Dry Pikani bleach than acid bath [Archive] - Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board

Easto

01-03-2015, 08:52 PM

I have some dry pukani from Eli.

My plan is to soak it in bleach overnight

After soaking it I'll rinse the rock

From there I will toss it in water+ muriatic acid

Followed by a final rinse and dry.

My tank isn't ready for the rock yet so I don't know if I will cycle it in a Rubbermaid container or just wait until the tank is ready to cycle it in there.

Is anyone interested in pics of the bleach/acid part?

Any specific pics you want to see?

I plan on picking 1 or 2 rocks and getting some before/during/after pics.

I also have some tonga shelf pieces in there as well

WarDog

01-03-2015, 09:00 PM

I did the exact same process with rock from Eli. It turned out beautiful and white. Suggest you add a pump to bleach bath to really mix it all around.

nerdz

01-03-2015, 10:35 PM

Sounds cool, post a few pics...

Just don't pour the HCl, (muriatic acid), and the bleach out at the same time!!! You'll liberate chlorine gas.

FishyFishy!

01-03-2015, 11:07 PM

Ive done it on my most recent build. Lots of pics there if you wish to see them. Always remeber to add the acid to water.....NEVER add water to acid. And never mix bleach and acid.

I did water/bleach bath for 24 hours. Then a pressure wash rinse. Followed by a freshwater soak. Then did the acid bath for a few hours, with a bunch of baking soda at the end to neutralize the acid. This was followed again by a pressure wash and long RO water soak. Then I left them out in the sun to bake/dry out for a couple weeks.

I had no phosphate issues at all and best of all...no pests!!

Highly recommend doing this. Be safe and best of luck. Let us know how it turns out.

Easto

01-03-2015, 11:11 PM

I have a lot of stuff on the rocks, not idea what any of it is.

I'll grab 1 or 2 rocks that have the most discolouration and take a few shots. See how they look at each stage.

Easto

01-04-2015, 12:13 AM

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/keaston82/A2CFFD28-F6A5-4A56-B482-80F3C0F64E98_zpslwxrsrm8.jpg

Ok, this is huge. Not too sure how to resize on my phone.

But this is probably the dirtiest rock of the bunch. Some dark brown, some red stuff, etc.

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/keaston82/DDFBF5E4-1BAC-40F8-ADA0-1D79F9EC36BB_zpsuuhf35pd.jpg

Easto

01-04-2015, 03:41 AM

After a few hours the rock has lightened up quite a bit

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/keaston82/A4A09394-4815-4875-8E31-0584F9F761BE_zpsobjr7t31.jpg

Easto

01-04-2015, 05:40 PM

I rinsed the rocks then did the acid.

I'm not sure how long I was supposed to leave the rocks in there. I probably added the baking soda too early.

A lot of crap came off the rocks, but there is still a good amount of dark brown and a few red spots still

WarDog

01-04-2015, 05:58 PM

I left them in the acid for about 2-3 hrs, until the bubbles had all stopped and popped. Then added the baking soda and let that sit for another hour just to make sure.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10428447_10152310305116403_6453424433960197791_n.j pg?oh=678c3bb69508367d8f03d6d4f70aabb8&oe=55340329&__gda__=1430021316_62db4fb41600c35c02b2cd650b5d42c 3

Once it was all done there were still a few brown areas on the pukani.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8593/15347769254_a74fcc2ee3_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/poek6h)

FishyFishy!

01-04-2015, 06:06 PM

When I did it, I poured acid in, waited until the reaction was over, then poured more in until the reaction stopped. Then I let it sit for a couple hours. Then did baking soda.

vanreefer

01-04-2015, 11:23 PM

Easto

01-05-2015, 12:54 AM

I only left my rock in for 5 minutes or so. I don't know what the magic number is, but I know I can always put it in again if I needed to.

It was bubbling like crazy and I wasn't sure what was all going on under there so I dumped the baking soda in between the 5 - 10 minute mark.

As far as losing mass, I didn't notice any. I am sure you lose some, but I don't think it's significant.

Today was the only above freezing day I think we may have for a while. I was in a bit of a rush. I think I might just toss it in a bin and let it cycle in the dark for a while in the basement.

WarDog

01-05-2015, 01:21 AM

To be honest I didn't even think about the loss of mass. If I had to answer I'd have to say not much.

Bblinks

01-05-2015, 07:37 AM

Where did you get the acid?

davej

01-05-2015, 07:40 AM

Where did you get the acid?

You can get it at Home Depot. In the tile section.

WarDog

01-05-2015, 08:09 AM

Where did you get the acid?

Or Canadian Tire.

