Two Part Solution Problem- Help!

[straightrazorguy]

I am trying to tap into the collective wisdom here. I started my two part solution system a few months ago, as my kalkwasser additions no longer kept up with my growing coral collection. I automated the two part a month ago (before that I was doing it manually, as I was having issues with my Reefkeeper Elite head unit). I currently use Dowflake Calcium chloride and baking soda solution, dosed using BRS peristaltic pumps.

After some tweaking I found that dosing both CaCl and Alk solution for 36 minutes per day (split into four doses per day) gave me stable readings of 400-420 for Calcium and 7.5-8.5 dKH for Alk. Unfortunately a couple of my colonies started STN-ing. I checked the parameters again and I found the Alk started climbing over 9 dKH for no apparent reason. Yesterday I stopped adding Alk solution altogether, in the hope to let it fall naturally. I left the Kalkwasser dosing unchanged, i.e it keeps up with evaporation. This morning the Ca was at 440 and the Alk was 9.6dKH!

I can't make sense of this: I repeated the readings, tested for Mg which I found to be 1480. It doesn't make sense! I need some HELP!

Tank stats:

- 3 ft cube (150 gal) mixed display tank.
- Sump: approx 30 gal
- Skimmer: RLSS 6i
- Refugium: 55 gallon inline refugium full of cheato and live rock. Crawling with pods
- Corals: combo of SPS and LPS. Mostly small to medium frags.
- 10 Fish: 1 Yellow Tang, 1 Harlequin Tusk, 1 Copperband Butterfly, 1 Anthia, 1 Tamarin Wrasse, 1 Cleaner Wrasse, 2 Percula Clowns, 2 cleaner shrimp
- Params: undetectable nitrates and phoshates
- Reactors: ROWAphos, Biopellets, Kalk stirrer dosed via BRS dosing pump to keep up with evaporation

The tank was set up in April, when I upgraded and transferred all the live rock and corals from the 55 gallon that is now the refugium.

I started a tank journal which I sadly neglected:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=107802&page=2

[dcw1sfu]

QI had these same problems when dosing Kalkwasser with two part. The Kalkwasser wasn't consistent in keeping stable parameters as evaporation rates can change. Anyways I dropped the kalk all together and just dose 2 part now. I bake my baking soda to maintain PH.

Currently I dose alk and calcium every hour each separated by 30 mins. My calcium never various from 430 and my alk 8.0dkh.

The high alk could of caused the STN some people notice when running biopellets this happens. I'd drop the Kalk and then figure out how much 2 part u need to dose. This is also a good read if u haven't already.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/

[reefwars]

Your spike in Alk right now is the addition of an alkalinity supplement but growth has stopped , if your trying to drop your Alk cut the kalk altogether and dose calcium chloride only.

That last test is in the range of testing noise But none the less if things aren't using the Alk it won't drop and if Alk is being added it will only raise from there ;)

[straightrazorguy]

Thanks for your responses, guys. I guess I didn't make it totally clear: I dose Kalk in specific amounts (3 minutes of saturated solution every hour, i.e. 24 times a day). This keeps up with evaporation this time of year. I keep the kalk solution saturated via an Aquamedic kalk stirrer. Yesterday I dropped the kalk timing to 2min 40 sec avery hour. I have a separate topoff that adds straight RODI water to the sump if the kalk additions don't keep up with evaporation. I guess now that I dropped the kalk times, the ATO will add some water....

Yesterday I also unplugged the Alk doser from the Reefkeeper. I am still dosing the same amount of CaCl2 and the reduced amount of Kalk. I will test again tomorrow. If you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks for that article DCW1SFU. I read it many times. What confuses me is the fact that the article says to always add the same amount of Ca and Alk. It specifically says to resist tinkering with the amounts. If I did that, my Alk would be through the roof!...

[reefwars]

Thanks for your responses, guys. I guess I didn't make it totally clear: I dose Kalk in specific amounts (3 minutes of saturated solution every hour, i.e. 24 times a day). This keeps up with evaporation this time of year. I keep the kalk solution saturated via an Aquamedic kalk stirrer. Yesterday I dropped the kalk timing to 2min 40 sec avery hour. I have a separate topoff that adds straight RODI water to the sump if the kalk additions don't keep up with evaporation. I guess now that I dropped the kalk times, the ATO will add some water....

Yesterday I also unplugged the Alk doser from the Reefkeeper. I am still dosing the same amount of CaCl2 and the reduced amount of Kalk. I will test again tomorrow. If you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks for that article DCW1SFU. I read it many times. What confuses me is the fact that the article says to always add the same amount of Ca and Alk. It specifically says to resist tinkering with the amounts. If I did that, my Alk would be through the roof!...

Imm not sure what your not understanding , yes you would dose equal parts when things are growing healty.

If you still dosing cackium now the difference between yesterday and today isn't testable , that's why we say dose on Alk number not calcium numbers the day to day testing for calcium can't be relied on as the testing noise is too wide . Alk isn't but if things stop growing (Rtn/stn)) your daily consumption of alkalinity slows thus the dosing amounts.

Regarding the kalk added it's an Alk additive (ca too) so if there's nothing to consume it then it will stay the or will slowly drop as animals use it.


The article say to use fixed amnts as the solutions are weighed that way , corals use Alk and cal at a fixed ratio of 1.4 dkh for every 10ppm of calcium for every 1ppm of mg


An average system uses about 1 dkh a day so testing on calcium consumption can't be done on the same day ( you can't test a 10ppm drop)


How much dkh a day is your system using ?

[dcw1sfu]

As Reefwars has stated dose equal parts based on your alk consumption. That's the real measurement you want to get right as it can play the most detrimental role in coral health. Don't get me wrong calcium is very important but it's much harder to damage your corals with slightly higher or lower then desired calcium levels. Once you have figured out your alkalinity demand you can start tinkering a bit with calcium.

Also the addition of either supplement has a lowering and balancing effect on the other. To get my levels right initially I tested daily at roughly the same time for about two weeks. Now if I need to its very simple minor adjustments.

I'm telling you though I think you will be more successful taking the kalk offline. It's great on its own, but hard to use with the addition of two part. I also was really reluctant to take my kalk offline but since I did I have had extremely stable parameters.

Is there a reason you are adiment on continuing to run kalk?

[reefwars]

Fwiw calcium and Alk have no effect on each other although its common to her that they do , adding Alk will not lower or raise calcium and vice versa they are completely independent of themselves and one don't change the others number and technically can't ;)

I agree if your using kalk as a ph boost then sodium carbonate would be a Fine choice as well:)

[dcw1sfu]

Fwiw calcium and Alk have no effect on each other although its common to her that they do , adding Alk will not lower or raise calcium and vice versa they are completely independent of themselves and one don't change the others number and technically can't ;)

I agree if your using kalk as a ph boost then sodium carbonate would be a Fine choice as well:)

You are right there is not a direct relationship that adding one will automatically drop the other. I looked into this further. I was misinformed.

[reefwars]

You are right there is not a direct relationship that adding one will automatically drop the other. I looked into this further. I was misinformed.

I should note that This is only if we're talking about calcium chloride and bi/carbonate solutions though other Alk or calcium additives may be different , these two will only add what their supposed to and not affect the other:)

[The Guy]

What's your Magnesium level at, I understood from what I have read and listened to on the BRS site your Mag level needs to be at at 1300-1500ppm for your alk& cal dosing to be able to adjust & stabilize properly. I am no expert just sayin. Might be worth looking into. :juggle:

[straightrazorguy]

What's your Magnesium level at, I understood from what I have read and listened to on the BRS site your Mag level needs to be at at 1300-1500ppm for your alk& cal dosing to be able to adjust & stabilize properly. I am no expert just sayin. Might be worth looking into. :juggle:

I did. Yesterday Mg was 1480.

[straightrazorguy]

Update:
Today, the Alk was 9 dKH and the Ca 420. The Alk doser has been unplugged for 48 hrs now, so the alk levels are sustained at 9 by my kalk additions alone. I am still dosing the same amout of CaCl2 solution as ever....

[straightrazorguy]

I'm still puzzled as to why this imbalance occured. The STN wasn't severe enough (I didn't lose masses of corals) to radically reduce Alk consumption. The STN seems to continue (I fragged a couple of pieces to save some SPS). Still, for over a month I seemed to have dialed my levels with equal Ca and Alk solution additions on top of the Kalk addition at a fixed rate. That's why I am so reluctant to take the kalk offline.

