the time. Remember my thread about the cost of reefing? I wasn't kidding. It's expensive, and one of the cheapest things in the hobby is a test kit. If you can't afford a test kit, maybe collecting hats is a better hobby. (see? opinionated :))

[RMC]

Ok, I'm opinionated. Everyone knows that. So here's my latest. If you've been in the hobby for more than a few months, you should own your own test kits and not mooch off the LFS.

How is it ok to keep doing this? I know people in 10 years that still mooch off the LFS. Really??? How is this happening?

Who else has an opinion? :)

Opinion or fact? :biggrin:

Other than to verify the accuracy of your own test, no one should rely on the LFS to perform test for you.

[Scythanith]

Your LFS doesn't charge for testing? If not they should be.

[Aquattro]

Your LFS doesn't charge for testing? If not they should be.

I agree. It costs them materials and labour. They should at least recoup costs.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

I usually recommend newbies have the LFS test their water for them. But yeah, after they've been in it for a few months and think they are going to stay in the hobby, then its time to get test kits to do it at home.

Once in a blue moon I'll bring my water sample in to the LFS to get it tested but that's mainly to verify my own. I also get a good friend of mine with Hanna checkers to test for certain elements because those are supposedly more accurate than the Salifert kits I use.

[Aquattro]

Anthony, yes, in the early days, or as a blue moon check up, sure. But once you're in it, you need to own your own stuff.

[Reef Pilot]

Maybe you should have a poll... See how many freeloaders fess up...:neutral:

[reefwars]

anyone have a test kit i can borrow?


seriously..... i want to test ph but a experienced reefer with lots of posts told me to throw mine over the fence and i think a new reefer may have picked it up...so now i need one lol

[Aquattro]

seriously..... i want to test ph but a experienced reefer with lots of posts told me to throw mine over the fence and i think a new reefer may have picked it up...so now i need one lol

Seriously? And you listened to him? Dumb.....

[Aquattro]

Oh, and Denny, I saw a pic of your tank. pH is 8.1. You're good :)

[Samw]

The only thing I test for is DO and if I ever get bad results, it is too late anyways. Haha. But seriously, almost every time I test something, the values are good. I don't really test anymore. Even when I had algae problems, all the water parameters were good and I used Salifert.

[Scythanith]

I don't even care if people have their own kits. As long as they don't expect a free ride at the LFS. The LFS owner is paying for the supplies as well as the time it takes for their employee to do the test and analyze the results.

I think my LFS is something like $2 a test.

[christyf5]

I agree. I remember when I was doing FW and the LFS started charging for water testing. I had my own kits so it didn't bother me any but some people complained so loudly. Just buy the damned kits. At $2 a test why not buy the kit and make it 50 cents a test (or whatever the math is). I can see getting PO4 etc tested but the big 3 you should really have on hand.

[reefwars]

I don't even care if people have their own kits. As long as they don't expect a free ride at the LFS. The LFS owner is paying for the supplies as well as the time it takes for their employee to do the test and analyze the results.

I think my LFS is something like $2 a test.

We entertaind the idea of charging $2 a test ...even posted the sign for a day but we decided we will do it for free but people have to wait until the next day to get their results , which i think its fair as we are often quite busy, I test water at the end of the work day when customers aren't around and it's quiet with more time i then email the results and what I find wrong or how to fix etc.

I have had customers bring me there water up to three times a week lol

For me to do a proper test , and discuss the issues or remedies can take quite some time , especially for a newer reefer and when a guy or girl is standing in line and has to wait for 20mins to buy his frozen food or heater while the lfs employee is testing someones water is kinda frustrating to the others waiting.

It's hard to please everyone but since it's a free service I think it's worked great .
I do push for people to buy their own kits and I always tell People what I think of a certain test or product........I'll flat out say its junk or bottom of the barrel if I feel this is true lol

[mark]

I'm to lazy to mooch so just bought my own

[StirCrazy]

Ok, I'm opinionated. Everyone knows that. So here's my latest. If you've been in the hobby for more than a few months, you should own your own test kits and not mooch off the LFS.

How is it ok to keep doing this? I know people in 10 years that still mooch off the LFS. Really??? How is this happening?

Who else has an opinion? :)

they advertise free water tests, maybe they shouldn't.

for some people who were in there every second day (like us) well lets just say we could have saved 200 bucks in test kits LOL

but seriously the only reason we didn't was because the LFS used hagen kits...
and we knew better than to trust them for salt water.