Bblinks

01-05-2015, 08:46 AM

Cool thanks guys:biggrin:

nbreau

01-05-2015, 10:33 AM

Bblinks

01-05-2015, 05:35 PM

Not looking to hijack the thread but could you please explain the purpose behind this process ? Is it necessary or does it simply speed up the cycle time ? I'm setting up a 90 gallon and ordering about 60lbs from Eli and wondering if I can simply let it cycle in the new take over a few months with seed rock or should I be doing this process prior ?

thanks,
Nick.

Acid dipping is necessary due to the left over organics in the rock which will cause a phosphate spike even long after the tank has been cycled. lots of people run into algae problem with there newly set up tank and ultimately give up after months of battling green hair algae (gha) with no success not knowing that it would've been prevented simply by curing your rock prior to placing them in to your tank. There are a few ways of curing your rock and one of them is to acid dip them then run them in a bin with saltwater, heater and pump for a month or two before placing them in your tank or some will skip the acid dipping part and just do the latter but thats all personal preference. There are a hundred ways to skin the cat but if you are getting dry rock especially pukani, you will need to do this.

Easto

01-05-2015, 05:51 PM

If I took the rock out of the acid too soon is it essentially a waste of time?

Between the bleach and then acid I can see that a lot of crap came off the rocks, however there is still discoloration on the rocks.

Second, the rocks still have a bleach smell to them. They have been out of water for 2 days, but are wet still. I have a feeling they absorbed some of the bleach.

any idea how to make sure I get all of it out? I assume it will give me some issue if I try and cycle the rock with the bleach smell.

Easto

01-05-2015, 05:53 PM

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/keaston82/6E51FA51-5424-4829-84B0-8167B1722D4C_zpsgchoim5c.jpg

WarDog

01-05-2015, 06:18 PM

Easto, if that is your pukani after your acid bath then you did not do it long enough my friend. All that dark crud should bbe gone.

Easto

01-05-2015, 06:22 PM

I figured that much. I was nervous that it was possible to leave it in too long so I took it out within 10 minutes. My goal was to get rid of all the crud off the rocks so I can cycle them in my tank.

It's way too cold out now to be screwing around with water outside.

Best thing to do now? Cure it in a container in the basement?

I guess other people can learn from this :D

WarDog

01-05-2015, 07:19 PM

nbreau

01-06-2015, 02:42 AM

Acid dipping is necessary due to the left over organics in the rock which will cause a phosphate spike even long after the tank has been cycled. lots of people run into algae problem with there newly set up tank and ultimately give up after months of battling green hair algae (gha) with no success not knowing that it would've been prevented simply by curing your rock prior to placing them in to your tank. There are a few ways of curing your rock and one of them is to acid dip them then run them in a bin with saltwater, heater and pump for a month or two before placing them in your tank or some will skip the acid dipping part and just do the latter but thats all personal preference. There are a hundred ways to skin the cat but if you are getting dry rock especially pukani, you will need to do this.

Thanks for clarifying ! So is the acid bath used to speed up the cycling process and for a new tank setup can I simply drop the rock in the empty tank with some live rock for seeding a wait a month or two ? Sounds like both steps are required ?

mohammadali

01-06-2015, 10:18 AM

What's the name of the acid you use ?

reefwars

01-06-2015, 01:33 PM

You might want to wait for temperatures to rise (February?) and re-acid bath. That's going to take months to cycle IMO.

Bblinks is dead on: "Acid dipping is necessary due to the left over organics in the rock which will cause a phosphate spike even long after the tank has been cycled."

Arghh.....months to cycle? What connection does po4 have to the nitrogen cycle?

No offense but I don't agree with this at all..... seems to me people are getting scared into doing this process a lot more lately with poor information so much to the poont where now were saying it has to be done or the tank is doomed to live a never ending cycle lol if this is the case then why is my tank and others running with 100% pukani and no acid bath and no curing....and as of my Sunday test just past still no no3 or po4?

I keep asking this yet those who like to argue it don't answer lol

Stripping the rock of its po4 layer will help with your po4 battle no doubt about it , no3 does not bind it is 100% soluable. So there's only so much po4 in the rock , whether you export it now or later doesn't mean you won't have po4 issues though lol a lot will come down to how your setup and how you export po4 On any given day.

A person can cure the Dickinson out of the rock and still have huge po4 issues , the same way a guy using all liverock can ;)

Simply because.....po4 does not end on the stone , it's imported and exported daily and always will as this is a closed system .

I do get a good chuckle watching all this though so continue on :)

reefwars

01-06-2015, 01:36 PM

Basically if I don't change out my gfo reactor I will see a cycle?

Seems odd....

Skimmin

01-06-2015, 01:51 PM

Yah agreed reefwars. Easto if you have any questions about the rock why dont you talk to Eli. He knows that stuff really well. Eli's tank is pretty friggin sweet and he never did the bleach or acid

FishyFishy!

01-06-2015, 02:22 PM

What's the name of the acid you use ?

Muriatic acid. Available in concentration from most pool/spa stores.

Bblinks

01-06-2015, 05:48 PM

Basically if I don't change out my gfo reactor I will see a cycle?

Seems odd....

The nitrogen cycle is the process by which nitrogen is converted between its various chemical forms. This transformation can be carried out through both biological and physical processes. Important processes in the nitrogen cycle include ammonification, nitrification, and denitrification. This means fish can swim in water without dying. This has nothing to do with curing your rocks.

Now, why do you want to "cure" your rock...

Rock, especially Calcium Carbonate (live rock) that has been in water with inorganic phosphate will adsorb phosphate, the depth and level of contamination will depend on a varietty of factors for example, length of time of exposure, properties of the carbonate structure and concentration of exposure.

Pukani rock is essentially dried Calcium Carbonate that once had organic forms living on it but now has perished by the harvest and drying process leaving phosphate molecule associated with a carbon-based molecule as in plants or animals. When you acid dip them, you are removing all those potential dead organic matters to eliminate the "new tank syndrome" where green hair algae can establish and feed off decaying organic matter. Through perseverance, one might be able to overcome this stage by manually removing gha, heavy water changes with combination of GFO and eventually at some point an equilibrium will establish and phosphate leaving the rock will equal phosphate entering, but this is not for the fainted heart, most will shut down.

If we remove the phosphate from the water column then it will continue to leave the rock, the length of time this takes is dependent on the factors described above, however, at some point the rock will low enough in phosphates, and if you provide other essential parameters including enough good light, watermovement, correct temperaure, correct salinity and a balanced supply of calcium and carbonate you will get the calcerous growth most reefers aim for (bascically phosphate inhibits biological and abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate).

Back to your question, no, it will not see a cycle if you don't change out your gfo.

Bblinks

01-06-2015, 05:59 PM

Thanks for clarifying ! So is the acid bath used to speed up the cycling process and for a new tank setup can I simply drop the rock in the empty tank with some live rock for seeding a wait a month or two ? Sounds like both steps are required ?

Hello nbreau,

Acid bath has nothing to do with the cycle, your rock will cycle either way but the purpose of acid dipping is to get rid of all the dead organic matters left behind in the rock which can alleviate a lot of headaches for the future of your tank.

If your agenda is to speed up the cycle, there are ample amount of products you can use like microbak 7, zeobac, or Dr.Tims one and only.

reefwars

01-06-2015, 06:01 PM

Back to your question, no, it will not see a cycle if you don't change out your gfo.

that's what i thought thanks:)

reefwars

01-06-2015, 06:04 PM

Hello nbreau,

Acid bath has nothing to do with the cycle, your rock will cycle either way but the purpose of acid dipping is to get rid of all the dead organic matters left behind in the rock which can alleviate a lot of headaches for the future of your tank.

ah now this is wording it more like it , i think people are getting confused with the nitrogen cycle and curing process....these are not the same things:)

Bblinks

01-06-2015, 06:09 PM

Had to clarify it, I was getting confused myself. :redface:

WarDog

01-06-2015, 07:05 PM

The purpose of acid dipping is to get rid of all the dead organic matters left behind in the rock which can alleviate a lot of headaches for the future of your tank.

Reefwars, I screwed up and wrote 'cycle' when I meant 'remove phosphates'. Rich wrote what I was thinking, but couldn't type down. Sorry if I got you hot under the collar bro, we can still be friends right? :lol:

reefwars

01-06-2015, 07:26 PM

Reefwars, I screwed up and wrote 'cycle' when I meant 'remove phosphates'. Rich wrote what I was thinking, but couldn't type down. Sorry if I got you hot under the collar bro, we can still be friends right? :lol:

haha but of course :)

Coral Hoarder

01-06-2015, 11:34 PM

OK so if I decided to do an acid bath what's the ratio of acid to water?

When netealize the acid Is the rock safe after that or do I need to take further steps

Bblinks

01-07-2015, 12:17 AM

OK so if I decided to do an acid bath what's the ratio of acid to water?

When netealize the acid Is the rock safe after that or do I need to take further steps

30% acid and 70% water, sit for 2-4 hours until everything is clean, baking soda to neutralize the solution and dispose safely.

Pressure wash or hose down rocks than let it sit in ro water for a few days drain ro water put in salt water and start curing.

Coral Hoarder

01-07-2015, 12:34 AM

OK thanks!

Bblinks

01-07-2015, 12:54 AM

OK thanks!

No problem.

BTW always add acid to water and not the other way around.

Coral Hoarder

01-07-2015, 12:55 AM

Thanks and yea haha read that

mohammadali

01-07-2015, 01:27 AM

Muriatic acid. Available in concentration from most pool/spa stores.

in 15G water with LR in it how much Acid should i add ?
this Acid sold in 1G

Coral Hoarder

01-07-2015, 01:37 AM

15 gal ÷100×30 =4.5 galons

Masonjames

01-07-2015, 05:11 AM

Calcite will attract and bind phospahtes just as gfo does. It chemically binds it. If any level of po4 is present it will quickly bind to calcite and can do so until saturation. This goes for any calcium carbonate structure.

Most dry rock/live rock will more then likey come from three sources, either a fellow reefer, inland mining or lagoonal waters. All of which have ample levels of po4.

But it doesn't matter where it came from. If you have dry rock, you have bound po4. It's means of freeing up bound po4 has been removed. The only differnce between live rock and dry rock in terms of what happends with bound po4 is the bacterial proccess that take place that break the bond. Healty live rock is self cleaning if given the appropriate environment to do so. An enviromnet with po4 levels greater then that of which the bacteria can utilize, the calcite structure slowly fills up to the point of saruration. This is why live rock can come with just as much bound po4 as dry. And this is why dry WILL have bound po4.

It's there wether a person wants to believe it or not. Wether it is of concern to an individual or not, well that is up to the user. But for those who want to deal with what WILL be bound po4 prior to indroduction into a system then there are many great ways to achieve this.

For live rock and dry rock. Cooking is best.

Dry rock. Bleach, acid is the quickest and simplest. But keep in mind that the acid will remove a layer or rock which is bound with po4. A good thing. But by doing so you also now expose new calcite free of po4. As soon as this calcite comes back into contact with po4.... Well... Why it's the second best option.

I myself use the latter.

Many aslo have great success and little to no issue purging in tank. Don't want denny to feel left out. Lol.

But if your not going to follow any of that up with proper husbandry practices for keeping your calcium carbonate structures healthy. Then don't bother. Your destined for algae problems despite the rock then.

mohammadali

01-08-2015, 09:21 AM

I dont have any Algae problem but my phosphate is 2.0 i tested with API test kit but my corals lost color

Bblinks

01-08-2015, 09:58 PM

I dont have any Algae problem but my phosphate is 2.0 i tested with API test kit but my corals lost color

Common for high phosphate, it will not only prohibit color, it will also stun growth when your phosphate is in that range.

Easto

01-09-2015, 12:12 PM

I hope in the next week I can do the acid bath again. This time I'll go a few hours.

Just a quick question. When you do the acid bath are you guys finding you end up with a bunch of rubble that you never had before?

I'd like for my rocks to stay as much in tact as I can get

WarDog

01-09-2015, 06:37 PM

The only rubble I got was from me banging my rocks together. You needn't worry.

nbreau

01-09-2015, 07:11 PM

Bblinks

01-09-2015, 07:49 PM

So what is the alternative to acid bathing ? Simply allowing the rock to sit in a rubbermaid with a heater and powerhead ? If so how long does this process take vs acid bathing ?

I've got about 65lbs of magnificent pukani and shelf rock on it's way from Eli and want to make sure I understand both options ...

Bleach or vinegar might also work. Curing rock all depends on how much organics are left on your batch of rocks. You can put it in a rubber maid with heater and power head without doing anything but you will do to test your phosphate level until it reaches your prescribed optimum level. It could take up to a few month before you reach 0.02-0.05 ppm. Again, it all depends on the amount of water changes and phosphate removing agents you are using.

Easto

01-12-2015, 01:06 AM

I did another 3 hour acid bath for my rocks.

It did a much better job, but still left a bunch of dark brown crap on the rocks. The water it came out of was nasty, so although I still have stuff on my rocks I know a lot of it is now gonzo!

Bblinks

01-12-2015, 02:23 AM

Nice dude!

nbreau

01-12-2015, 02:25 PM

What's the suggested bath time ? Does it depend on the amount of rock ?

Bblinks

01-12-2015, 11:57 PM

What's the suggested bath time ? Does it depend on the amount of rock ?

From what I have gathered, 2-3 hours is pretty decent for an acid bath.

asylumdown

01-13-2015, 06:42 PM

Remember that these rocks aren't necessarily pure calcium carbonate - there's probably plenty of mineral contaminates in the rock that were either laid down by the corals themselves, or precipitated out through various chemical processes after the corals that built the rock died trapped within them.

A little discolouration at the end of the whole process wouldn't surprise me in the least, and you might need to dissolve the entire rock to truly get it all out.