What I would like to know is why, all of a sudden, Alk levels started to increase after more than a month of the all the parameters being balanced and steady. Has anybody else experienced this?

[reefwars]

I'm still puzzled as to why this imbalance occured. The STN wasn't severe enough (I didn't lose masses of corals) to radically reduce Alk consumption. The STN seems to continue (I fragged a couple of pieces to save some SPS). Still, for over a month I seemed to have dialed my levels with equal Ca and Alk solution additions on top of the Kalk addition at a fixed rate. That's why I am so reluctant to take the kalk offline.

What I would like to know is why, all of a sudden, Alk levels started to increase after more than a month of the all the parameters being balanced and steady. Has anybody else experienced this?

It's not hard to figure out , 8.5 to 9.0 isn't a big jump in fact it's barely out of testing noise . In any way you look at it alk declines only when being used , why these animals stopped using as much as they did could be many but the fact remains that in order for alk to rise you had to of added it , if the amount added doesn't equal to the amount used them bam a rise in alk

Calcium will follow they same rule only you won't see the difference day to day but may weekly.

So either the tests were errors, you added more alk than normal or animals stopped using it for whatever reason...it's as simple as that so you'll need to adjust accordingly

[straightrazorguy]

So either the tests were errors, you added more alk than normal or animals stopped using it for whatever reason...it's as simple as that so you'll need to adjust accordingly
I didn't change the amount dosed. I watched the alk climb steadily over a week. After being steady for a month or so, between Nov 1 and Nov 8 it went from the 7.6 - 8.2 range to 9.0 - 9.6 range. That is significant. I was still dosing the same amounts of Ca, Alk and Kalk automated via my Reefkeeper. That's what is so puzzling...

So, clearly the tank inhabitants stopped using that much. Why?

[reefwars]

I didn't change the amount dosed. I watched the alk climb steadily over a week. After being steady for a month or so, between Nov 1 and Nov 8 it went from the 7.6 - 8.2 range to 9.0 - 9.6 range. That is significant. I was still dosing the same amounts of Ca, Alk and Kalk automated via my Reefkeeper. That's what is so puzzling...

So, clearly the tank inhabitants stopped using that much. Why?

Maybe not solely but when stuff doesn't go right they shut down consumption , don't put pinpoint faith in your tests or your kalk either . I'm not sure why the corals would stop using it in your system the reasons are literally endless but it happens.

[straightrazorguy]

Thank you guys for all your thoughts. I am now running the tank with Kalk and CaCl2 solution additions only. The Alk dosing pump is still unplugged. The Ca levels are good (400-420) and the Alk is somewhat stable too (8.6-9 dKH).

Yesterday I checked nitrates and phosphates too and they were both zero. I did notice that other acro colonies are STNing from the base up. I just wish I knew what is causing this. Watching colonies STN helplessly is painful....

[dcw1sfu]

If running biopellets you may need to have ur alk in the 7-8 range. Many people that run biopellets report STN with alk levels above 8

[straightrazorguy]

Quick update: I finally broke down and took the kalk stirrer online. The Alk solution part of the two-part was offline for a coupl of days before that. The alkalinity took a couple of days to fall to today's range of 7.6-8.2. Which leads me to think my corals have shut down. What puzzles me is that I am now only adding Ca solution (part one of the two-part) at the same rate as before the STN started, and I can barely keep the Ca above 400.

I noticed STN startingin in a couple of other acros, including my green slimer. This is truly tragic....

[reefwars]

if you cut out the kalk but kept chloride the same as before the stn then your dosing less calcium as the kalk had calcium in it too so the chloride dose would need to be more to be the equivalent of both.

small differences in calcium are hard to control and test for ....it takes 1-2 weeks just to get an accurate consumption rate as the differences daily are to small.

sucks man every sps guys future and nightmare :)

[gregzz4]

Quick update: I finally broke down and took the kalk stirrer ...
I gather you meant to type 'offline'

Sorry to hear about your losses Catalin

Keep the Kalk stuff in case you ever need to remove the 2-part for some reason, but ya, you should have removed the Kalk from the equation when you started 2-part ...

BTW, I've just this week stopped using DowFlake Xtra
I suspect issues from it and have switched to J&L's Schlobster Calcium Chloride

I now have about 40lbs of ice melter on hand :lol:

[straightrazorguy]

I gather you meant to type 'offline'

Yes, Greg, I meant "offline". I still use Dow Flake CaCl2. What kind of issue do you suspect?

[mseepman]

I didn't see you mention what type of salt you are using...have you recently opened a new bucket? There can be other extenuating factors...not saying just salt but its something to consider.

[gregzz4]

What kind of issue do you suspect?

There's a chance it's causing my GHA issues
My problems started less than a couple months after I started using the Dow and I haven't been able to get it in check since (6 freakin' months :twised:)

[straightrazorguy]

I didn't see you mention what type of salt you are using...have you recently opened a new bucket? There can be other extenuating factors...not saying just salt but its something to consider.

Good point mseepman: I have always used IO salt. I don't remember starting a new bucket around the time of the problems. I also haven't made any huge water changes (I have been changing approx 5 gal per week). I test religiously and the parameters were always good.

I also use DOWflake for the calcium part, and Arm and Hammer baking soda for Alk. The Kalk I was using (offline now) was BRS Kalkwasser.

[straightrazorguy]

There's a chance it's causing my GHA issues
My problems started less than a couple months after I started using the Dow and I haven't been able to get it in check since (6 freakin' months :twised:)

Have the GHA abated since you stopped using Dowflake? Have you heard of it causing problems?

[gregzz4]

Have the GHA abated since you stopped using Dowflake? Have you heard of it causing problems?
Haven't heard of any issues, but the elevated Bromide levels amongst whatever else is in this non-lab grade stuff made my mind up to switch
I've only started using it this week and expect to not see any results for a couple months
I'm thinking it'll take many WCs to remove what's in the tank now

I hope to have my new NSW tank online over the next couple weeks
This will allow me to perform 25% WCs

[straightrazorguy]

Greg, did you test for bromide? What were the levels in your tank after a few months of Dowflake?

[gregzz4]

Is there even a hobbyist kit for it ?

[gregzz4]

Hmm, maybe it's Bromine we're worried about, and apparently there are kits available online ... I'll think on it

[gregzz4]

I've sent an e-mail to a local pool/spa joint (the guys next to J&L) so we'll see what's available locally after the weekend

[straightrazorguy]

Cool. Keep me posted Greg!

[straightrazorguy]

I read up on carbon dosing (biopellets) and alkalinity. The consensus seems to be that if you carbon does, then the Alk has to be close to natural seawater (i.e. 7-8 dKH).

It took about 4-5 days of no Kalk and no Alk solution added to bring the Alk down to the desired range. It read 7.6 this morning, which is in line with yesterday's reading. I've also been feeding the fish a fair bit and adding aminos and BRS reef chili for the corals, just in case the corals were starving. This morning I had the best polyp extension I've had in weeks. Hopefully this means they're out of the woods.

Now what?...

[reefwars]

I read up on carbon dosing (biopellets) and alkalinity. The consensus seems to be that if you carbon does, then the Alk has to be close to natural seawater (i.e. 7-8 dKH).

It took about 4-5 days of no Kalk and no Alk solution added to bring the Alk down to the desired range. It read 7.6 this morning, which is in line with yesterday's reading. I've also been feeding the fish a fair bit and adding aminos and BRS reef chili for the corals, just in case the corals were starving. This morning I had the best polyp extension I've had in weeks. Hopefully this means they're out of the woods.

Now what?...




the alk at 7-8 is only what some people noticed with acros whether this is true or not differs from person to person and there are still lots of people who carbon dose and have no issues with higher alk;)


i keep a dkh of 9 while i read zero for no3 and 0.006 for po4 so fairly low and have no issues with acros or hard corals in general :)

my system is carbon dosed with vinegar


so.........well now its time to go back to the basics its important to supply your demand for alk and calcium as there nothing else that adds to it , so monitor and add as needed.

don't make any drastic changes but change things that you feel you need to one at a time and monitor the results that ways you can find out whats sensitive or not in your system without having to guess.

glad to hear things are on the mend , fwiw its the rise in alk suddenly that hits corals hard , not just acros but most hard corals ....the drop can be as harm full if its as fast by allowing it to drop naturally and slowly the damage isn't near as severe:)

things should start to mend for you now again quickly:)

[gregzz4]

Cool. Keep me posted Greg!

No luck
The kit I looked at today only tests up to 13ppm
I'll let you know if I find something on the web ...

[straightrazorguy]

OK, so the Alk hit 7.0 dKH at the end of the photoperiod. Which means I need to start dosing. The question is what? Alk solution based on baking soda? Or Kalk?

I noticed that the pH hovers around 8 during the day, but falls to 7.86 at night. I am thinking of adding some kalk at night only. Small dose and test n the morning. Perhaps dose minute amounts of Alk solution during the day?

Any other ideas guys? I have no idea what to do...

[reefwars]

Soda ash over bicarbonate if you want a slight ph boost should help , do you run a fuge? :)

[straightrazorguy]

Yes, I have a 55 gallon fuge full of cheato, sand and some rock. I pump water from the middle compartment of the sump into one end of the fuge. It then overflows from the other end of the fuge and it drains by gravity into the return pump section of the sump. The fuge is full of pods and critters, which occasionally end up in the display tank to my copperband's delight...

[straightrazorguy]

Soda ash over bicarbonate if you want a slight ph boost should help , do you run a fuge? :)


So, are you saying no Kalk?

[reefwars]

So, are you saying no Kalk?

Both are fine really it's up to you if kalk worked before I can't see the harm in doing it again and works great as well I was just saying that sodium bicarbonate won't give a noticeable boost in ph whereas soda ash will give more:)

[gregzz4]

Hold it ..... :smile:

Leave the Kalk out of the equation while you're using 2-part - completely (I mentioned this once before)
Leave it in a cupboard in case you decide to stop using 2-part, but otherwise forget that you own it
Kalk will mess with your 2-part and confuse you

Having your pH drop overnight isn't an issue, and anything reading 8-8.3 during the day is all good
Don't fret over your pH, focus on your Big 3 and take it slow

You're trying to micromanage your tank and need to step back
Test your tank at the same time every day. I test mine about mid light cycle. You can do whatever you like, but test it away from dosing cycles

Just keep things between;
7-8dKh
410-420ish
1350

And don't panic if you're a bit off the #s

Start by testing daily with your dosers running and find a balance by adjusting your timers
Then switch to testing every few days or so once you see it's balanced
Then you can switch to weekly testing, or even go longer

Stop dosing Kalk :twised:

[straightrazorguy]

So, the Alk has been in the 7-8 range for over a week now and the STN continues. I fragged my slimer and some other acros, covered the skeleton part and part of the healthy tissue with Ecoteck coral glue and glued the frags. The STN continued past the glue on the frags and continued on the mother colonies too. I'm out of ideas and really bummed out!

My paramters are where I want them: Ca at 400-420, Alk at 7-8, PO4 at 0.03, nitrates undetectable. I fed aminos, I fed my fish heavily, etc. to no avail.

Ideas? Suggestions?

[denny_C]

So, the Alk has been in the 7-8 range for over a week now and the STN continues. I fragged my slimer and some other acros, covered the skeleton part and part of the healthy tissue with Ecoteck coral glue and glued the frags. The STN continued past the glue on the frags and continued on the mother colonies too. I'm out of ideas and really bummed out!

My paramters are where I want them: Ca at 400-420, Alk at 7-8, PO4 at 0.03, nitrates undetectable. I fed aminos, I fed my fish heavily, etc. to no avail.

Ideas? Suggestions?



most times things get worse before they get better , the damage is already done so all you can do now is wait to see how bad the damage is and what recovers , best you can do now is pray......as far as stopping stn goes there's lots of little tricks but none of them are a guarantee but getting the system stable is step one:)

good luck!:)

cheers

denny

[straightrazorguy]

Thanks Denny, wait is all I can do now. I'm out of tricks....

I just tested the Mg and found it to be 1520. It's always been on the high side, even though I haven't added Mg in months. I suspect the IO salt I use has high Mg. Either way, I don't think these levels are a problem. Or are they?...

[denny_C]

Thanks Denny, wait is all I can do now. I'm out of tricks....

I just tested the Mg and found it to be 1520. It's always been on the high side, even though I haven't added Mg in months. I suspect the IO salt I use has high Mg. Either way, I don't think these levels are a problem. Or are they?...

no they wont be , excess mg wont hurt and most likely the salt would be the cause :)


best of luck man i know the feeling :)