Steve

[Aquattro]

No Steve, I bought kits when I bought a tank. It's part of the required equipment.

[kamloops_reefer]

I'd say more than half of the people in the hobby aren't ask knowledgeable as some of you experienced and knowledgable people. Saltwater take patience and a thorough understanding of what to do and what not to do.

all too often, 4 months later - people sell their tanks because it looks like crap, and they don't want to commit the time it takes to update it. these are probably the same people who left television raise their children :lol:

another thing - of those that give up, and even those that truck along... probably half of them are cheap.....I can sense people who are cheap and more of a pain in the butt than anything - even on these boards (I'll keep those names to myself)

Kudos to the stores who are patient and spend the time educating newbies. from time to time we stop in at oceanic corals, because that was the store we went to, they helped us out - and I like to return favors, so .... I buy stuff.... even when I don't need to.

aquattro you send ****ed off and grumpy like me. Perhaps we need to have a beer next time I'm in victoria visiting my father :) try not to let them get the better of you

[Chaloupa]

Couldn't agree more...it takes time, product especially if you're using quality test kits, and employee time. I own a small LFS....we were doing it allllll the time for one customer that was totally taking advantage of my staff....and taking advantage of my time and energy with using me to ask about product then buying it used from here or other buy/sell places.....it was a bit much and really drove me crazy...but my staff and myself just want to help people out...sometimes it never pays off.

[Aquattro]

aquattro you send ****ed off and grumpy like me.

Not at all, it's just that rude and cheap annoy me, and I get vocal about it at times (like whenever I'm awake).
I get that some people need help in the beginning, and sometimes you want to double check your own readings that don't make sense. But if you're in this hobby, there are things you should own. Test kits are one of them. The LFS doesn't give you free heaters or salt, why are they giving free test kits, one test at a time.

[jhj0112]

For me, I just can't see myself taking sample water, driving to LFS with my daughters and waiting for the staff to test it...

If I wanna know anything about my tanks ( I have 3 FW and 2 SW), I gotta know now....

this hobby is expensive and I really want to save money (who doesn't?) but this hobby probably isn't for you if you can't spend money on decent test kit...

you can lose a lot more money by not spending small cost on the test kit

My 2cents..

plus it's a good education tool for my 9 yrs old daughter lol

[freeze]

I started off with the standard API when I was FOWLR. Now I have three different test kits for each.....I test twice a month on two kits. They should be close. Only took my water in once and that's when bad stuff was happening and I just couldn't figure it out. Tests are a must even if it's just an API kit. They aren't perfect but it's easy to tell what the bad colors look like. If your going to drop hundreds - thousands in fish and coral in your tank, 50-100 in test kits sounds like a decent investment.

[kien]

Even though the kits are cheap(ish), why not get the store to do it if they are free? People like free. It's a known fact. Some of the tests are also labour intensive. I can totally see why people would have a store test their water. And for those people, so long as the store facilitates it (with free or cheaper test) they will keep coming for them. And why not? It gets people into the stores where they can talk reef and maybe walk out with some new fish food, a net, that impulse buy fish, new skimmer or that fancy new plasma lighting everyone has been talking about!

Having said that, I have never had a store test my water. I'm too lazy to drive there every time I want a test. Now if I could just get Denny to come to my house to do water tests..

[StirCrazy]

No Steve, I bought kits when I bought a tank. It's part of the required equipment.

ya so do I, but when I started buying my hardware, they told me to bring in water for monthly samples (which I didn't ) so I can understand why people would do it though.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

one more thing to mention which may clear it up for you Brad, a lot of stores used this as a loss leader (especially freshwater) so they offer a water test which may cost them pennies due to wholesale on a cheep Hagen master test kit, and while they are doing your test kit you are looking around and end up buying something else. the other reason is they get to know your water so they can deny your warranty if the fish dies.

[Aquattro]

Steve, that's not the true case though, based on comments from LFS owners. They're more afraid to say no in fear that they will lose a customer.
But really, the theme of my rant is not the fear or motives of the LFS, but the hobbyist that feels they get to have a reef tank without buying something that should be considered mandatory equipment to maintain it. I know several people that just feel it's their right to abuse whatever motive the LFS has.

