Snail Graveyard

[Beverly]

Every couple of mornings, I find another dead snail in a specific spot in a well traveled throughfare under the LR in my 120g. Fish and corals are doing well in this tank and the snails appear to be active and thriving, except for this one spot. Nitrate is 10 ppm and water changes and other maintenance is done weekly.

I think something living in the rock might be killing them :eek: :evil: :cry: I have a 4" well-fed blue sided wrasse in the tank as well as a Brazilian flameback dwarf angel (Centropyge aurantonotus). Neither one has been seen harrassing the snails during the day.

This morning I found a dead bivalve I didn't know I had in that same spot. Any ideas what might be killing my snails?

[trilinearmipmap]

? Mantis

[LostMind]

hear any clicking noises?

mantis like to find/build a hole in the rock and then they stick close to their little nest. They will even bring their meals back to the nest and then leave shells on the front porch (so to speak)

[Beverly]

I've got clicking, but it's from an acro shrimp in a different tank. Haven't heard clicking in the 120g at all, unless I've not been listening closely enough :eek: A chromis and blue sided wrasse sleep in the rock near the snail graveyard. If it was a mantis, wouldn't it go for the fish first?

[andestang]

Any recent additions of LR , maybe with a hitchhiker ? Price of snails that really sucks :confused:

[Quinn]

I maintain they are all suicidal.

[wayner]

Figi Rock?, I had a monster worm living in a rock in the back of my tank, when I broke down my tank for sale, it too was like a snail greaveyard in the rear corner.

I only saw this thing once, and it was at night when I put a flashlight on the tank, it stretched across the whole tank, no word of a lie it was probably 24" long and was still embedded in the rock in the rear corner, it had 2 antannas, after doing a bit of research, it turned out to be the same worm that Steve Weast (Reef Central) had in his tank, except his was about 6 feet long maybe more can't remember, his worm was eating softies too and was living in the plumbing.

I hope you don't have this worm cause there hard to find, when I was removing my rock for sale of the tank, it was partially hanging out a large piece of figi rock in the rear corner, the person who bought the tank wanted the rock & the worm & I was more than willing to let him have it.

Watch out for the Dog!

[andestang]

I maintain they are all suicidal.
:lol:
I only saw this thing once, and it was at night when I put a flashlight on the tank, it stretched across the whole tank, no word of a lie it was probably 24" long and was still embedded in the rock in the rear corner, it had 2 antannas, after doing a bit of research, it turned out to be the same worm that Steve Weast (Reef Central) had in his tank, except his was about 6 feet long maybe more can't remember, his worm was eating softies too and was living in the plumbing
:eek:

[Aquattro]

I'm also going to guess a worm. Are the snails covered in slime at all? I had a 2 foot worm that would drag snails back to the same spot once or twice a week. I got really suspicious whenI found 2 in the same night. Nasty worm!!

[Beverly]

Put in some new Fiji rock about 2 months ago, problem only began about 2 weeks ago, though. Freaking scary about the worms you guys are describing :eek:

I set a trap just now with mysis as bait. A medium sized bristleworm poked its head out briefly. Must have seen the blue sided wrasse coming to inspect the rest of his supper because it disappeared real quick :razz:

Wrasses will eat bristle and other worms, right?

Anyway, the wrasse has been very persistent with the trap and has managed to move it :eek: Will let you know if I catch anything (besides the wrasse :evil: )

[Richer]

Creepy :eek: . Keep us updated!

-Richer

[Beverly]

Brad,

No slime on the snails. What did you do with your worm to get rid of it?

[Aquattro]

Brad,

No slime on the snails. What did you do with your worm to get rid of it?

Don't know that I ever did. I took the rock out, socked it in club soda, (it was 35# rock), I smashed it into about 5 chunks, put it in a smaller tank to keep the worm out of my tank, and may have eventually given it to Steve! I never did catch it.
I set a trap one night with a small glass tube. It dragged the tube back to it's lair, about 10" away! The name starts with an O, can't recall at the moment!

[wayner]

The tank had been set up for a year & half before I noticed the worm, must have been living in the rock from day one, never bothered any of my clams or acros, but come to think of it, I did have a blue linkia go missing along with a couple of fish & of course snails here & there.

Must of had plenty to eat, if it does turn out to be a big honkin worm, try to figure out what rock it's living in then remove the rock, I was told to pour carbonated water over the hole where it lived & it would probably leave the rock.

I only saw the one in my tank once, it was brownish, with orange/reddish bands running alonside its body with 2 antenae & lightening fast, when I shone the light on it it retreated instantly back to the rock.

[wayner]

Beleive the name is Oenone Fulgida, Dr. Ron Shimek wrote about it in 4 Marine Fish & Reef 2004 Annual.

[andestang]

Possible Oenone Fulgida. Have pincher like jaws and feed on snails and clams. They are nocturnal and can be 2 feet or longer. Just like Brad said, need to find the rock, remove it and use carbonated water or hypersaline water. Need to get the whole body as thwey can regenerate if broken. Just a thought :confused:

[Aquattro]

Possible Oenone Fulgida.

Yup, that's the one.

[StirCrazy]

Brad,

No slime on the snails. What did you do with your worm to get rid of it?

he gave it to me :rolleyes: although I cannot pin a snail death on my tank on it but I have seen it. big ugly didn't sleep for 3 days :mrgreen:

Steve

[EmilyB]

big ugly didn't sleep for 3 days :mrgreen:

Steve

A worm with insomnia? :razz:

[Aquattro]

Steve, that big bristle worm isn't the same worm. Mine was thin and smooth.

