Dry Pukani Rock - Curing - aquascaping

[Easto]

I have some dry Pukani currently. This is my plan:

I am going to clean the rock either with bleach + water or do the Muriatic acid + water clean to get rid of any dead material.

From there I'll put the rock in a rubbermaid container with salt water to cure the rock.

Once the rock is done curing unless I am totally out in left field here, it will have all the beneficial bacteria I am looking for and ready for the tank.

I had Eli at Fijireefrock out together an aquascpe for me based on the dimensions of my tank. A few of the pieces of rock will need some epoxy to hold them in place.

How long can the rock be left out of the water without ruining/killing the bacteria?

I plan on aquascaping the rock in the tank then adding water once I have the rock how I want it.

Is this a good idea or should I fill the tank and add the rock with water already in?

[Skimmin]

Eli knows his rock. I just purchased a couple hundred pounds from him and followed his instructions. I stuck it in a bin of saltwater with lots of circulation at 82f. Its been in there for just over two weeks. Ammonia spike is dropping. Nitrite and nitrates are coming up now. I didnt clean or acid bath it. I took his instructions and used them the way he told me to. If u have any questions just ask him. His tank looks amazing and he used the same procedure.

[Easto]

Hopefully I can get the rock put together as nice as it looked in the video!

[htfn]

Eli knows his rock. I just purchased a couple hundred pounds from him and followed his instructions. I stuck it in a bin of saltwater with lots of circulation at 82f. Its been in there for just over two weeks. Ammonia spike is dropping. Nitrite and nitrates are coming up now. I didnt clean or acid bath it. I took his instructions and used them the way he told me to. If u have any questions just ask him. His tank looks amazing and he used the same procedure.

I did same. Eli's direction takes much longer but works great.

[reefwars]

i wanted to wait weeks and go through all the fun troubles that people seem to have with their new rock.

alas i didnt go with the pack but in the opposite direction and listented to no ones advice( although all the curing videos and posts sure made it sound like a fun process)

all dry rock , no live rock ( at all) , no curing, no baths, no, acid, no dark , no gfo and the liust goes on of things i didnt do lol

so why did it work for me ?


i added fish right away.....

i have zero nitrates and zero phosphates...never did

no amonia....or at least ive never seen any

no algae...



according to the online info....this shouldn't have worked but it did ;)

but then the online info has its flaws :)

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

As someone asked me to reply and give an explanation.
Here is my quick take on curing processes for the dry rock.

My original receipe is based on bacteria survival and keeping that bacteria to stay and do its job for as little time possible.
Yes there are other recipes out there that work be it using chemicals,HC-GFO,Carbon and other item that yes at the end cost money.
I tried keeping my recipe with as little of added cost as possible,for the short time or the long haul of any setup.
I always believed in Keep It Simple Stupid or don't fix it if it aint broke.:biggrin:

Yes like Denny said and I know of few people did the quick drop in the tank load it with live stock and turn lights on then cross your fingers...well I don't totally agree as I really go in details as to why the rock need the dark time and get it to coat with beneficial bacteria and use all the proteins to break down properly ,...

A quick note on how Bleach and Acid works on the rock for curing.

We all know the rock is cleaned as much as possible and pressure washed prior to shipping. But proteins is lodged into the rock and needs to be removed with little cost.

Bleach and proteins are 2 different chemical reaction as when added bleach in a water volume and add the rock to it what you will get is that the bleach will react with the amino acids that form the proteins and render it useless,..
Now all that release is in the water line or some still in the rock.

Acid well we all know that acid body of water dissolve Calcium (the very make of our rock) to nothing
When added to the water with the rock that has gotten a simple wash after the Bleach wash,well it will dislodge and remover all cracked:biggrin: and useless proteins into the water line and foam out.A quick wash and your rock is ready for curing.

Curing is always needed to add bacteria and have the rock ready for any saltwater tank,...
Does the Bleach and Acid speed up the process,...I don't know as I haven't tested that theory yet,there is no right answer to that speed of curing as the recipe doesn't fall under on one or 2 items being changed but few points put together; foe exp. water temperature,water movement, oxygen availability, available proteins in the rock and added proteins to that rock,...

Bottom line is if you are planning on using Acid or Bleach I suggest using them as part of the process not one and leave the other out as mentioned above they work perfect as one breaks the proteins and the other help dislodging is out.

Hope that answers the question or at least its my lake on this.
Cheers

[Easto]

Water Changes:
Should I be doing water changes while the rock cures, or leave the rock and water alone and let it do its thing?

Cured Rock how long will bacteria live outside the water?
What's the best way to aquascape? I was planning on keeping my tank empty and putting the cured rock in there. Figuring out where I want the rocks, then using epoxy to keep them in place. I don't know how long this will take. Once I have the rocks placed I was going to add salt water. In a situation like this how long will the rocks last in a dry tank? Or should I fill the tank with water and aquascape under water just to be safe?

Water movement while curing?
I don't have any powerheads yet and was planning on getting a Gyre Generator in my tank. If I am curing in a rubbermaid container, what do you suggest I use for water movement (what's the cheapest method)?

Bleach:
Bleach will kill the proteins left on and in the rock?

Acid:
Acid will dislodge any leftover proteins that are killed when the rock is bleached. Rinsing won't wash them all away and the acid bubbling will basically force it all off the rock and out of the small pores?I know these are alot of questions I just want to make sure I am understanding and have all my ducks in a row.

[reefwars]

Yes like Denny said and I know of few people did the quick drop in the tank load it with live stock and turn lights on then cross your fingers...


sure...but thats not what i did lol ;)



bacteria...organics


these are the two things about using dry rock....with a little help from mr science we know each of these can be manipulated , removed or added to ;)


so why did my tank show no phosphates ( still doesnt ) , no amonia and no nitrates ?


the same way live rock can or cant lol

nutrients can be imported ( hence why the rock has it anyways ) there fore it can be exported , simple carbon dosing can take care of that ( worked great for me ) but exporting nutrients isn't new technology its pretty darn documented on how well and what ways its removed.


the other is bacteria ...ill say this it would take chemicals to kill bacteria...simply drying the rock isnt enough to get rid of bacteria , may bring the population down but wont kill it completely as well..bacteria is not in short supply be it in a reef, in the air or anywhere for that matter :)

to this day i havent got 1 pound of liverock in my tank , now yes the corals i add has bacteria and the bases they are on but in weight what do we have maybe 2 lbs....surface area isnt great on my toch stem but none the less bacteria is there lol

so how much bacteria does it take to convert amonia?

we use to say a lb per gallon .....some say 2 lol

what if i told you i cant remember the last time i seen a person who had a tank crash due to not enough bacteria populatio ( not unless we go bacjk to the chemicals ) you would be hard pressed to stop the process if you tried lol.


so while i wanted to wait months , add all kinds of bleach and acids , go buy actual liverock etc.


when i did the math ( and its not just me , hit the chemistry forum on rc ) it didnt make any sense to me to go through any of this :)


def not for the inadvanced but def isnt the only way to do it either or the best lol

[Ulmo]

In my limited experience , all you need is salt water, circulation , warmth, time, and a small amount of lanthanum chloride to eliminate phosphate as necessary. Worked for my ~80 lbs.

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

[QUOTE=Easto;924927]Water Changes:
Should I be doing water changes while the rock cures, or leave the rock and water alone and let it do its thing?
I have tested both and I had faster curing period without water change.


Cured Rock how long will bacteria live outside the water?
From what I have seen and just giving a number I have used,room temperature should be able to hold the rock out of the tank for couple hours before you see much difference although temperature (and I mean big swing in a short period) play a big role on bacteria survival.

What's the best way to aquascape? I was planning on keeping my tank empty and putting the cured rock in there. Figuring out where I want the rocks, then using epoxy to keep them in place. I don't know how long this will take. Once I have the rocks placed I was going to add salt water. In a situation like this how long will the rocks last in a dry tank? Or should I fill the tank with water and aquascape under water just to be safe?
Really most aquascape I have seen or I should say the longest in a dry tank is 4 hours then FijiCrete the rock and add saltwater.

Water movement while curing?
I don't have any powerheads yet and was planning on getting a Gyre Generator in my tank. If I am curing in a rubbermaid container, what do you suggest I use for water movement (what's the cheapest method)?
I highly suggest a power head as this is the best way to do it.If you have an air pump with a hose running at the bottom of the container with few holes in it to push air out and to the surface as this agitate your water thus circulating it.

Bleach:
Bleach will kill the proteins left on and in the rock?
Yes, Bleach left in the container with water and rock will penetrate every crevice of the rock.

Acid:
Acid will dislodge any leftover proteins that are killed when the rock is bleached. Rinsing won't wash them all away and the acid bubbling will basically force it all off the rock and out of the small pores?I know these are alot of questions I just want to make sure I am understanding and have all my ducks in a row.
In this hobby its always best to ask as many questions as possible before acting to reduce the hole in your pocket:biggrin:
Acid will do a better job on dislodging all the micro particles, of course some will be left in there as that is why the curing process has to be followed./QUOTE]

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

sure...but thats not what i did lol ;)
I wasn't specifically pointing fingers at you,it just maybe seemed that way



bacteria...organics


these are the two things about using dry rock....with a little help from mr science we know each of these can be manipulated , removed or added to ;)

Yes of course so is everything else could be manipulated but I am simply giving advice on my product from my experience and others that used it.
Like I said above I will not go into specific details on how bacteria,lights,saltwater,temperature and chemicals come together

so why did my tank show no phosphates ( still doesnt ) , no amonia and no nitrates ?
I am not saying it will not work about what you have done as many done the same some with success and some not so much.For me as I sell and distribute the product will take it the safe way telling all my customers accordingly and we all know as the hobby progresses its always and I mean always best to take thing slow.
Doing testing on a product or how things work is another topic.



the same way live rock can or cant lol

nutrients can be imported ( hence why the rock has it anyways ) there fore it can be exported , simple carbon dosing can take care of that ( worked great for me ) but exporting nutrients isn't new technology its pretty darn documented on how well and what ways its removed.
Yes nutrient export is an old discussion and there is no right way of doing things but we always give advice on what we have gone through or seen others do with the open topic.
Carbon dosing is another discussion maybe another day.


the other is bacteria ...ill say this it would take chemicals to kill bacteria...simply drying the rock isnt enough to get rid of bacteria , may bring the population down but wont kill it completely as well..bacteria is not in short supply be it in a reef, in the air or anywhere for that matter :)
We are simply talking about aerobic and anaerobic bacteria specifically found in saltwater aquariums.Yes decent temperature swing will render some bacteria.Yes drying the rock will kill the bacteria but how much of it dies depending on how and how long you dry the rock,its like taking a fish out of the water,can you specifically tell me how long it will survive before death or maybe the first question would be what kind of fish are talking about as some survive minutes to an hour before death(same as bacteria)

to this day i havent got 1 pound of liverock in my tank , now yes the corals i add has bacteria and the bases they are on but in weight what do we have maybe 2 lbs....surface area isnt great on my toch stem but none the less bacteria is there lol

so how much bacteria does it take to convert amonia?

we use to say a lb per gallon .....some say 2 lol
That is a question with many answers and if your answer is right to you and works in your system doesn't mean it works in another system.
A simple example from my system.
I have 1300glns of water and about 1500lbs of rock that doesn't mean I could place 100 pcs of colonies in there with no issues,for me usually feed my rock for 2 weeks before a shipment then when a shipment arrives and place all these colonies in there I know for a fact that my rock is loaded with hungry bacteria....and have 0 affect on my fish or chemistry.

what if i told you i cant remember the last time i seen a person who had a tank crash due to not enough bacteria populatio ( not unless we go bacjk to the chemicals ) you would be hard pressed to stop the process if you tried lol.
True you would be hard to stop the process but none the less you will have an affect on that system.


so while i wanted to wait months , add all kinds of bleach and acids , go buy actual liverock etc.


when i did the math ( and its not just me , hit the chemistry forum on rc ) it didnt make any sense to me to go through any of this :)
No one is twisting arms to buy live or dry rock its simply a choice that people take.A choice of price,type and other things could be discussed another day.


def not for the inadvanced but def isnt the only way to do it either or the best lol
Like I said above especially in this hobby there are a ton of information and how things get done by each individual but there is nothing wrong with getting different views and making ones decision


WoW I had a long day at the office and man it feels good to talk reefing:lol:

[Easto]

Thanks guys!

[Craigdillman]

Awesome thread i just was explaining this too someone and you explained it way better in less words i may be copying and pasting this in the future lol

[Easto]

I am pretty happy about the way this thread turned out. Blew my expectations out of the water.

[asylumdown]

sure...but thats not what i did lol ;)
the other is bacteria ...ill say this it would take chemicals to kill bacteria...simply drying the rock isnt enough to get rid of bacteria , may bring the population down but wont kill it completely as well..bacteria is not in short supply be it in a reef, in the air or anywhere for that matter :)


I think we should be careful with statements like this. As Eli point out, not all bacteria are created equal. The kinds of bacteria I think you'e talking about, the nitrifiers that you need to process ammonia and nitrite, are not nearly as resilient as the heterotrophs that do the majority of the decomposing in a tank. Most heterotrophs can go in to a cyst stage when conditions or resources are not optimal, and as a result can be pretty resistant to things like drying, or storage for long periods in bottles of bacterial supplements, but the "true" nitrifiers, the nitrobacter and nitrosoma bacteria do not have that ability. They also reproduce VERY slowly, dividing once every 10-30 hours, vs once every 20 minutes for most of the carbon eating heterotrophs.

If something happens to disrupt a population of nitrifiers, be that a drying event or a sudden swing in temperature or chemistry (thought their tolerance for temp swings is likely greater than anything you'd pay to put in a tank), it can torpedo their numbers enough to cause a spike in ammonia.

Add to that there are different clades of chemo-autotrophs adapted to different concentrations of nitrogenous compounds. If ammonia gets high enough, you can start killing off large numbers of the kind that are adapted to the nearly undetectable levels of a reef. You'll never wipe them out completely, but these issues all contribute to the instability typically referred to as 'new tank syndrome'.

Anyway my point is that no, you'll never kill them all, but when we're talking about the kinds of bacteria that we care about to keep our fish alive, they are more delicate, and slower to rebound than "normal" bacteria. They get all their energy from the bonds between nitrogen and hydrogen or nitrogen and oxygen, and all their carbon from atmospheric CO2. Compared to bacteria that are metabolically "burning" complex carbohydrates with atmospheric oxygen, this is a costly way to meet your energy needs. Hence the lengthy division time, and why it takes so long to cycle a tank.

[reefwars]

Anyway my point is that no, you'll never kill them all, but when we're talking about the kinds of bacteria that we care about to keep our fish alive, they are more delicate, and slower to rebound than "normal" bacteria. They get all their energy from the bonds between nitrogen and hydrogen or nitrogen and oxygen, and all their carbon from atmospheric CO2. Compared to bacteria that are metabolically "burning" complex carbohydrates with atmospheric oxygen, this is a costly way to meet your energy needs. Hence the lengthy division time, and why it takes so long to cycle a tank.


Exactly , so it can be done....maybe not the fastest method for instant load , but the tanks ability for more load only becomes larger if the environment is healthy enough and it's needs are met , ammonia in large numbers would be harmful to a number of critters yes , certainly , but that doesn't mean you have to settle for amonia.

Fwiw I'm not concerned about amonia , this is something that can be tested , monitored and changed or removd at will......I'm more talking about the curing process to remove phosphates bound to the rock.....this is where my 2 cents came in and the fun curing part i was refering to , still not for the faint at heart but it does show that there's always more than way to the same goal.

As mentioned I'm sure the corals i placed in it had bacteria all over them so it's not a complete start from scratch ;)

[nbreau]

I just received a shipment of awesome pukani and shelf rock from Eli ... lots of people seem to suggest the acid bath route, but I can be patient ... if I'm setting up a new tank (currently empty) can I just add the rock to the tank, leave off the lights, and simply let it run for a few months in salt water with a heater until all the parameters look good ?

IF so would I expect this process to take weeks, months, years ? Does it depend on the amount of rock ? (roughly 70lbs) .. IF acid bathing cuts off a 6 month wait time I'll hop on that train ... but it's only 6-8 weeks until everything generally settles I can probably wait.

[Koleswrath]

Nbreau- curing time is dependant on the amount of organics and bound phosphate that the rock contains at the beginning. 6-8 weeks is reasonable on average though. Bleaching and rinsing will breakdown large organics and leave less to cure by bacterial action = faster. Phosphate in the rock needs to be broken off and used by bacteria until it is used up (via Eli's methods).

Reefwars- how did you release and export the bound phosphate in the rock without cooking it? (I'm assuming all dry rock comes from land based mines and is chock full of bound phosphates)

[Koleswrath]

I think we should be careful with statements like this. As Eli point out, not all bacteria are created equal. The kinds of bacteria I think you'e talking about, the nitrifiers that you need to process ammonia and nitrite, are not nearly as resilient as the heterotrophs that do the majority of the decomposing in a tank. Most heterotrophs can go in to a cyst stage when conditions or resources are not optimal, and as a result can be pretty resistant to things like drying, or storage for long periods in bottles of bacterial supplements, but the "true" nitrifiers, the nitrobacter and nitrosoma bacteria do not have that ability. They also reproduce VERY slowly, dividing once every 10-30 hours, vs once every 20 minutes for most of the carbon eating heterotrophs.

If something happens to disrupt a population of nitrifiers, be that a drying event or a sudden swing in temperature or chemistry (thought their tolerance for temp swings is likely greater than anything you'd pay to put in a tank), it can torpedo their numbers enough to cause a spike in ammonia.

Add to that there are different clades of chemo-autotrophs adapted to different concentrations of nitrogenous compounds. If ammonia gets high enough, you can start killing off large numbers of the kind that are adapted to the nearly undetectable levels of a reef. You'll never wipe them out completely, but these issues all contribute to the instability typically referred to as 'new tank syndrome'.

Anyway my point is that no, you'll never kill them all, but when we're talking about the kinds of bacteria that we care about to keep our fish alive, they are more delicate, and slower to rebound than "normal" bacteria. They get all their energy from the bonds between nitrogen and hydrogen or nitrogen and oxygen, and all their carbon from atmospheric CO2. Compared to bacteria that are metabolically "burning" complex carbohydrates with atmospheric oxygen, this is a costly way to meet your energy needs. Hence the lengthy division time, and why it takes so long to cycle a tank.


And very well said.

Greg

[reefwars]

Nbreau- curing time is dependant on the amount of organics and bound phosphate that the rock contains at the beginning. 6-8 weeks is reasonable on average though. Bleaching and rinsing will breakdown large organics and leave less to cure by bacterial action = faster. Phosphate in the rock needs to be broken off and used by bacteria until it is used up (via Eli's methods).

Reefwars- how did you release and export the bound phosphate in the rock without cooking it? (I'm assuming all dry rock comes from land based mines and is chock full of bound phosphates)

In order to truly remove it from the system (which is what I think you mean-nutrient export) most likely some phosphate was removed/bound via the gfo , I ran a batch of gfo which has only recently been changed right from the beginning , some through skimming and some is processed in the system down the chain through animals in the system .....basically The same way it would be exported in a tank that housed all liverock :)

As an added twist I use all tap water lol

Tank still has zero po4 on a Hanna , I changed out the gfo recently just to freshen it up :) and no nitrates ever.

Dose is still at 40mls of vinegar over a photo period

Tank has seen maybe 3 water changes now as I did another recently.

Up until now I had no liverock in the system , I added a few Pounds to my fuge as I'm babysitting a ruby red dragonette and didn't want it to starve so wants it to have some life to hunt off:)

If anything my rock should have been packed with phosphates , it sat in 6" of stale tap water while we tested the watfalls , half the rock is out of the water , full tap water , nps corals needing daily feedings and not that many water changes and gfo going on :)

I def could have done worse as i followed none of the protocal steps lol

Coraline has taken over the tank , Rocks are getting almost full coverage on Coraline , I've got feather dusters out the wazoo and glass gets lots of Copepods:)

No cheat in the fuge yet but I honestly doubt it would do much it doesnt in my larger system :)

However do as I preach which is take the steps prior and not as I do lol ;)

[reefwars]

It's also a possibility I got phosphate free rock lol

[Easto]

It's crazy what comes off these rocks.

First off, after 3 days the water smelled like a tank of urine and was foaming at the top.

Then I found a small dead crab floating on the top of the water.

I wonder what else is in there.

[Skimmin]

Yah agreed. I cured 250lbs and it smelled like death for at least a week or two. I actually sealed the tub it was in with poly and cut a hole I ran to a carbon filter. Its been in my tank since november now and looks beautiful now. Starting to colour up well. I found a dead urchin in mine lol.