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Cap'n
09-06-2004, 03:41 PM
OK, I have two 55gal tanks side-by-side and a sump underneath. The tanks are running independantly right now and the sump is not complete yet. I am planning on plumbing all three tanks in a series but I keep coming up against the problem of one of the overflows running dry because the other two tanks have slightly more flow. I really don't see how I can get all the outflow / inflow dialed in to match. Any easy solutions?

I'm almost at the point now to scrap this plan and simply have the two tanks share a common sump, but I think this will require adding even more equipment, and one of my main goals with this system is to minimize the amount of components.

Any input appreciated.

Invigor
09-06-2004, 04:05 PM
I assume it's running dry because of the simple physics is the return is going to take the easiest least restricted route, which would be the first tank, then the second, then the third.

Easist way to remidy this would to put a ball valve for the return to each tank so you can control the flow to each individual tank. In your case you would probably leave the tank furthest away with the least restriction and restrict the closest tank so the water is forced to go to the furthest tank.

The overflows will only pull out what's being put in. so depending on the design of your overflows you might get noisy overflows if you're not giving enough flow. I found U tube overflows to be able to take any amount of water and not be noisy where as I had a cpr and unless I ran it to full capacity, it was sounding like i was living beside a white rappid river. :|

Cap'n
09-06-2004, 04:33 PM
I assume it's running dry because of the simple physics is the return is going to take the easiest least restricted route, which would be the first tank, then the second, then the third.

Nothing is plumbed together right now, just theory. But you understand my problem correctly.

Easist way to remidy this would to put a ball valve for the return to each tank so you can control the flow to each individual tank. In your case you would probably leave the tank furthest away with the least restriction and restrict the closest tank so the water is forced to go to the furthest tank.

So you think there is no other way than to fiddle with the flows until I have the right combination?
There really isn't a "farthest" tank. Design is planned sump-reef-FOWLR-sump.

The overflows will only pull out what's being put in. so depending on the design of your overflows you might get noisy overflows if you're not giving enough flow. I found U tube overflows to be able to take any amount of water and not be noisy where as I had a cpr and unless I ran it to full capacity, it was sounding like i was living beside a white rappid river. :|

Three main concerns:
1) what happens when the power goes off?
2) what happens when the power comes back on?
3) how noisy is it going to be?

Richer
09-06-2004, 04:37 PM
Personally, I wouldn't have overflows on all of the tanks, only on one of them. I would put the return line on one tank, then the overflow on the tank farthest away from the return tank, then just plumb all of the tanks together (either by U-tubes that extend far enough down the tanks to prevent siphon breaks, or by drilling and connecting them). That way, you'll essentially have one big tank. Additional flow can be done with powerheads of closed loops.

-Richer

Invigor
09-06-2004, 04:41 PM
Three main concerns:
1) what happens when the power goes off?
2) what happens when the power comes back on?
3) how noisy is it going to be?

1) power goes off:
your tanks will drain however much the water level is over the overflow.
ie) I had a 48 gal tank running about 800gph, so the water lever was usually 1/2" over the lip of the overflow. When the power went out, that 1/2 of water went down so about 3 gallons EXTRA would flow into the sump. Not a big deal.
2) when the power comes back on, the water is pushed into the tank, it flows up and over the lip of the overflow, the overflow sends it back down to the sump given the syphon was not lost. if air got into the overflow and broke the syphon, I have a rio rvt hooked to the top of the airflow that sucks the air out and re-makes the syphon, then it drains normally. if there is air in the overflow it gets sucked out before there's enough water pumped into the tank to have it flow over the sides.
3) depends on how loud your pump is (i'm ungodly lucky and have the noisiest mag drive there is) and depending on the design of your overflow you might get zero noise from it, or a little trickle, or a loud splashing sucking noise.

my cpr running at full capacity was near silent.

Cap'n
09-06-2004, 04:54 PM
Personally, I wouldn't have overflows on all of the tanks, only on one of them. I would put the return line on one tank, then the overflow on the tank farthest away from the return tank, then just plumb all of the tanks together (either by U-tubes that extend far enough down the tanks to prevent siphon breaks, or by drilling and connecting them). That way, you'll essentially have one big tank. Additional flow can be done with powerheads of closed loops.

-Richer

I originally had planned on using only one overflow, but the more I thought about it the more it seemed necessary to have one on each tank. What if, for example, one powerhead or return pump fails. Then one of the tanks without an overflow could possibly flood. I'm just trying to cover all my bases.

Tanks are already set up and running, drilling is not an option. If I had U-tubes connecting the side-by-side tanks and the power went out wouldn't the siphon in the tubes continue and flood either one of the tanks? or the sump because of the gravity overflow?

Richer
09-06-2004, 05:11 PM
The water in your tanks would flow from one tank to the other until everything levels out. So if all of your tanks are level then no one tank should flood... unless all three tanks flood. So if the return pump should fail, then the water level in all of your tanks will continue to lower (and fill the sump) until the siphon to your sump is broken. You just need to ensure that the sump is large enough to accomodate the extra water volume if the power should go out. Basically, as long as all of your tanks are level, it will act like one big tank. The biggest potential problem I see is having one of your U-tubes clogging. If that happens, then you can have a flood, since water cannot flow to the next tank easily. Multiple U-tubes and screens should reduce that risk.

-Richer

Cap'n
09-06-2004, 05:18 PM
The water in your tanks would flow from one tank to the other until everything levels out.

Right! :idea: Of course!

OK, I'm liking this idea. But how do I get the siphon started once I get the U-tubes installed?

Cap'n
09-06-2004, 05:25 PM
Got it. Cap em and quickly submerge.

All right, doing some more research.

Thanks Richer, great way to make both tanks perform as one. That was causing me some problems in design, this simplifies it considerably.

StirCrazy
09-06-2004, 08:55 PM
OK my theory on the whole thing, forget trying to link them in series and put them in parallel. get one big pump and have it go to 3 outputs (one for each tank with a ball valve on each to tune the flow. then have each tank return to the common sump. this is what I have for my 25 gal except I use a separate pump in the sump for it.

Steve

Cap'n
09-06-2004, 10:48 PM
OK, the title of the thread is a bit deceiving, the third tank is the sump, so it would be even easier than you suggested StirCrazy. I am tempted to go this route, but I really don't want the extra external pump and all the added plumbing.

One thing I have to remind everyone with suggestions is that I am extremely, umm... cheap! and would like to do this with what I have on hand.

For example, I started up my high end graphics program to make the following diagram detailing my current plans. This may make it easier to pick apart, I mean, help me modify and troubleshoot.

.................................................. ..........
.........HOB..........................HOB......... ....
.......overflow <<<<<<<< skimmer.........
.....|...................|......|................. .|............
.....|..fish-only....|......|.....reef........|...........
.....|__________|.....|__________|...........
.............\/..................^..........................
.............\/..................^.........................
..........|..\/..........|>>>|...|...eheim............
..........|..sump.....|.....|....|..canister...... ....
..........|________|.....|__|....filter........... ..
.................................................. ...........

This is intended as a learning experience and will not be permanent. When we move into our own house the plan is to replace the 55gal fish-only with a 120. By that time I will probably be so sick of this ghetto setup that I will drill and plumb the whole thing properly. Until then, this is what I have to work with.

StirCrazy
09-07-2004, 01:01 AM
.................................................. ..........
.........HOB..........................HOB......... ....
.......overflow <<<<<<<< skimmer.........
.....|...................|......|................. .|............
.....|..fish-only....|......|.....reef........|...........
.....|__________|.....|__________|...........
.............\/..................^..........................
.............\/..................^.........................
..........|..\/..........|>>>|...|...eheim............
..........|..sump.....|.....|....|..canister...... ....
..........|________|.....|__|....filter........... ..
.................................................. ...........

This is intended as a learning experience and will not be permanent. .

yup and the biggest learning experience I see will be when your power goes out and then comes back on, the ehime and the skimmer will start back up but the overflow may not. this will be quite the experience of cleaning up water from the carpet :mrgreen:

I am going to stick to my original Idea, but I will make some other suggestions, put the skimmer on the sump so it will skim the common point of water, buy a couple cheep pumps (used what ever ) mag 5's will be simple. If you insist on using the ehime then only one more pump will be needed. if tanks are empty get them drilled, if not buy two overflows and have each one return to the sump.

this will give you two independent systems working off a common sump. sure the cost is a little bit more but not much and you don't have to worry about the whole system if one part fails. in your original idea if you are out for the day/weekend and your ehime fails there is no Water to replenish the first tank so your skimmer motor will drain it down until it loses suction then burn out from running dry. also the sump could overflow from the excess water depending on its working level.

in a different scenario your skimmer pump fails and the ehime just keeps pounding the water to the first tank and then it goes onto the floor because the skimmer pump isn't sending it to the second tank.

sooo, now if you rig it independently if the skimmer fails who cares, it just doesn't skim till you fix it, if one of the pumps fail it only stops circulation in that one tank and the other tank and sump are fine ... make since?

Steve

Cap'n
09-07-2004, 01:41 AM
Yeah, every time I played through the possible pump failure scenerios I always ended up with water on my imaginary floor. I think I'm going to have to give up on plumbing my two tanks together and simply have them share a common sump.

I did some research this afternoon into using U-tube siphons to connect them together but found more complaints than recommendations for that system. Still intriguing though...

Another possibility is cutting a small, square section at the top, back corner of each tank and building a channel to connect the two; return on one, overflow on the other. But, don't like the idea of cutting the tank...

Looks like I'm going with a shared sump. Essentially the same results anyhow.

Invigor
09-07-2004, 04:01 AM
if you're putting holes in it, just get a nice round hole in each tank and have it plumbed to enter the sump, and have the return pump plumbed nicely to have a return in each tank :mrgreen:

TANGOMAN
09-09-2004, 01:21 AM
If I'm lookin' at this correctly there may be one problem... :confused: . Is the Eheim intended as the return pump? I considered this years ago myself and was informed the canister will yield poor results as there is no gravity feed to the inlet of the canister. That gravity feed "boosts" the output, that was the theory. This may be wrong but something worth considering... :confused:
I agree with going parralel. U-tubes are a pain and unreliable. Take it from me, NEVER do the "temporary thing"... :wink:

Cap'n
09-09-2004, 05:21 AM
Yeah, the plan is totally reworked now. I have an external pump ordered which will return from the sump to both tanks. Each tank will have an overflow emptying into the shared sump. The contents of the eheim canister will be added to the sump / refuge and the filter will be moving to the cichlid tank.