[Beverly]

need to find the rock, remove it

Oh, good :confused: Just set up three new tanks and have taken down two of them already to fix various problems. Now I gotta take down the third tank for some freaking scary worm :evil: Will be on the look out for this sucker for sure :2gunfire:

[Aquattro]

Bev, the worm we're talking about wraps the snail in a slimey mucous. If you don't have slimey snail shells, you likely don't have this worm.

[Beverly]

Brad,

How long does the mucous stay on the shell? I leave the shells in the tank for a few days before removing them because they're in a hard to get at place. Maybe they have mucous, but it goes away before I get the shells out.

I'm hoping it's some kind of crab that will take the bait I've set out. Most crabs are relatively easy to catch ime.

[StirCrazy]

Steve, that big bristle worm isn't the same worm. Mine was thin and smooth.

oh, hmm was that the one that I had the pics of it streached across the tank trying to get the krill out of my brain? made the slime tunnel accross the sand. redish about 3 to 5mm accross and segmented?

Steve

[Beverly]

About an hour after lights out, I took the flashlight to the dead snail tank. Found an itty bitty light coloured crab, about 5mm across its back, about 2" from the mouth of the trap. As well, at the other end of the tank, found a large hairy legged crab with black claw tips. Inside the trap were flying bugs, two or three about 2mm long and white, and one large dark one about 4mm long. I've seen the large dark one before and had it IDed by Dr. Ron at RC as a harmless detrivore. All in all, a pretty exciting evening :razz:

This morning, though, I got quite a haul out of the trap. TWO crabs, one a 2.5cm across the back red eyed crab and the other a 1cm across the back crab that had become a midnight snack for the larger one. Have had red eyed crabs before and didn't have a dead snail problem though.

Also this morning, the bivalve shell is missing and the two dead snail shells that were there for the past few days have been moved.

Chris says he just heard some clicking in from that tank :eek: So, going on the premise that there's a mantis in there, how do I catch it?

[StirCrazy]

are the snail shells cracked? that is usaly a tell tail sign for a mantis.

Steve

[Beverly]

Steve,

Not cracked and not slimey, either. Maybe Chris heard the acro shrimp from the other tank, which also clicks. But if it was a mantis, how would I catch it?

[danny zubot]

I any of you have a picture of this worm I'd like to see if it resembles one that is living in my tank. No mishaps yet but sure is an ugly thing.

[muck]

Bev,

I found a few links you can check out...
The last link is mostly just info about them though.
HTH :biggrin:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6279/LettersMantisShrimp.html

http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/pest/catch.htm

http://www.togar.de/English/aqua/mantis_shrimp.htm

[danny zubot]

Those Mantis shrimp are freeeeky

[Beverly]

Thanks, muck :cool:

So from the reading, a small jar covered with plastic wrap isn't going to do it :confused: The two L bottle traps sound like an engineering degree is a prerequisite :eek: Gotta think this whole thing over...

Thanks again :smile:

[muck]

It doesn't have to be hard... :biggrin:
If you cut a bottle like shown below its super easy!
(Any kind of plastic bottle will do.)
Good Luck!!


http://www.seahorse.org/library/articles/DIY/images/raybottle5.gif

[Beverly]

How does the shrimp not climb back out of the hole with that design?

[kris_willard]

Too stupid?

[muck]

9 times out of 10 they will not be able to figure it out.

[Quinn]

Like a minnow trap. Even when there's 50 of them in there, they still can't get their act together and escape. :cool:

[Beverly]

Okay! Sounds like a plan, then :cool: Just gotta make sure I set the trap after lights out so the wrasse doesn't get caught :lol:

[jgoldsney]

worm pictures

http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_worm.htm

[Beverly]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[andestang]

:crazyeye: :eek: So how are ya gonna sleep now Bev ? :wink: Hope this is not the case :confused:

[wayner]

That's the one that was in my tank, this one doesn't leave mucus behind, at least I never saw any.

[Beverly]

Ande,

From the sound of things on Steve's page, his worm ate soft corals, so maybe I'm going to be lucky and not have that worm or any worm other than bristleworms, which I can handle more or less. I can't see a bristleworm killing snails, but I can see them eating snail leftovers because they are detrivores.

I've got muck's trap made and am waiting for lights out. Actually, I'm going to put in my glass jar trap as well, so I'm going to be covered in a couple of ways :cool:

The scary and most difficult part is going to be doing flashlight duty because it's not going to be easy seeing the hole of origin in a 120g if the culprit is a worm.

Wayne,

How did you get your worm out of your tank, and how big was it?

[bulletsworld]

worm pictures

http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_worm.htm

:eek: :eek: :eek: EEK!



Totally off topic but, that web site you gave, took a look at the other pic's there. WOW! The guy has got an AMAZING TANK! WOW! MY DREAM TANK! Awesome aquascaping! :razz:

[Aquattro]

Yes, Steve's tank is pretty famous and popular.

[Beverly]

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :2gunfire: :2gunfire: :2gunfire:

I still don't know what's killing our snails :evil: We made and baited the plastic bottle with PE mysis one night, but got nowhere. That style of trap is so light, it moves around and probably scares off the predator, so I got rid of it :confused: I will get two new plastic bottles this morning and cut them into traps and bait them each with all the dead snails we've got in the graveyard. To prevent the trap from moving around, I think we should probably secure it in place by butting rock up against it.

Anyway, on other nights, we have baited a small glass jar covered with plastic wrap leaving a small opening and have seen a huge bristleworm go for the PE mysis. Most mornings with the glass jar trap, the mysis are gone and no snails are dead.

Last night we did not set any traps. THIS morning, my favourite snail was found dead. It was a hitchhiker that was about 4 times the size of any snail I've ever seen and only came out at night :cry: :eek: :evil: This snail came in on the same rock that the snail killer came in on.

And we still hear sharp, but fairly quiet clicking, often after lights out, but for the past few days we hear it during feeding times especially in the morning.

I'm stumped. Could the monster sized bristleworm be killing these snails and the clicking be from a pistol shrimp, or do we indeed have a mantis?

Any and all suggestions, opinions, comments are welcome.

[Delphinus]

Well, I'm not familiar enough with the specifics of your situation but, like Quinn hinted, sometimes snails just die. Are you sure they're being predated upon and it's not some kind of snail disease? I have noticed that sometimes when one goes, several others shortly follow (not unlike when a clam goes actually). It's frustrating sometimes.

[Beverly]

Tony,

Yes, could be some kind of disease, or they are just dying.

Went into the graveyard to pick up the dead snails to bait the new bottle traps. I picked up the hitchhiker snail and it started to move around :smile: So I put it on the bottom of the tank (BB) and it crawled away :biggrin: What I can't figure out is why it was so close to some rock, yet didn't reach up and grab onto it :confused: Will keep an eye on this snail to see if it turns up dead at some later date.

Also, I baited the traps with some PE mysis. Just waiting for tonight to put the traps in place :2gunfire:

[Quinn]

Bev how big is the snail graveyard?

[Beverly]

Quinn,

It's a rather small area on the left side of my tank under a throughway I made for the fish to swim. Area must be about 4" x 4". Have also found one dead snail directly behind the rock throughway at the back of the tank. In all there have been one bivalve and about 6-7 snails found dead in this area. It is the same place where we hear the clicking (sharp, but not too loud) as well as where the HUGE bristleworm lives.

Turkey basted the tank today to get ready for the water change and other maintenance we do on Saturdays. Lots of clicking as the crud entered the water column.

[muck]

Any luck catching the culprit yet Bev?? :confused:

[Beverly]

No luck, yet, muck :evil: Have a trap baited with a few dead snails in the tank for the last two nights. Maybe I need to give it a few days.... One dead snail found yesterday, though, and added to the trap :cry:

Still here sharp but fairly quiet clicking throughout the day :confused:

[trilinearmipmap]

What about putting a snail in the "kill zone" at night and watching with a flashlight?

[Beverly]

What about putting a snail in the "kill zone" at night and watching with a flashlight?

Contrary to the rumour that I am one of the undead, I actually sleep at night :mrgreen:

We have, however, staked out the kill zone several nights with flashlights and only saw a large bristleworm. Once the BW saw the light, so to speak, it never came out again during the other times we have watched.

[Bob I]

Just to add something to the mix. There is a chance the snails do not like BB tanks. The reason I say this is because I bought some Cerith snails a few days ago. I put some in my sand bottom tank, and they took off right away. I put three into my 15G BB tank. They did not move, they did not come out at all for two days. I moved them into a sand bottom tank, and lo and behold they took off right away. :eek: Does that tell us something. :question:

[Samw]

What kind of snail is dying? Do you have different types and is it the same type that is dying?

[Quinn]

Just to play with what Bob said a bit, maybe they're dying and the current is simply dragging their shells into that one spot?

[LostMind]

Bob, I have about 50 ceriths in my bb and they are rocking along...

[Beverly]

What kind of snail is dying? Do you have different types and is it the same type that is dying?

Sam,

I have two types of snails, astrea and margarita. Both have been found dead along with one 1.25" bivalve.

BTW, was out with the flashlight last night and found two other large bivalves on the other side of the tank (120g), high up in the rock :biggrin:

[trilinearmipmap]

I'll lay 3 to 1 odds on the huge bristleworm.

[Old Guy]

I have a conch that loves snails. Just spent another $46 for astreas. Good thing it only eats a couple a week :rolleyes: .

[Beverly]

I have a conch that loves snails. Just spent another $46 for astreas. Good thing it only eats a couple a week :rolleyes: .

Egads :eek: No conch here, no sandbed either.

trilinearmipmap,

Could possibly be that huge b-worm. But how the heck do I get rid of it without taking my reef apart :eek: On the other hand, I've had b-worms that big in other tanks, BB and with sandbed, and not had a succession of snails killed.

Still got that trap set with the dead snails. Nothing seems disturbed in the trap over the past 2 days, and no dead snails either.

[trilinearmipmap]

I have read about a trap that may work for bristleworms. It was made for catching Isopods but it would probably catch bristleworms too.

Take some clear rigid tubing 1/2" size or so. Put the bait in the middle. Plug each end with loose cotton batten.

Anyway it's worth a try.

[Quinn]

I have a conch that loves snails.

Got a photo?

Have you tried feeding it T&T cold water snails?

[StirCrazy]

I have a conch that loves snails.

sounds more to me like you have a welk that was sold to you under the false ID as a conch.

Steve

[Quinn]

That was my first thought, but there are carnivorous conchs as well. A photo might help identify it.

[StirCrazy]

That was my first thought, but there are carnivorous conchs as well. A photo might help identify it.

don't you love it when a thread turnsinto a "who done it" dinner theater :mrgreen:

Steve

[Beverly]

OMG!!!!!!! WE GOT IT!!!!!! :eek: :evil: :biggrin:

Just before we "thought" we were going to bed, we took a flashlight to the graveyard (that had been cleared of all bodies). And we found a margarita snail tipped over. Strange, I thought, because margaritas are well known to be able to right themselves compared to astreas :confused: Then I looked further into the cave, and there was the HUGE b-worm heading right for the snail :eek:

We removed the lights and glass top, got a glass, a long plastic stirring spoon and the serving tongs. With the flashlight, a little yelling caused by the fear of this thing, the spoon and tongs, we GOT THAT SUCKER :2gunfire:

Now, I'm almost positive it was the b-worm that was killing the snails, but we will be vigilant and continue to watch the tank over the next few days.

The b-worm is in a glass in the sink. If I get a chance tomorrow to take pics, I'll post them. OMG, I'm so freaked that we got that close to that monster to actually get it out :eek: OMG, it's in a glass in the sink :eek: :eek: OMG :eek: OMG :eek: OMG :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Beverly]

Quick update.....

The worm was injured and I couldn't let it slowly die in the glass overnight, so we euthanized it. Sorry, there won't be any pics :sad:

[Cap'n]

Congrats!

Just how big is "huge"?

[AJ_77]

Hey, it's a worm - not to worry. Good catch. Hope you got your culprit! :biggrin:

[Beverly]

Just how big is "huge"?

When not extended, the worm was only about 4.5" and .25" in width. When going for the snail, it extended to about 7", but I'm sure I saw only about half of its body.

Alan,

Don't know if we caught the culprit :confused: We weren't looking at any other part of the tank other than where the worm was. But on the other side of the cave near the back glass, where we have found a few other dead snails, I found another dead margarita this morning :frown: :cry: Don't know if that snail was there last night before we caught the worm, or if it was killed (or died on its own) sometime later in the night. So, I think we still have a bit of a mystery on our hands :confused:

[StirCrazy]

Beverly, when things die, snails, clams, ect. or rather are dieing, they release chemicals that will alert other "cleaning critters" like worms, that they are doing so. this will bring out worms carnivorous snails ect to start munching on the dieing critter. I don't feel that the size of that bristle worm is you culprit, I could be wrong but it is my gut instinct.

You mentioned that the snail was a Margareta snail... have all the dead snails Margareta's or the majority of them? from personal experience I find the life of Margareta snails are very short in our tanks with the odd exception. this is mostly because they are not a tropical water snail and our tank temps are actually to high for them so they seem to die off rather fast. The slime worm Brad was talking about and that I think I have seen a few times in my tank was stretched through a mucus tunnel on the sand over a distance of 14" and he still had the majority of his body in the rock from what I could tell.

So you might have had a baby one that is just starting to be able to get snails, or you could just have a opportunistic feeder getting a meal from a dieing snail.

Steve

[muck]

Still here sharp but fairly quiet clicking throughout the day :confused:
Glad to hear you finally caught that huge bristle worm...
but,
As far as I know Bristle Worms don't click.
makes me think something is still lurking in the shadows and dark tunnels of your rock... http://www.muiscontrols.com/ryan/icon20.gif

[Old Guy]

sounds more to me like you have a welk that was sold to you under the false ID as a conch.


It is a conch for sure. Allen at J&L sold it to me for 2 bucks. It was Darren's(DJ88) last day working there. Of course nobody there knew anything about it. It has a shell like a queen but it's snout is pointed. Now I know that's for peeling snails off the glass or rocks :rolleyes: . I will keep feeding it as it's appetite is not huge.

Have you tried feeding it T&T cold water snails?

Not yet but maybe soon.

Congrats on your catch Bev. At least I know what is killing my snails. I hate mysteries.

[Beverly]

Steve,

Bristleworms, large and small, are oppportunistic scavenger feeders, as far as I have always understood. I agree that I may have only caught the animal that was "cleaning up" after the kill, and it sort of bothers me that I may have caught and killed an animal that might have be beneficial to my tank overall :confused: I wonder, though, why the killer would have killed the snail then left it only half eaten and out in the open in the cave. I would have imagined a mantis would have dragged the snail back to its liar. But the worm wouldn't have to, it could just partially come out of its hole to kill then feed.

Looking at the snails that have been found dead, yes, most of them have been margaritas. However, I have margaritas in my three tanks, all bought at the same time from the same lfs, and tank temps for all three are at 78-79F. The other two tanks have not experienced any margarita deaths, so I have to assume something particular to the 120g death tank is doing in the snails and the bivalve.

After reading your post, I took a look at the activity levels of the snails in the 120g, both margaritas and astreas. The margaritas are chowing down like there's no tomorrow on the algae on the glass. They are definitely more active than the astreas in that tank, which has always been the case when I've had both astreas and margaritas in the past. As well, I have never had a successive die off of margaritas in the years I've kept them in my tanks as I am having now.

So, really, I'm hoping the worm we caught last might was the killer. If not, I don't know how long it will before we discover what animal, if any, is doing in our snails :sad: I suppose only time and vigilance will tell if the b-worm was the culprit after all, or if something else is killing them, if we ever find out what the cause of their deaths is :confused:

[Quinn]

I hope you did catch your killer, if there is one, but I have to say, I doubt it.

I had a bristleworm that was about a foot long and I don't think he was ever a snail killer (I didn't have real issues with SSDS (Sudden Snail Death Syndrome)). He did consume another organism once that was exactly his size, in its entirety. I watched him swallow it, it was like a snake eating a rat. Probably the most disgusting thing that I ever witnessed in my tank.

[Cap'n]

Bev, are all these snails that you're finding dead carcasses or empty shells? Unless the snail is consumed then I doubt you have any killer at all.

[Beverly]

Bev, are all these snails that you're finding dead carcasses or empty shells? Unless the snail is consumed then I doubt you have any killer at all.

The one we found last night, along with the worm, and the one I found this morning were carcasses. The others were picked clean as far into the shell that I could see. However, the ones that were picked clean still had a "dead" smell to them when removed from the tank, so there must have been some tissue way back in the shells that I couldn't see.

[DiscusZ]

I was going to say Conch as well I have 2 in my tank and they have eatten all my snails. I think I am going to cach the conches and move them to my fuge so I can get more snails

[Bob I]

I was going to say Conch as well I have 2 in my tank and they have eatten all my snails. I think I am going to cach the conches and move them to my fuge so I can get more snails

What kind of Conch :question: I have a Fighting Conch that has no interest in snails at all. BTW he is over 2.5 inches long. :eek:

[Azilla]

I have a snail grave yard and clicking. I also have 2 conchs but they dont do nothin to my snails.

[Quinn]

This has the makings of another of those reefing rumours. Let's get this straight.

From what I've read, over 100 species of "conch" have been described. A similar number of whelks have been described. In addition, there are a number of other gastropods that resemble these two groups fairly closely.

Collectors are fairly fond of throwing "miscellaneous" inverts into orders, supposedly without the permission of the shops. Regardless, they seem to arrive here in significant quantities, sometimes in certain stores more than others. We know that generally stores do not take the time to identify these animals and check up on their diet.

The conchs we actually want are typically Strombus gigas (Queen conch) and Strombus alatus (Florida fighting conch). Although there is a dearth of information on the web, the experience of anyone I know of who has confirmed that they own either of these is that they are strict non-predatory omnivores (detritus eaters), or at least, do not predate anything we know of in the aquarium. I had a Strombus luhuanus (strawberry conch) and have no reason to believe it ate anything but dirt.

On the other hand, I've seen photos of many gastropods on RC and RDO that were reported to attack other invertebrates and cnidaria, and although I am not an expert, comparisons with photos of the above-listed species on reputable sites indicated that these were species other than those typically accepted as suitable.

Therefore I would caution anyone against saying "my conch ate my..." It is possible to positively identify many of these animals based on images and reports on the web, and I feel this would be a worthwhile endeavour for anyone owning one of these animals who is worried about what it might do. Obviously this is not an exact measure but it's better than perhaps proliferating the idea that any animal labeled "conch" is either a time bomb or on the flip side is never going to cause any problems whatsoever. Perhaps even more importantly, I feel that shops should take it upon themselves to attempt to identify species they receive, willingly or not, in order to protect their customers' tanks. When was the last time any of us saw an animal in a store labeled "unsuitable for reef tanks"... :rolleyes:

http://data.acnatsci.org/conchnet/
http://www.gastropods.com/

[Bob I]

I would be very much inclined to agree with Quinn :eek: , and also add that from what I have seen I have never seen a Bristleworm of ANY size attack anything living. I have some very large Brisleworms, and have never lost anything to them. :rolleyes:

[Beverly]

Will be updating daily so I can keep a record of events as they happen....

No new dead snails overnight. Of the two snail carcasses, one was tipped over (probably by the snail that I saw next to it this morning) but nothing eaten out of it, the other carcass is in the same place. None of the three snails in the trap were disturbed. Still here the sharp but quiet clicking in the tank throughout the day and evening.

[Quinn]

The clicking isn't a piece of equipment is it?

[AJ_77]

Was it mentioned earlier in this thread that some crabs can click too? Got a new piece of live rock with a small green crab in it, and that one clicks.

[Beverly]

Another update (sheesh :confused: )....

The tipped over caracss was gone when I checked the tank three hours after the last update. Looked all over the tank, but couldn't find it. Had lunch, did an errand, then came back to look for the carcass again about an hour ago. Found it about two feet from its original position and picked clean :evil: Original position was at the back of the tank. Found position was about a foot from the original graveyard in another cave/throughfare. The trap was a barrier between the graveyard and the found position. Since the trap was only collecting detritus, I removed it, making one unobstructed throughfare under the rock across the whole 4' tank as it had been before setting the (useless) trap.

Also kind of strange is our blue sided wrasse missing a scale on its right side since late last week, and one of the scales on the right side of the flame back angel has been pulled out of place since early this week :neutral:

Haven't heard ANY clicking this afternoon since discovering the picked clean carcass.

DANG!!!!! I'm so freaking frustrated :eek: :evil: :frown:

Quinn,

Clicking from equipment was the first thing we ruled out, thinking it was the heaters going on and off. Not so.

[DiscusZ]

Well I have seen on 3 occasions where the Conch's long mouth was between the trap door of a snail, and when I separated one of them the smail was eatten. I know what your going to say next, that the snail was dead and the conch was doing a cleanup job.. Read on :) The snail was not already dead as both were on the glass at the time. I have seen this happen a few times


Explain that one :biggrin:

[Cap'n]

It's probably a welk, they look amazingly similar.

[Bob I]

The obvious answer is "stick to Fighting Conches". You would then be certain it would not go on the glass. Any Fighting Conches I have had were perfect. :mrgreen:

[Delphinus]

I have had what was sold to me as a "fighting conch" and one as a "strawberry conch." Both have eaten nothing but the diatomaceous covering you get on the sand. Unlike worms who will move in to clean a dead or dying animal, these two will not touch anything but dirt.

My fighting conch has never left the sand. Never on the rocks, never on the glass. The strawberry will make occasonal attempts to climb the glass but never goes higher than 1". Not really a climber. Queen conches, very similar to fighting conches, except that they grow to the size of a football, can and will climb glass and rocks. Anyhow, point being, if you see a "fighting conch" on the rocks or the glass, then it is not really a fighting conch - it's something else.

There are carnivorous and predatory conches and whelks, and probably a host of other kinds of snailish kind of things who will capture and devour other snails. There are so many different species and to the untrained eye, really, they're indistinguishable. You have to rely on the word of the vendor (who has to rely on the word of their distributors, collectors/divers, etc. etc.). And I'm sure there are at least a dozen species that are sold under the monniker "fighting conch" that .. well, aren't. So you have to watch these guys fairly closely and make your own judgment call.

[Bob I]

Yes, Fighting Conches have that big keel like thing they use to propel themselves (Quinn has the name for that). They would fall right off the glass using that thing. :biggrin:

[Quinn]

Operculum. :mrgreen:

[whaase]

It sounds like your very own Bermuda Triangle :smile:

Walter

[Beverly]

It sounds like your very own Bermuda Triangle :smile:

Walter

ROTFLMAO :lol: :mrgreen: :eek:

Didn't update yesterday, but did find the second carcass moved from the day before, though I couldn't see if it was picked clean because it was under a rock and out of view.

Then, in the late afternoon, found another snail dead and picked clean about a foot and a half away from the graveyard under the tank-length throughfare. After lights out, I got out the flashlight to see if I could find the thing doing all the clicking. Didn't see it and also couldn't find that dead snail.

At least this tank doesn't have bubble algae.......knock on wood :eek:

[Samw]

Maybe you can borrow a video camera (if you don't already have one), and set it up to record during the night with a moonlight or actinic on and then view the tape in FF mode and wait for something to show up. It could be that the snails just died and the bristle worms dragged them back to their area to eat.

[Quinn]

Bev have you tried removing the rock you believe the culprit is in, for closer observation? You may have no other choice now.

The scale loss of your fishes may be unrelated, they may simply have been getting a little rambunctious and scrapped against a rock. On the other hand, perhaps something scared them at night. I will say that I've found that when a fish is actually attacked by something, they consistently seem to loose pieces of fin, not scales, but that's my experience with a sample size of two individuals.

I'm beginning to think that the only way to be really safe is to start with base rock. Or maybe live rock that's been circulating through the hobby for several years.

[Bob I]

Bev have you tried removing the rock you believe the culprit is in, for closer observation? You may have no other choice now.

That is a good idea. That is a way for Bev to have another tank :biggrin: I for instance run a 15 in which I keep some zoos for sale, along with rocks that tend to grow Aiptasia. That way the rocks are under observation, and isolation. I can then work on the Aiptasia until it is eradicated.
BTW, I have a 20H just sitting around you could use. I can scare up lights, powerheads, heaters etc. to run it. :eek:

[Beverly]

This is happening in my 120g with probably 140 lbs of rock, no sandbed for the critter to leave tracks on or a hole in the sandbed under a particular rock. The clicking comes from the near the centre of the tank, but from which rock, I haven't the faintest idea. I flashlight that tank several times after lights out and before I go to bed, and haven't even had a glimpse of the possible culprit :confused:

All my "spare" tanks are being used to get rid of bubble algae from my 67g and my 37g. Don't know when that emerald crab I have is going to stop eating the coraline algae a bit of bubble algae. The 37g had rock from when we moved into our condo. Despite every effort to eradicate the stuff, it kept coming back tenfold. Finally, out of utter frustration, I boiled all the rock which was ALL covered with that menace, so that rock is cycling and deader than a doornail.

So, am I having a good time with any of my new tanks????!!!!!???? When added together, I think we've got the Bermuda triangle PLUS Area 51 going on at our place with regard to tanks and various problems :eek:

Sam's idea might work, but my technical assistant, Chris, is out of town until late Sunday night. Don't know if we have the camcorder or if my daughter has it. It would be cool to be able to hook it up to our vcr with the hard drive, but don't know if that's possible.


AARRGGHHHHHH !!!!!!!

[Beverly]

Update....

While flashlighting the 120g last night, I found a small crab in a hole in the rock with a small hitchhiker snail in its grasp turning it over and over :evil: Snail diameter was less than a 1/4". Did not see the whole crab, but I imagine its back would have been about 3/4" in diameter. Tried to stab the crab with some tweezers, but the b****** climbed out of the hole and took off :evil:

This crab was waaaaay on the other side of the tank from where the graveyard was. Don't think it is large enough to tackle an astrea or margarita, but got thinking I may be dealing with a larger snail-killing crab. So I set up a crab trap near where I found the small crab with a not yet dead, but not very mobile astrea that's been in the tank for the last two days :2gunfire: While setting the trap, I had to move some smaller pieces of rock to support the trap and found an astrea shell picked clean.

No crab in the trap this morning :confused: Will move the trap to a location closer to where the graveyard was tonight.

Also found an astrea snail on its side at the back of the tank near the crab. It looked like it was trying to right itself, so I reached in and set it upright. It crawled away like normal :biggrin:

I believe I may be looking at two different things here. One may be that the snails are falling down and are easy prey for the predator, possibly a crab. The other may be that there is a big crab in the tank killing astreas and margaritas. I know for sure there is a small crab taking down little hitchhikers snails, though :evil: Perhaps they are the same crab?

Further investigation is certainly warranted.

[Quinn]

Hooray, 100th post in this thread.

A real mystery Bev. Definitely intriguing. I know how absurdly fast crabs can be, you might remember the time I tried to catch my Garfield crab and ended up with one of his legs. Tough little bastards.

Overall, how many snails did you find dead in the graveyard, and how many snails do you still have?

[Beverly]

Quinn,

Don't know how many snails I had to begin with, so I don't know exactly how many are left. But there are lots left, though, and too hard to count, you know :mrgreen:

As for the dead ones, I stopped counting :frown: None died last night, if I don't count the hitchhiker that I didn't know was there. Don't know how many hitchhikers have gone missing because these guys are so small and I think they only come out at night.

I checked out my 37g and 67g earlier today. 37g has only margaritas and none have died. 67g has margaritas and ceriths. Ceriths were left over from when we had tanks with sandbeds. Two of them died shortly after changing tanks, but none have died since. No margaritas have died in the 67g, either.

Yup, it's a mystery all right. Gonna keep investigating. Lucky I found that crab eating that poor little snail last night. Gives me another direction to follow up on.

[Beverly]

I was told to pour carbonated water over the hole where it lived & it would probably leave the rock.

Getting desparate and am considering using the carbonated water method on ALL the rock in the 120g :eek: Have seen several crabs over the past few nights, one of which I would like to transfer to another tank to eat algae. Have yet to find the source of the clicking as it moves to different locations in the tank.

Anyway, I have a few questions about using carbonated water before I attempt this massive undertaking:

- If I soak individual rocks in a pail of carbonated water and remove the animals that come out and place them right away in SW, will these animals survive?

- After a 2-4 minute saok, how much of the live stuff on my rock will still be alive, such as macroalgae, coraline algae, bacteria? Will I be killing the rock by soaking it in carbonated water?

- Some of my rock has mushrooms and star polyps on it. Will the carbonated water kill them?

- What else should I know about the effects that carbonated water will have on my rock and animals?

Thanks in advance for any comments, suggestions, similar experiences :smile:

[Aquattro]

Bev, I would only do this with a rock you knew something was in. Not just hit them all until you find something. soda water is not good for anything on the rock. Besides the osmotic difference, you have a huge pH difference as well.

[Bob I]

What Brad said :eek: , but in addition you would more than likely end up with a whole bunch of DEAD rock.

[Aquattro]

...but in addition you would more than likely end up with a whole bunch of DEAD rock.

Yup, that's what I was leading to....

[Beverly]

Bev, I would only do this with a rock you knew something was in. Not just hit them all until you find something. soda water is not good for anything on the rock. Besides the osmotic difference, you have a huge pH difference as well.

Brad and boB,

The problem is that I have no idea which rocks harbour the bad guy(s). Would using RO/DI or very dilute SW water, say with a salinity of .300 instead of the regular 1.026, instead of soda water be less harmful to the rock overall, but still flush out the crabs and the thing doing all the clicking?

I don't necessarily want to kill the crabs, because I know that at least two of them are beautiful and harmless filter feeders and another is an algae eater. But I would like to find the other crabs and clicking thing, and do as little harm to the rock as possible.

Any other ideas than those I have suggested?

[Samw]

Try taking 1-3 rocks out at a time. Remove the rock(s) and put them in a bucket of tank water. Then listen for the clicks in the tank over the night. If no more clicks then you've got the rock(s) you want. If you still have clicks, remove another group of rocks.

Though you may find the animal that is clicking, it may still not be the thing killing your snails. I'd still use a video recorder if you have one.

[Cap'n]

How about setting up a QT tank and removing those rocks you think harbour the bad guy? Keep baiting both tanks and see what happens. I also recommend using something more tasty than already dead snails for bait. I think you should go back to trying to trap the sucker!

[Bob I]

Beverley, I have sitting on my shelf doing nothing, a Ultralife X-terminator Mantis Shrimp trap. I bought it some time ago from MOPS. I would be more than happy to send it to you. :biggrin:

[Beverly]

Thanks for the suggestions :biggrin:

Sam, yes, two dead snails over the past two days. One an astrea, one a margarita. Both picked clean. The STRANGE thing about these snails' deaths is that they were both found high up in the rock over the floor of the tank of the graveyard :eek: Both snail bottoms were pointing outward, sort wedged in the ragged countours of the rock only a couple of inches away from each other. This is why I have no freaking idea where the killer is :eek:

The idea of putting a camera on the tank sounds good in theory, but in practice, where would I aim the camera in a 120g?