[Reef Pilot]

Kudos to the stores who are patient and spend the time educating newbies. from time to time we stop in at oceanic corals, because that was the store we went to, they helped us out - and I like to return favors, so .... I buy stuff.... even when I don't need to.

+1. If I had an LFS, for sure I would be trying really hard to help out newbies. That's just good business.

Still remember not that long ago (2010) when I inherited a salt water tank with the house we bought (how I got into this crazy hobby). If it wasn't for the LFS in Langley (Nick at the old Fishworld) I probably would have had a tank crash in short order. And he asked (I never asked him) me to bring in water samples. I think I only did that once or twice, and quickly became self sufficient with my own testing. And yes, I bought a lot of stuff from him (until he went out of business).

I first thought Brad was joking (can't tell with him sometimes) with this thread, but now that it seems to be serious, thought I would give my opinion (again,... haha).

And oh, I do use API for some of my more frequent tests where granularity is not that critical and/or the parameter is consistently at the extreme good side. But I do have the more expensive ones, too, to crosscheck if there is any doubt. Saves a lot of bucks.

[Aquattro]

If it wasn't for the LFS in Langley (Nick at the old Fishworld) I probably would have had a tank crash in short order. And he asked (I never asked him) me to bring in water samples. I think I only did that once or twice, and quickly became self sufficient with my own testing. And yes, I bought a lot of stuff from him (until he went out of business).



And this is a perfectly normal progression. You didn't say "hey, they'll do this for free, I don't ever have to buy kits". You used a service, they got a loyal customer, you went on to be self sufficient. All is well in the world.

Oh, and i never joke...(hardly ever).

[Reef Pilot]

Oh, and i never joke...(hardly ever).
And pigs fly,... haha.

[Aquattro]

And pigs fly,... haha.

Fine. You got me :)

[Reef Pilot]

I do agree with your overall premise, though, ie moochers are not cool. Getting a good deal is one thing, but trying to take advantage is another...

[Aquattro]

I do agree with your overall premise, though, ie moochers are not cool. Getting a good deal is one thing, but trying to take advantage is another...

What has really spawned this is long running pet peeve with a guy that was at my house trying to screw me for frags. While he was trying to get free frags out of me, we're talking, and he explains how he doesn't need to buy this and that, since he can borrow stuff, use the LFS's good nature, etc. So every time I read someone suggesting that one should just expect the LFS to provide free time and materials, it sets me off. Hell, most things set me off - lol I just filter most of it :)

[Reef Pilot]

What has really spawned this is long running pet peeve with a guy that was at my house trying to screw me for frags. While he was trying to get free frags out of me, we're talking, and he explains how he doesn't need to buy this and that, since he can borrow stuff, use the LFS's good nature, etc. So every time I read someone suggesting that one should just expect the LFS to provide free time and materials, it sets me off. Hell, most things set me off - lol I just filter most of it :)
Yeah, haven't personally encountered that, but I am sure there are all kinds... Somehow, I don't think those people last too long in this hobby...

I do feel bad for some, though, that I think can't afford it, and almost suggest to them, maybe they should wait until they have a few more bucks before diving in.

Actually, have had more than one person try to pay me more for a frag or clipping,...haha. So overall, have to say that I have met mostly very, very nice people in this hobby.

[Aquattro]

I'm at a point where I usually sell frags/stuff very very cheap, if I even take money at all. And 95% of people are great. Yes, some have chosen a hobby they can't really afford, and i feel bad for them, but some are just cheap. Selling a guy frags at $5, he offers me 3.75 in change. Really?? I gave away a MH setup, saw it posted for sale a week later. Same guy that felt he didn't need to buy test kits, since his buddies and LFS had them. Makes me sad.
Reefing is expensive. It has required spending. If you can't/won't part with the money, it may be the wrong hobby at this time.

[Reef Pilot]

Selling a guy frags at $5, he offers me 3.75 in change. Really?? I gave away a MH setup, saw it posted for sale a week later. Same guy that felt he didn't need to buy test kits, since his buddies and LFS had them. Makes me sad.

Yeah, that is incredible, hard to believe actually. And then trying to sell a free item!! I can see haggling for a $100 item (I might even do it), but for a 5 or 10 dollar frag?? This isn't the type of hobby where you try to save pennies,... big bucks, yes,... haha.

Well, if you encountered this guy, I am sure others have. And they probably aren't all as gracious as you are.

[The Guy]

Yep after reading all the comments "CHEAP" really P---ES me off. I think I had the LFS check my water maybe twice when I first got into SW and then J&L recommended some different options for testing and I went with Salifert and still use that brand, I was having problems with Po4 and Walter offered to check my water with his Hanna tester, wakeup call! So now I have a Hanna Po4 tester. Your absolutely right Brad this is not a hobby for someone that's cheap and does not want to buy there own maintenance equipment to look after a tank properly. As I mentioned already in another thread testing kits are the tip of the iceberg and probably the most inexpensive part of the hobby.
Come on people get with the program or get out of this hobby and start collecting stamps. BTW Brad being opinionated is fine when you speak the truth about a subject what ever it may be. :wink:
The main message is be prepared to pay if you want get into Salt water.

[SiliconGuy]

I can't imagine not wanting to own your own test equipment
for the convenience and consistency aspect that it gives.
Do the same folks also borrow a thermometer from their neighbors???

[lastlight]

Now if I could just get Denny to come to my house to do water tests..

Better free up a few hours :lol:

[spit.fire]

I test my water at the store :D

[hillegom]

I test my water at the store :D

One of the perks :lol:

[spit.fire]

Tbh I haven't tested my water since I set up my tank almost 10 months ago

[Kraken]

Yea, I have a few customers myself who always wants us to test their water. Personally not a huge fan of it, but it brings them to the store and they always buy stuff when they are here so there are upsides to it as well. Those who leave immediately after tho make me sad =(

[albert_dao]

Yea, I have a few customers myself who always wants us to test their water. Personally not a huge fan of it, but it brings them to the store and they always buy stuff when they are here so there are upsides to it as well. Those who leave immediately after tho make me sad =(

lol... I feel your pain!

[reefwars]

Yea, I have a few customers myself who always wants us to test their water. Personally not a huge fan of it, but it brings them to the store and they always buy stuff when they are here so there are upsides to it as well. Those who leave immediately after tho make me sad =(

absolutely , its the only reason we decided not to charge for it.......we were all there once for sure and the majority are just looking for help and assistance:)
and it would suck to lose a customer or get a bad review based on something as small as a water test.


lol we had a thread of what people hate about their stores that had alot of interest and ideas etc brad had said it would be funny to see a store post for what they hate about customers lol i still think it would be funny to see lol (although im not touching that with a 10ft pole lol)

:P

[Kraken]

Yea man. Dont you just hate it when customers pick their nose and put their hand in the water?

[freezetyle]

a guy that was at my house trying to screw me for frags. While he was trying to get free frags out of me, we're talking, and he explains how he doesn't need to buy this and that, since he can borrow stuff, use the LFS's good nature,

feel free to out that person to the LFS, maybe they can talk with them.

[WarDog]

Brad had said it would be funny to see a store post for what they hate about customers lol i still think it would be funny to see lol (although im not touching that with a 10ft pole lol)

Personally, I think this is a great idea!

[lockrookie]

I know of a lfs that encourages you to bring your water in for testing. I personally don't agree with it one should buy your own test kits. But from a business point of view they are offering free testing in the hopes your there anyways may as well buy something before I go home..

[Myka]

There are a few reasons I suggest people get a test at the LFS.

1) Most newbies seem to buy crappy test kits to start with because they don't see the value in good test kits even if the LFS tells them so, they still go buy cheap Hagen kits at ValuPetCoSmart. If the LFS tests their sample, and they see how far off their crap kits are, they are more likely to buy good ones.

2) If someone is testing and it doesn't make sense - double check at the LFS. I did this recently.

3) On CanReef, the vast majority are avid hard coral enthusiasts. This does not reflect the average marine hobbyist to walk in through the door of an LFS. There are a lot of tanks out there that don't need to test "the big three" regularly because their tanks don't use it up and they aren't dosing. Occasional testing can help prevent or pinpoint issues though.

4) Someone is asking for advice here on CanReef, and I don't trust their testing. I'd like them to go to the LFS just so I feel like I have numbers to work with. :lol: Poor testing can be worse than no testing at all.

5) Someone said already that some people can't afford to have a reef tank and he feels sorry for them (was that you Brad? Feeling sorry doesn't sound like you). I think this is the case for many people. There is a difference between being cheap and simply not being able to afford it. There are lots of people out there who can't afford to buy their dogs and cats top of the line kibble, and there are enthusiasts out there that think if you can't afford the best kibble (or raw even) that you shouldn't have a pet. There are lots of CanReefers with similar thoughts. I'm not one of them.

[Aquattro]

(was that you Brad? Feeling sorry doesn't sound like you).

Yes, me. I have my moments. :) I know people that see wonderful and amazing reefs, and get into the hobby to emulate the tanks that inspired them. They just happen to have a minimum wage job, three kids and a dog eating crap kibble. They mean well, and ask the right questions, but the answers usually involve money of some sort. I do genuinely feel bad for these people. They often are mislead by the Internet masses (mostly newbies themselves) into believing you can build a really nice reef on a really tight budget. I suppose it's possible, but not the usual outcome.
FWIW, if going to the LFS helps them, I don't have a problem with that. It's the guys coming to my house for various reasons, parking their Lexus in my driveway then explaining they don't need to spend money because their friend/neighbour/LFS has what they need.

[Myka]

Brad, you summed up the difference between "cheap" and "can't afford it". CanReef is full of idealists, I used to be one. I'm a decade older and more humble now. I think I had more disposable income a decade ago though. :lol:

[WarDog]

It's the guys coming to my house for various reasons, parking their Lexus in my driveway then explaining they don't need to spend money because their friend/neighbour/LFS has what they need.

..and that's why they can have a Lexus. In my limited experience, I've noticed that people who have money are cheap SOB's. Not all, but a good percent. My company does a lot of new homes in British Properties. We're talking $20 million dollar homes with Ferraris in the driveways. Home owners will show up from time to time with a box of Timmies coffee, and actually ask for a loonie per cup. Blows my mind.

[Myka]

..and that's why they can have a Lexus. In my limited experience, I've noticed that people who have money are cheap SOB's. Not all, but a good percent. My company does a lot of new homes in British Properties. We're talking $20 million dollar homes with Ferraris in the driveways. Home owners will show up from time to time with a box of Timmies coffee, and actually ask for a loonie per cup. Blows my mind.

True. The richest (monetary) people I know are also some of the cheapest. I should work on this.

[jason604]

..My company does a lot of new homes in British Properties. We're talking $20 million dollar homes with Ferraris in the driveways. Home owners will show up from time to time with a box of Timmies coffee, and actually ask for a loonie per cup. Blows my mind.

That my friend is the definition of a true hustler lol. Ur lucky they didn't charge delivery and convienience fees

[kien]

So, what are we talking about now? I skimmed the last few pages and all I got was something about Brad, timmies, 20 million dollar homes, and hustlers ?? Can someone send me Cliff notes on this thread ?

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

So, what are we talking about now? Can someone send me Cliff notes on this thread ?

If you're cheap and don't own your own test kits, you too can one day drive a Lexus and live in a $20,000,000 British Properties mansion.

Sorry, that's all I got.:wink:

Anthony

[Aquattro]

If you're cheap and don't own your own test kits, you too can one day drive a Lexus and live in a $20,000,000 British Properties mansion.


If you sell coffee to working class people..

[One_Divided]

I own my own kits, but only test phosphates 1-2 times per year, so therefore, I test it at the lfs.

[mseepman]

I own my own kits and always have...especially since the LFS uses Hagen kits...which means they have no idea what's happening.

[Myka]

I own my own kits and always have...especially since the LFS uses Hagen kits...which means they have no idea what's happening.

I thought he learned better. Oi!

[gobytron]

Interesting.
What is it that got you so worked up about this?

Do you own an LFS?

Also, I remember when I was in the thick of this hobby and probably spending 500 a month at JL aquatics.

I wish I had known I could have just had them do my testing for me then.

[Aquattro]

Interesting.
What is it that got you so worked up about this?


I just like to get worked about about something once a month or so :) Honestly, don't much care, I have kits, buy whatever I need and enjoy the hobby. Mostly get sick of full pages of buy/sell threads on New Posts, so thought we could talk about this.
If there is any grounding in my workedupedness, it's people that continually ask for advice then don't take it because the answer requires a couple bucks investment.
Or, my tank has gone to crap, what can I do? Hmm, what are your parameters?
Uh, I dunno, I don't have test kits...just annoys me more than anything.

[gobytron]

I get that.

Though to be fair, with all the trolling you see in the buy and sell here, it can be some of the most entertaining reading on the site...

[StirCrazy]

Yes, me. I have my moments. :)

:eek::rofl: