An observation about sand and fine sand

[albert_dao]

So in the past year, I've told several dozen people who were having issues with algae and cyano to get rid of their sand. Their problems went away.

That is all.

[Tn23]

just tell everyone...... what Albert means is GO BARE BOTTOM!!!

[lastlight]

If it weren't for my wrasse I would (and had!).

[Masonjames]

I heard the leading ingredient in vaPOOrize is sand and/or fine sand. It makes the poo just magically disappear.

But shhhh. This powerful piece of knowledge is only aware to those in the aquaria trade.

[Pike]

Never. Bare bottom tanks look ugly and unnatural. I like to feel like im looking at the bottom of the ocean when admiring my tank. I'l deal with the algae so I dont get lazy and keep up good maintenance

[kien]

So in the past year, I've told several dozen people who were having issues with algae and cyano to get rid of their sand. Their problems went away.

That is all.

That's an interesting observation.

I am currently observing that my tank, with sand, currently does not have algae or cyan issues. However, this is just a preliminary observation so I will report back when my findings are more conclusive. :big grin:

Never. Bare bottom tanks look ugly and unnatural. I like to feel like im looking at the bottom of the ocean when admiring my tank. I'l deal with the algae so I dont get lazy and keep up good maintenance

Also, +1. Sand vs No Sand is in part, psychological. Some people see reef tanks as merely a box with a collection of saltwater organisms in it supported by powerbeads, plumbing, etc. However, some see their tanks as an as close an approximation of a reef biosystem as they can make it.

[Carrera75]

So in the past year, I've told several dozen people who were having issues with algae and cyano to get rid of their sand. Their problems went away.

That is all.

I totally dislike the bare bottom look. I have always used fine sand in my set ups and I have never had algae problems. Oh, and my set ups have always been skimmerless and sumpless feeding frozen food couple times a day. Water changes were done every couple of months or longer. Finally, Metal halide and T5 bulbs were changed every few years and when they got replaced I didn't really notice any difference in my corals...I guess am the exception ........different things work for different people.

Here is a picture of my previous set up that ran pretty successfully for many years.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/2-20.jpg


http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/3_zps36c48178.jpg


http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_12038359575704.jpeg

[canadianbudz604]

I definatly do like the look with sand, but my new tank is bare bottom. Definatly easier to maintain. Kinda hoping my zoas cover the bottom glass. The bare bottom look is growing on me

[sumpfinfishe]

+1
A live sand bed is much more natural looking, provides a home for many critters that clean and scavenge there. In 15 years of reefing I have never had an issue with having a sand bed or algae for that matter. Over feeding and under maintenance are the biggest reasons why algae arise.

[Carrera75]

+1
A live sand bed is much more natural looking, provides a home for many critters that clean and scavenge there. In 15 years off reefing I have never had an issue with having a sand bed or algae for that matter. Over feeding and under maintenance are the biggest reasons why algae arise.


I totally agree with you. Some people have way too many fish, over feed and don't do the required maintenance. I highly doubt that sand alone is the problem......

[Aquattro]

I have done both, and BB is easier. But, I didn't enjoy the look and have gone back to sand. No algae issues.

[sumpfinfishe]

Not to mention the contrast of a white sand bed and and eye popping colorful corals like in the images posted above/below wouldn't be possible:mrgreen: Beautiful!
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/2-20.jpg

[Pike]

Not to mention the contrast of a white sand bed and and eye popping colorful corals like in the images posted above/below wouldn't be possible:mrgreen: Beautiful!
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/yvr_75/2-20.jpg
Yes very nice . And wow thats alot of rock flower anemone !!!

[Masonjames]

Well I guess we can disregard alberts obsevations.

Silly Albert. Didn't you know you can have a sandbed and be algae free.

[Aquattro]

Well I guess we can disregard alberts obsevations.

Silly Albert. Didn't you know you can have a sandbed and be algae free.

I'd say he's pretty accurate :) If you have a problem, removing the sand would help a lot!

[Carrera75]

Yes very nice . And wow thats alot of rock flower anemone !!!

That's an old picture. You should see all the True Ultra Rock Flower Anemones that I have now :biggrin: Those that are circulating around right now are pretty average looking.

[albert_dao]

lol...

Posting under the influence is the best.

In any case, congrats on being the 1%.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

We went bare bottom for several months when we set up a 210g and HATED it. Eventually both my wife and I agreed that having a sand bed was the only way we would enjoy that setup. It was the only time we experimented with BB. Have been doing sandbeds in my tanks for the last 12 years and loving it.

Sorry Albert. Its not as simple, IME, as just No sand = No algae. Algae issues are generally from several different causes, as others like Daniel have mentioned: a lack of maintenance, overfeeding, too many fish, old light bulbs, no tangs, etc.

Yes, if one has an algae issue, removing sandbed is probably a good idea based on your experiences and observations.

But as Daniel and others have also proven, sand beds do not automatically = algae issues in one's tank.

Besides, I love my leopard wrasse collection far too much to deprive them of their sand.

[Masonjames]

I'd say he's pretty accurate :) If you have a problem, removing the sand would help a lot!

Interesting. Seems then like alberts observations could prove profitable for some.

Curious then as to why this potentially valuable information is being derailed.

[Pike]

That's an old picture. You should see all the True Ultra Rock Flower Anemones that I have now :biggrin: Those that are circulating around right now are pretty average looking.
Not sure if you are providing a link but its not working and yes I would like to see them please, thankyou

[Aquattro]

Interesting. Seems then like alberts observations could prove profitable for some.

Curious then as to why this potentially valuable information is being derailed.

Well, as it's been stated, sand does not equal algae. But the other contributors could be bound in the sand, and removing it could help. Or replace it with new, clean sand. But I've almost always had sand and never had algae issues, even feeding very heavy. It's all tank/owner dependent, and for some, it could help an existing problem, or prevent a problem that the hobbyist wouldn't otherwise manage properly.
As with everything, it's A way, not THE way.

[Pike]

lol...

Posting under the influence is the best.
.

I agree with you on that , bare bottom not so much:biggrin:

[albert_dao]

Damn, y'all really love your sand.

Wellp, when you guys have unbeatable cyano and hair algae issues (which is the proposition of the post, not "I'm an advanced reefer and I never get these problems"), you let me know if you find an easier way to get them corrected than removing the substrate for a while :D

Now do that over a wide sampling of habits and incomes.

Oh, you found an easier solution? I'm all ears.

Interesting. Seems then like alberts observations could prove profitable for some.

Curious then as to why this potentially valuable information is being derailed.

Not sure what you're implying here.

[albert_dao]

I agree with you on that , bare bottom not so much:biggrin:

I think the spirit of the discussion has become lost under the polarization of BB vs sand.

[Aquattro]

I think the spirit of the discussion has become lost

Which spirit started this post? :)

[Pike]

Which spirit started this post? :)
^ Buahahahahah !!! we have a winner.

And albert I think the discussion is going just fine

[kien]

Which spirit started this post? :)

I'm guessing the variety that should be going into the tank.

[Aquattro]

I'm guessing the variety that should be going into the tank.

Dosing gone horribly wrong? Or right?? hehe

[Pike]

When I started to have cyano algae problems I checked my RODI unit and realized all filters and membrane needed replacement. I then started to use Prodibio as well and it solved the problem

[Carrera75]

I think the spirit of the discussion has become lost under the polarization of BB vs sand.

Were you really expecting everyone to agree with you? Your way is not the only way to do things buddy. What works for you might not work for me and vice versa.

[albert_dao]

When I started to have cyano algae problems I checked my RODI unit and realized all filters and membrane needed replacement. I then started to use Prodibio as well and it solved the problem

Okay, now let's pretend your RODI stuff is in good shape and you don't want to spend/afford the $$$ on dosing stuff.

Or how about you're doing everything right but your tank is 3 years old+ and you still have these issues.

Or what if you have a really large bioload because that's what you signed up for when you started this hobby.

Or what if your wife really, really likes to feed the fish and it's conditional to the tank taking up 6' x 2' + worth of the living space in your house.

Or what if this and that and whatever with rice?

Anyway, my point is that I've helped a ton of people overcome these sorts of issues and it all begins with removing old/dirty sand and running for at least a few months BB. You can add after you've overcome your problems if it just sets your soul into eternal torment. Or you can just cover the bottom with corals. Or you can just live with it because a clean tank > a dirty tank.

[albert_dao]

Were you really expecting everyone to agree with you? Your way is not the only way to do things buddy. What works for you might not work for me and vice versa.

If I had said "you need to go BB, that's the only way to set up a tank", then no, I'd expect this sort of vigorous defense. However, I didn't state that :)

Here's an analogy: If your room is dirty, clean it.

[Carrera75]

If I had said "you need to go BB, that's the only way to set up a tank", then no, I'd expect this sort of vigorous defense. However, I didn't state that :)

Here's an analogy: If your room is dirty, clean it.


Last time I was at your store (Oceanic Corals) I noticed that there was a lot of hair algae in your tanks and if I remember correctly they are bare bottom :smile:

[Pike]

Okay, now let's pretend your RODI stuff is in good shape and you don't want to spend/afford the $$$ on dosing stuff.

Or how about you're doing everything right but your tank is 3 years old+ and you still have these issues.

Or what if you have a really large bioload because that's what you signed up for when you started this hobby.

Or what if your wife really, really likes to feed the fish and it's conditional to the tank taking up 6' x 2' + worth of the living space in your house.

Or what if this and that and whatever with rice?

Anyway, my point is that I've helped a ton of people overcome these sorts of issues and it all begins with removing old/dirty sand and running for at least a few months BB. You can add after you've overcome your problems if it just sets your soul into eternal torment. Or you can just cover the bottom with corals. Or you can just live with it because a clean tank > a dirty tank.
I understand what you mean. But the prodibio is not that expensive. Replacing the sand would be much more expensive and more work.And you signed up for an expensive hobby as much as you signed up for a large bioload.. And as for your wife well ..you need to give her something else to play with my man:cool:

[albert_dao]

I understand what you mean. But the prodibio is not that expensive. Replacing the sand would be much more expensive and more work.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here on both counts. Prodibio IS expensive because it's recurring, open-ended cost that might not necessarily fix the problem. Not to say that removing an old sandbed fixes a problem, but it IS free, or damn near free, to do.

Work-wise, like anything, it's easy if you know what you're doing. I helped another board member pull out 1/3rd of the sandbed from his 60 gallon cube the other day. Took max 7 minutes. No mess in the tank, no cloudy water, like nothing happened. 1" diameter hose, some buckets and a helping hand is all you need.

And you signed up for an expensive hobby as much as you signed up for a large bioload..

I don't follow the line of reasoning here given that signing up for an expensive hobby and large bioload do not need to be mutually bound to signing up for doing more work than you have to.

And as for your wife well ..you need to give her something else to play with my man:cool:

"Honey! I just got home for the Love Shoppe with something for you. It's a deluxe model, should keep you happy for years. Now run along while I go spend $$$ on my fish tank." Not sure if that's how the world works. Can we get a chime from either some contemptuous wives or men who have to deal with contemptuous wives? lol... ♥

[Pike]

lol , super delux !!oh man im ****ing my pants laughing dude !!

Ok so I guess you mean to wash the old sand and put it back as opposed to buying new ? , of course i didn t think about that. And my tank is just 65 g, Prodibio would be more expensive for you.

[Masonjames]

Interesting. Seems then like alberts observations could prove profitable for some.

Curious then as to why this potentially valuable information is being derailed.



I think the spirit of the discussion has become lost under the polarization of BB vs sand.


I may be wrong in the spirit or the intent of the post. But I would assume it was not in the direction of justifying a algae free sandbed system.

We all have seen many beautiful algae free systems which have a sand bed. But not everyone has such a tank. Many if not most have nutrient problems, and resulting algae problems.

What benifit is it to those who have such a problem to simply say, I don't have such a problem. He's a picture to prove so. Who does this actually bennifit when the information quickly becomes redirected to ooohhh. Pretty tank.

I think any hobbiest with any real reefing time under there belt realize that no one way is the right way and success comes more from the hobbiest and the choices and practices therein.

Not everyone can replicate others success in the same fashion. So for many out there with algae problems, removing the sandbed could make life allot simplier for them. But instead of promoting information which may be valuable to that individual, we instead insist on sharing how "I" got it all figured out, overshadowing the actual practical and potentially beneficial information originaly presented.

No, removing a sand bed will not solve every problem. But for those who lack the experiance, the knowledge, the tools and equipment, the luck, doing so can prove to be benifical. Especially for those experiencing nutrient problems which result in the unwanted. The dependency and need for some equipment, regimiments, dosings, investments in, etc etc, can be lessened. Stability of the system and biological fluxes are lessened. All things which make running of the system simplier and easier for the user while they try and correct the issue or get a better undersrnading on the runnings of the system. A sandbed is the largest living organism in the system. And maintaining that system is not easy for everyone for a multitude of reasons. And just because you can and do, doesn't mean the next will have the same abilities to do so with the same success.

Frankly nutrient problems, algea problems, should in today's indistry be a rarity and not a norm. There simple to control and manage. But those who don't know how to mange them can't get the information they need because we love to overshadow inforamtion with our self promoting.

[albert_dao]

I may be wrong in the spirit or the intent of the post. But I would assume it was not in the direction of justifying a algae free sandbed system.

We all have seen many beautiful algae free systems which have a sand bed. But not everyone has such a tank. Many if not most have nutrient problems, and resulting algae problems.

What benifit is it to those who have such a problem to simply say, I don't have such a problem. He's a picture to prove so. Who does this actually bennifit when the information quickly becomes redirected to ooohhh. Pretty tank.

I think any hobbiest with any real reefing time under there belt realize that no one way is the right way and success comes more from the hobbiest and the choices and practices therein.

Not everyone can replicate others success in the same fashion. So for many out there with algae problems, removing the sandbed could make life allot simplier for them. But instead of promoting information which may be valuable to that individual, we instead insist on sharing how "I" got it all figured out, overshadowing the actual practical and potentially beneficial information originaly presented.

No, removing a sand bed will not solve every problem. But for those who lack the experiance, the knowledge, the tools and equipment, the luck, doing so can prove to be benifical. Especially for those experiencing nutrient problems which result in the unwanted. The dependency and need for some equipment, regimiments, dosings, investments in, etc etc, can be lessened. Stability of the system and biological fluxes are lessened. All things which make running of the system simplier and easier for the user while they try and correct the issue or get a better undersrnading on the runnings of the system. A sandbed is the largest living organism in the system. And maintaining that system is not easy for everyone for a multitude of reasons. And just because you can and do, doesn't mean the next will have the same abilities to do so with the same success.

Frankly nutrient problems, algea problems, should in today's indistry be a rarity and not a norm. There simple to control and manage. But those who don't know how to mange them can't get the information they need because we love to overshadow inforamtion with our self promoting.

Oh, okay. Excuse me while I get back to my self promoting and not making any money by not selling sand. Incidentally, you'll find my ebook on amazon soon. Only $14.95. My personal success course should be ready for the spotlight shortly after that. Referral programs will be in place at launch. Live the life you want to live, get a barebottom reef.

[albert_dao]

lol , super delux !!oh man im ****ing my pants laughing dude !!

Ok so I guess you mean to wash the old sand and put it back as opposed to buying new ? , of course i didn t think about that. And my tank is just 65 g, Prodibio would be more expensive for you.

Naw, washing old sand is like putting shot tires back on your car. Buying new sand is cheap. $45 for 40 lbs. That should give you enough shallow coverage to replace on a 65g at least three times, once each year ---> $15/year. Pretty affordable, assuming you decided to go back to it.

[Masonjames]

Oh, okay. Excuse me while I get back to my self promoting and not making any money by not selling sand. Incidentally, you'll find my ebook on amazon soon. Only $14.95. My personal success course should be ready for the spotlight shortly after that. Referral programs will be in place at launch. Live the life you want to live, get a barebottom reef.

I think your confused on the intent of my post. The information and observation you originally presented was the information I am supporting.

Non the less... I agree. Reefing is made easy when the hardest part to maintain is removed. Running a coral tank is so simple when we're not trying to run a sewage treatment plant along side.

[Masonjames]

Oh, okay. Excuse me while I get back to my self promoting and not making any money by not selling sand. Incidentally, you'll find my ebook on amazon soon. Only $14.95. My personal success course should be ready for the spotlight shortly after that. Referral programs will be in place at launch. Live the life you want to live, get a barebottom reef.

But you should sell sand. Then, all the equipment to support that system, then all the chemicals and medias, dosing regimiments, etc etc. That's just good business. The rest of the industry plants it's backbone on maintaing a sewage treatment plant. Why shouldn't you. Lol

[Samw]

Old sand can be one cause of algae. To be fair, Albert never said, you can can't have a clean tank with sand. I took his post to be tongue in cheek anyways.

As I read the thread, I'm reminded of the Propositional Fallacy that I learned many years ago. I think it is was called Denying the Antecedent. :)

I did actually replace my 14 year old sand with new sand after years of battling hair algae and dinoflagellate with regular water changes, gravel vacuum, cleanup crew, algaecides, protein skimming, Chemiclean, etc. Nothing helped. Now, problem gone.

[albert_dao]

Last time I was at your store (Oceanic Corals) I noticed that there was a lot of hair algae in your tanks and if I remember correctly they are bare bottom :smile:

Cept it was just one tank. And I had just removed the sand. Strangely enough, two weeks later, algae is magically gone! Like magic! Oddly effective magic! Practical magic!

Edit: I get the impression that you don't like me very much and that you're belaboring the point for little good reason given that nothing I've said is factually incorrect. You can go over this with a fine tooth comb if you want broski :D

[albert_dao]

But you should sell sand. Then, all the equipment to support that system, then all the chemicals and medias, dosing regimiments, etc etc. That's just good business. The rest of the industry plants it's backbone on maintaing a sewage treatment plant. Why shouldn't you. Lol

Cuz that's what bitches do. I'm not a bitch.

[lastlight]

I took his post to be tongue in cheek anyways.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=106793&highlight=bronies

The guy posted his love for bronies. Whatevs!

[albert_dao]

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=106793&highlight=bronies

The guy posted his love for bronies. Whatevs!

That was Tyler (spit.fire) living out his dream via my unattended account!!!!

[Madreefer]

Never. Bare bottom tanks look ugly and unnatural. I like to feel like im looking at the bottom of the ocean when admiring my tank. I'l deal with the algae so I dont get lazy and keep up good maintenance

I totally agree. Even if covered with coraline or zoas, it just doesn't look natural.

[Myka]

If it weren't for my wrasse I would (and had!).

My Flasher Wrasse sleeps at the base of the rocks. He builds himself a cocoon.

[hfp75]

I like a sand bed and don't generally have a problem with them either....

I have a belief system though....

A sand bed is it's own ecosystem within the equarium. As such it needs it's own attention. I keep a sand star sand sifting goby and both Astra and nassarius snails plentiful if my system to turn the sand.... The key is turning the sand... And that combo does it... I don't aim power heads at it or anything....

I am currently running biopellets and Rowa so my nutrients are low... Which helps with keeping algae at bay, but before the biopellets with just Rowa I would from time to time get some algae that would start on the sand and with a water change I would just vacume it all up and out.... Wash the sand a dump it back in....

If you have a system with excess nutrients they will go somewhere..... Hopefully it's out with a water change.... Or they will find their own way to be 'productive' as in algae.

With all my tanks in the beginning with the blooms I run a few scoops of red slime remover with the skimmer off for a few days then skim it out... I find it really helps in the beginning.

It comes down to TWO things:
1- EXCESS nutrients - run a PO4 remover and biopellets.... Or more water changes
2- livestock NOT turning over your sand - go BUY the items I listed above.

Pick which your failing at and fix it....

I would wonder how much macros help.... I run a few types and chaeto is the best grower by far and home to some life. Maybe the macros just take the easy nutrients on the first pass and the leftovers get used by the pellets and Rowa.

I tried the 'no name' high capacity gfo and it did nothing!!! I measured the PO4 in the tank and the output from the reactor an hour later and it was the same - I now only use ROWA cause it works for me and I can measure the difference...

[lastlight]

My Flasher Wrasse sleeps at the base of the rocks. He builds himself a cocoon.

no such luck with leopards or melanurus tho. i tried making it work and couldn't bear to watch for more than a day.

[hfp75]

no such luck with leopards or melanurus tho. i tried making it work and couldn't bear to watch for more than a day.


My leopard and melanurus are doing fine the melanurus is definitely in charge.... The first day was brutal.... The poor leopard was definitely the looser of a few strikes..... The leopard will stay out of the way of the melanurus now... My tank is a 90g with a lot of rock...

[lastlight]

My leopard and melanurus are doing fine the melanurus is definitely in charge.... The first day was brutal.... The poor leopard was definitely the looser of a few strikes..... The leopard will stay out of the way of the melanurus now... My tank is a 90g with a lot of rock...

I'm referring to the fact that these fish became incredibly stressed trying to bury themselves under sand that wasn't there. Besides the fact that I much prefer the look of sand, I needed it for my fish.

[Myka]

no such luck with leopards or melanurus tho. i tried making it work and couldn't bear to watch for more than a day.

I had a Grey Head Wrasse (very similar to Melanurus) in my 90 with bare bottom. He slept at the base of the rocks too - he was in there for 2 years or so. I don't know what's so hard to watch?

[lastlight]

I had a Grey Head Wrasse (very similar to Melanurus) in my 90 with bare bottom. He slept at the base of the rocks too - he was in there for 2 years or so. I don't know what's so hard to watch?

On two separate occasions I tried to go bb. Both my leopard wrasses and melanarus were damaging themselves trying to bury themselves in nothing. They're meant to sleep in the sand but I did try going without it. I didnt like watching them so stressed.

[sumpfinfishe]

I also wanted to mention Albert that I know there are benefits to going/starting BB, and there are many beautiful BB tanks in this hobby, so it simply boils down to personal preference. I do believe however that most algae problems can be avoided, whether it be closer monitoring, consistent water changes, getting overwhelmed with fancy chemicals or relying on too many technical products to list a few.
Taking two steps backward to figure out why something is wrong is better than taking one step forward in the wrong direction.

[Reef Pilot]

Sorry if it has been said already, but easiest way to keep your sand clean is with an orange spot sleeper goby. They are tireless workers, (and interesting to watch, too) and their constant sand sifting ensures that any detritus is taken away by the water column and out through your overflows.

I lost mine a few months ago (they will find the smallest hole in your tank top) and tried going without for now (I wanted to try some bottom LPS corals). So I got a tiger tail cuc instead. However, he spends most of his time in the rocks and has failed to keep the algae from starting up on my sand. I am planning to get another goby, as I have had about enough of this algae.

[Aquattro]

If you have an algae problem, and if it won't go away, and you may have had high PO4 levels and you have sand, it's then plausible that said sand is binding the suspected PO4 within it's porous structure AND therefore, removing and/or replacing said sand "could" alleviate or eliminate the original problem of algae in a tank.
That about it, Albert?

Gobies won't clean it, sifters won't sift it, chemicals may leach it back out, but a quick way to fix is to remove. As an option. If you wanted to fix it quickly. It may or may not appeal to your aesthetic sensibilities, but can and often does fix a particular problem.

Mental note, install breathalyser on Submit button :)

[Samw]

If you have an algae problem, and if it won't go away, and you may have had high PO4 levels and you have sand, it's then plausible that said sand is binding the suspected PO4 within it's porous structure AND therefore, removing and/or replacing said sand "could" alleviate or eliminate the original problem of algae in a tank.
That about it, Albert?

Gobies won't clean it, sifters won't sift it, chemicals may leach it back out, but a quick way to fix is to remove. As an option. If you wanted to fix it quickly. It may or may not appeal to your aesthetic sensibilities, but can and often does fix a particular problem.

Mental note, install breathalyser on Submit button :)

Yup, sometimes replacing the sand can be quicker than spending endless time trying to figure out what the problem is and still not find it when the simplest cause is right there in the sand. If it works great, if not, move on. No need to start an argument whether or not the sand is causing the problem in someone else's tank.

Obviously, replacing the sand wouldn't be the first option until everything else has been looked at.

[Reef Pilot]

Well, for me it is pretty simple:
Goby = no algae on sand
No Goby = algae on sand

And my P04 is consistently zero or near zero (Hanna checker). But yes, am sure sand traps P04. That's what the Goby is for. He stirs it up and it is taken away by the water column. Like I said, that is the easiest solution (instead of changing or frequently vacuuming your sand).

[Aquattro]

I like sand...

[Samw]

I like sand...

So do I. That's why I replaced mine with new sand. My old sand was turning black and had Hydrogen Sulfide. Is that bad? :)

The good news is that my hair algae is gone completely and I've had to feed my turbo snails nori ever since. Previously, there was enough algae for all of the herbivoires to eat and the algae would grow back to provide more food for them.

[albert_dao]

This is gonna get wordy:

I also wanted to mention Albert that I know there are benefits to going/starting BB, and there are many beautiful BB tanks in this hobby, so it simply boils down to personal preference. I do believe however that most algae problems can be avoided, whether it be closer monitoring, consistent water changes, getting overwhelmed with fancy chemicals or relying on too many technical products to list a few.

Sometimes you get old tank syndrome. Sometimes you started off the wrong foot and didn't have the best set up. The list goes on. I agree with you, these problems can be avoided, but it assumes you're going into your tank as an experienced hobbyist.

Taking two steps backward to figure out why something is wrong is better than taking one step forward in the wrong direction.

Old tank syndrome is easy to figure out - Buildup of organics bound to substrates. You can't exactly just ditch your rock structures, so sands up for the chopping block.

Sorry if it has been said already, but easiest way to keep your sand clean is with an orange spot sleeper goby. They are tireless workers, (and interesting to watch, too) and their constant sand sifting ensures that any detritus is taken away by the water column and out through your overflows.

I don't agree with this. They will assist with sand they can get at. And that's it. They're industrious, not magic.

If you have an algae problem, and if it won't go away, and you may have had high PO4 levels and you have sand, it's then plausible that said sand is binding the suspected PO4 within it's porous structure AND therefore, removing and/or replacing said sand "could" alleviate or eliminate the original problem of algae in a tank.
That about it, Albert?

Hey, someone addressed the topic without flaming me! *Awkward hug*

Gobies won't clean it, sifters won't sift it, chemicals may leach it back out, but a quick way to fix is to remove. As an option. If you wanted to fix it quickly. It may or may not appeal to your aesthetic sensibilities, but can and often does fix a particular problem.

Bingo.

Mental note, install breathalyser on Submit button :)

Do you find that your propensity for fun diminishes as you get older? -____-

Well, for me it is pretty simple:
Goby = no algae on sand
No Goby = algae on sand

And my P04 is consistently zero or near zero (Hanna checker). But yes, am sure sand traps P04. That's what the Goby is for. He stirs it up and it is taken away by the water column. Like I said, that is the easiest solution (instead of changing or frequently vacuuming your sand).

Walter, I don't mean to point out the obvious, but your formula doesn't work for everyone. I sell tons of those gobies. I still see people with nutrient buildup issues because of their rock work, crappy skimmers, not enough flow, etc, etc, etc. Sure, they could improve these aspects, but that doesn't change the fact that they went for however long with crap advice and crap setups which led to the problem in the first place. How do you solve for x when x is years of sh1tty tank? Often, removing the sand and running it BB for a few water change cycles is the easiest and most effective option.

I feel there's a lot of resistance here because people think pulling out sand is hard or messy. It's not. Here's what you do:

Materials
• 3/4" or larger ID hose
• enough buckets to cover your regular water change
• a helping hand (you will need someone to keep the hose from flooding and to break up clogs in the hose

Method
1. Set all your buckets up in front of the tank.
2. Start siphon and shove hose into the sand. Pick up as much as you can.
3. When all your buckets are full, stop. You don't need to get all of the sand in one go. Spread it over several water changes if you have to.

That's it. Using a hose, you won't cloud up and crash your tank. Having a helping hand will keep you from putting your foot through your sump.

[lastlight]

It's certainly easy to remove. I did my entire 93 thru a hose as part of my water change. Tank was still crystal clear when I was done. I baste my sand regularly with 50 micron socks in overnight as a way to live with the crap trap that is a sandbed.

[Reef Pilot]

Walter, I don't mean to point out the obvious, but your formula doesn't work for everyone. I sell tons of those gobies. I still see people with nutrient buildup issues because of their rock work, crappy skimmers, not enough flow, etc, etc, etc. Sure, they could improve these aspects, but that doesn't change the fact that they went for however long with crap advice and crap setups which led to the problem in the first place. How do you solve for x when x is years of sh1tty tank? Often, removing the sand and running it BB for a few water change cycles is the easiest and most effective option.

Well, sorry to disagree with you, Albert. But I have had gobies, and not had gobies. When I had a goby (Orange Spot Sleeper), never (and I mean never, ever) had algae on my sand, and it always looked pristine white. When I didn't have a goby, in a short time, the sand would lose its pristine color (more brown at first) and eventually algae (the aggressive green stuff would start in). I could keep it clean with vacuuming, but that was extra work that just wasn't required with a goby.

Of course, a Goby is not majic, and does not get rid of your P04 and N03. You need GFO and biopellets for that (or some other equivalent regime). But even with zero P04 and zero N03, and no goby, my sand would still look like crap, unless I vacuumed it.

Nothing against BB tanks as such, but for those who prefer sand, there are ways to keep it clean and pristine looking, without a lot of work, ie get the goby.

And conversely to what you said, Albert, BB does not magically solve your other water issues either. You still need a good skimmer, good flow, and a regime to get rid of your phosphates and nitrates.

[albert_dao]

Well, sorry to disagree with you, Albert. But I have had gobies, and not had gobies. When I had a goby (Orange Spot Sleeper), never (and I mean never, ever) had algae on my sand, and it always looked pristine white. When I didn't have a goby, in a short time, the sand would lose its pristine color (more brown at first) and eventually algae (the aggressive green stuff would start in). I could keep it clean with vacuuming, but that was extra work that just wasn't required with a goby.

Of course, a Goby is not majic, and does not get rid of your P04 and N03. You need GFO and biopellets for that (or some other equivalent regime). But even with zero P04 and zero N03, and no goby, my sand would still look like crap, unless I vacuumed it.

Nothing against BB tanks as such, but for those who prefer sand, there are ways to keep it clean and pristine looking, without a lot of work, ie get the goby.

And conversely to what you said, Albert, BB does not magically solve your other water issues either. You still need a good skimmer, good flow, and a regime to get rid of your phosphates and nitrates.

I'm... not advocating BB. Thomas said that. The argument was to remove sh1tty sand from your tank when you have problems.

[Reef Pilot]

I'm... not advocating BB. Thomas said that. The argument was to remove sh1tty sand from your tank when you have problems.
Well, that can help, for sure, and same goes for old live rock. But you'll still have problems unless you get your water right, starting with proper test kits.

And I know there is more than one way to get it right, so not arguing that removing sand or going BB is wrong. But it is not the only way, that's for sure. And easy and quick is not always the best solution in the long run.

[Aquattro]

Do you find that your propensity for fun diminishes as you get older? -____-




Comes in waves. I'm on an upswing right now. Just enjoying the ride. So, you guys still talking about this, huh?
Thought the concept was fairly simple and straight forward. I'm on your side if this gets to the bike rack after school!

[Masonjames]

I feel there's a lot of resistance here because people think pulling out sand is hard or messy. It's not.

No this isn't the issue. If people HONESTLY thought their sandbed was a potential issue there probably wouldn't be much resistance to removing it.

It's ignorance and or arrogance.

Poster 1:
Removing a sandbed can be beneficial to people who are experiance problems possibly associated with such.

Poster 2: blah blah blah. I have a sandbed and I don't have any issues. This is a
Stupid thread. Clearly this guy hates sand and the way I do things.

Poster 1: but it can help people.

Poster 3: no way man. Bb is ugly. Sand is where it's at.

Poster 4: woe, slow down. We need to make sure people understand that this is not the only way. And by doing so I will show people my way.

Poster 1: but I didn't say it was. I just said it could help people.

Poster 5: no it's not the sandbed. It's because the user of such sandbed sucks at this hobby and is not as awesome as I am. Look, look. It got it figured out.

Poster 6: I might be having issues with my sandbed. Should I remove my sand?

Poster 7: well I guess maybe there is a possibility it could help. But imo you should go to the store, buy more equipment. Because your obviously lacking. Get yourself these fish, and those inverts. Well set you up with some proper dosing, get ya hooked up with all the medias and pellets, and get a nice little macro growing to out compete with all that algae on the sand. Far better plan in my opinion.

Poster 6: oh thanks. You really helped me allot. Sucks this hobby is so expensive and challenging but I guess that's just how it is...

[kien]

I fully admit, I'm ignorant and arrogant.

[Aquattro]

Poster 8: So, you guys still talking about this, huh?

[Aquattro]

People have sand trouble because they run LED. Period. (that'll trick 'em)

[reefwars]

Geesh I thought this was now common practise but everyone knows that if you acid bath your sand once a month , use dry rock and add a skimmer cup of sludge you won't have these issues.

Hth

[Aquattro]

Geesh I thought this was now common practise but everyone knows that if you acid bath your sand once a month , use dry rock and add a skimmer cup of sludge you won't have these issues.

Hth

Forgetting something??? That's right, MB7. You're welcome.

[jorjef]

So what's the deal with sand.? Should I or shouldn't I

[Aquattro]

So what's the deal with sand.? Should I or shouldn't I

Use Instant Ocean for best results.

[reefwars]

So what's the deal with sand.? Should I or shouldn't I

Until we know for sure only half remove it :)

[reefwars]

Forgetting something??? That's right, MB7. You're welcome.

I knew it , see threads like this are useful tools and a wealth of knowledge :)

[reefwars]

I would have replied sooner but I was trolling on Rc lol

[jorjef]

Note to self. Leave for the coast in the morning to get some instant ocean sand....I guess. But only take half of what I need. Now there is some think'in ahead since I will have to remove half right away anyways.

[lockrookie]

Maybe they are having sand issues cause they peed in the tank to start the cycle..

[Aquattro]

I would have replied sooner but I was trolling on Rc lol

Catch any dolphins?

[reefwars]

Catch any dolphins?

I was hoping to but seems like someone beat me to it lol so here I am now talking sand :)

[navbc]

Look nice
Setting up new 180 gal tank nothing in it accept base rock hoping for some suggestion
Of what type of coral and fish to begin with want to eventually have different color and assortment of soft and hard coral

[Aquattro]

Look nice
Setting up new 180 gal tank nothing in it accept base rock hoping for some suggestion
Of what type of coral and fish to begin with want to eventually have different color and assortment of soft and hard coral

Is this a trick to derail an already derailed thread?

Ok, I'll bite. Start with the types of corals you want to keep, and fish that don't eat them.

[Masonjames]

Is this a trick to derail an already derailed thread?

Ok, I'll bite. Start with the types of corals you want to keep, and fish that don't eat them.

That's not the only way brad. Start with the fishes you know won't eat the coral you want to keep.

[gregzz4]

I'm on your side if this gets to the bike rack after school!
Ya, I'm there for ya too Albert

Honestly, ya give your opinion about one topic and the next thing ya know you're defending all your practices AND your place of work

[Aquattro]

That's not the only way brad. Start with the fishes you know won't eat the coral you want to keep.

Sorry, gotta disagree. If you know you're going to have both, I always suggest starting with the coral. Let it settle in, encrust, attach, not worry about overloaded nutrients, etc. Just don't add sand. Or if you do, add a goby. And acid wash it. If you're using Io salt. Otherwise, don't use sand at all. Only MB7.

This is a complicated hobby...

[Masonjames]

Sorry, gotta disagree. If you know you're going to have both, I always suggest starting with the coral. Let it settle in, encrust, attach, not worry about overloaded nutrients, etc. Just don't add sand. Or if you do, add a goby. And acid wash it. If you're using Io salt. Otherwise, don't use sand at all. Only MB7.

This is a complicated hobby...

Ahh. Well that actually makes allot of sense when I take the time to read it. Here I have a differing opion but I can see the value in what your saying. That may be good practice for many. Thanks for sharing : )

[Aquattro]

Just to be clear, I meant acid wash the sand. Not the goby.

[gregzz4]

Sorry, gotta disagree. If you know you're going to have both, I always suggest starting with the coral. Let it settle in, encrust, attach, not worry about overloaded nutrients, etc. Just don't add sand. Or if you do, add a goby. And acid wash it. If you're using Io salt. Otherwise, don't use sand at all. Only MB7.

This is a complicated hobby...
So if you're going to add sand, you need to add an acid washed goby - if you're using IO salt.
But otherwise don't use acid at all, or is it let the goby settle in first, and then acid wash the goby before adding the sand ?
Or am I supposed to just use the MB7 in the sand, but only if I add the IO salt ?
I'm totally confused

[Aquattro]

I dunno anymore...

[gregzz4]

I dunno anymore...
weak

[Aquattro]

weak

all I got..

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

I see Albert's been sharing his "spirits" :wink::drinking::drinking::drinking:

[albert_dao]

And just like that, canreef.

[Tn23]

Wow 10 pages in 2 days! Impressive.

Just to prove Albert wrong... Should we setup sand in my frag tank at the upcoming frag swap? :redface:

[albert_dao]

Wow 10 pages in 2 days! Impressive.

Just to prove Albert wrong... Should we setup sand in my frag tank at the upcoming frag swap? :redface:

Out of context.

Why don't you prove me wrong by adding sand from a tank that's infested with algae, detritus and all. Feel free to add a sleeper goby :D

[Tn23]

Out of context.

Why don't you prove me wrong by adding sand from a tank that's infested with algae, detritus and all. Feel free to add a sleeper goby :D

is that usually how everyone starts off their tanks? perhaps if they bought sand from you :p

Pretty sure most of use buy sand in bags from the store that are fresh and clean....... but I'll take you up on that sleeper goby that's for sure :D

[Samw]

is that usually how everyone starts off their tanks? perhaps if they bought sand from you :p

Pretty sure most of use buy sand in bags from the store that are fresh and clean....... but I'll take you up on that sleeper goby that's for sure :D

I'm thinking the tanks with the chronic algae problems that aren't going away, they don't have new sand.

[Samw]

Albert: I told several people with aches to take aspirin. They did and their pain went away.

Person 2: Wrong Albert. I don't have any aches and I didn't take any aspirin. Therefore aspirin doesn't work.

Person 3: Wrong Albert. I don't have any aches and I didn't take any aspirin. Therefore they don't need to take aspirin to not get aches.

Person 4: Wrong Albert. Aspirins don't relieve pain but they should take more vitamins. This is the reason I don't have aches.

[reefwars]

Just to be clear, I meant acid wash the sand. Not the goby.

I should really learn to check back on these threads......my goby is now phosphate free though :)

[Aquattro]

scaleless goby?

[sumpfinfishe]

The secret is mexican sand for me, I always get 20 lbs from a private beach near playa del carmen, less suntan oils and more crude oil :mrgreen:

[reefwars]

Well shoot now im confused .....do I remove the sand before adding the goby or add the goby before removing the sand?

[Aquattro]

Goby removes the sand. duh

[WarDog]

Well shoot now im confused .....do I remove the sand before adding the goby or add the goby before removing the sand?

Yes, but only when in Mexico, and after or before acid bath.

[reefwars]

Goby removes the sand. duh

Gotcha....I think ....I better run my plan by you guys :)

Step 1 : remove all algae from system

Step 2 : add sand

Step 3 : add goby

Step 4: remove goby and sand with siphon hose

Step 5: add algae?

Then Repeat as necessary?

[jorjef]

Good lord, now I have to go buy a Goby.... Which ones are best to remove algae sand.....

[Aquattro]

You're not getting this, are you? You're missing acid, MB7, Mexico, and probably the left side of a Twix bar. You clearly aren't qualified to keep dolphins...

[Aquattro]

Good lord, now I have to go buy a Goby.... Which ones are best to remove algae sand.....

sigh....algae sand goby, obviously..

[jorjef]

They are pricey though..and if the sand is too big they get digestive problems and double their excrement production which fuels the algae sand even more!!!
I swear if this hobby doesn't get easier any time soon I'm throwing out the sand and going with bio balls for a substrate.

[reefwars]

Well seems this is a lot of work , so I'm thinking....and correct me if I'm wrong but .....I think I got it.

New plan:


I can remove all my sand to get rid of algae.

I add the sand from dispplay to the sump and put a algae sand goby in display while I dose mb7 to the sump at the same time eating a chocolate bar.

I then remove sand , add dolphin and do a water change with a " good batch" of instant ocean.

I add LEDs ..

Remove LEDs....

Troll on Rc.....

Then I remove goby , add sand ! hook up the seneye and change my name to saltwaterseahorses...



It's a good thing I'm off today I was just gonna test and possibly change out my gfo......good thing I didn't :)

Boy would I have looked dumbbbb...

[Aquattro]

Eureka!! You got it!!

We can put this to rest now.

Should prolly make this a sticky...

[Reef Pilot]

I see Albert's been sharing his "spirits" :wink::drinking::drinking::drinking:
I think it is something a little stronger, and in the air... Maybe the pineapple xpress blew it in. Maui, wowie?...

[reefwars]

Thnks guys , looks like I'm off to find a mexican MB sand sifting instant algae goby:)

Latin name: Algaesiftus instagobus

[sumpfinfishe]

bwhahahaha

but don't forget to add a fresh squeeze of lime before adding the mexican sand, that is after removing the goby but before the acid