Taking a few rocks out at a time may be worthy of consideration. But I'm imagining taking the rock out, securing the rocks and corals that are left so they don't fall down, testing the removed rock then putting them back in, taking more out, securing them all again so they don't fall down, and on and on and on .... And who knows.... If I take out the first three rocks and there is nothing in them, when I put them back in the bad guy(s) move into the rock I've just removed :confused:

I'm wondering how successful I would be if I tore down the tank and poked and prodded each hole in each rock if that might be simpler over the long haul than taking a few rocks out at a time.

For the trap, what would you suggest as bait?

Thanks, boB, for the offer of the trap. Might take you up on it :smile: Will let you know :smile:

[Bob I]

My trap is about six inches long by 1.5 inches. Made from smoked plastic. I was just playing with it, and it works well. It says for bait you use Krill, or freeze dried food. :mrgreen:

[Cap'n]

Taking a few rocks out at a time may be worthy of consideration. But I'm imagining taking the rock out, securing the rocks and corals that are left so they don't fall down, testing the removed rock then putting them back in, taking more out, securing them all again so they don't fall down, and on and on and on .... And who knows.... If I take out the first three rocks and there is nothing in them, when I put them back in the bad guy(s) move into the rock I've just removed :confused:

:smile:

After hearing it spelled out I retract this suggestion. I'd try the trap for a while then do the teardown and poking thing.

Are you sure there's nothing else that could be contributing to snail deaths other than a predator?

We're rooting for you!

[Quinn]

Are you sure there's nothing else that could be contributing to snail deaths other than a predator?

I agree, this needs to be considered carefully.

Playing the devil's advocate - most good live rock contains a variety of fauna, including predators. Most of us keep a fair number of snails. Mass snail death is not commonly reported.

[Beverly]

Are you sure there's nothing else that could be contributing to snail deaths other than a predator?

I agree, this needs to be considered carefully.

Playing the devil's advocate - most good live rock contains a variety of fauna, including predators. Most of us keep a fair number of snails. Mass snail death is not commonly reported.

CptCleverer and Quinn,

Absolutely, something other than a predator could be killing them. I just can't imagine what that would be. There were no snail deaths for a few days, then the two I described above, and there were just shells left with those two.

Haven't done anything in this tank that I'm not doing in the others, though I have not done thorough testing for awhile. Maybe pH, calcium, nitrate or other levels could be out of whack and that's what's doing them in. Maybe they are sick with some snail sickness, but how would I know?

Was flashlighting the tank a few nights ago and there was a swarm of 1/4" swimming things. They followed the light and were kind of cool. Then I noticed this worm on the glass. Sort of looked like a very small bristleworm, but with very long legs. When I shone the flashlight on the worm, the swimming things that got close to the worm looked like they got stung and fell to the ground. Don't know if they died or not, but the next night, when flashlighting, only a few of the swimming guys were left. Could be the swimmers were going through the swimming part of their life cycle the night before and were finished the next night, or could be that the worm killed them. Don't know about this.

Now I imagine if there is one of those worms with long stinging legs on the glass, there has to be more. What if a snail inadvertently brushed up against one, got stung, then was open to predation by something in the tank? Who knows??!??

Will do a thorough water testing on Monday and report back.

[Beverly]

Didn't have time to do a full testing of the 120g as promised because I was in hospital for the last week :sad: Chris was looking after the tanks while I was gone and I noticed he hadn't been topping up the tanks very well. At least he was feeding the fish and topping up a bit :smile: Found only one dead snail upon my return today, but that one may have been there for awhile.

Anyway, was making up new water for the water change this weekend and noticed I'd been reading my refractometer incorrectly :redface: :eek: Tested the 120g and SG was only 1.020 :eek: When I think back to when I got the refractometer, I'd say the snail deaths may have started a month or two after getting it.

Have spent the afternoon removing half buckets of water from the tank, adding salt, stirring thoroughly, then putting that water back into the tank. So far, am up to 1.023.

So, I'm thinking low SG must have been the cause of the snail deaths. The clicking sound is probably a harmless alpheid shrimp or something similar, and cr*p, do I EVER FEEL STUPID :confused:

[muck]

Any more deaths since you corrected the Sp.Gr.?
or has that seemed to fix things.

[Beverly]

Any more deaths since you corrected the Sp.Gr.?
or has that seemed to fix things.

Yes, about as many as before :confused:

I've also torn down the snail death tank (120g) since the last post and put it back together, eyeing all the holes. Found one little crab that looked like it was possibly a coralline algae eater. It has a new home in another reefer's tank. No more clicking sounds from the tank, nor in any other tanks :biggrin: Did see the head of a pinhead-sized brown worm in one rock. At the time, wasn't thinking very clearly and didn't consider this worm a threat considering its size, but am now wondering if this itty bitty brown worm isn't the beginning of the HUGE worm described earlier on this thread :eek:

Had removed some rock as well and replaced it with rock I had in the 37g that had been (gasp!!!!) boiled to remove a case of bubble algae that just got worse every time I manually cleaned it. The boiled rock was cycled and fed to sustain a bioload in a spare 20g for several weeks before using in the snail death tank :evil: The 37g is now up and running with rock from the 120g as of this past weekend :biggrin: No dead snails in it :smile: Yet :eek:

[Dabbler]

We had a zebra hermit that loved Escargot. He now lives in the sump all by himself. :mrgreen: