Save my tank!

[jason604]

Up until last week my tank been battling long hair algae and most my sps lost color and turned semi brown but my LPS and zoas were thriving. Till the first day of the semi crash I saw most of my sps frags totally dead overnight with its skin peeled off but doesn't look like RTN. Some of my largest colonies are having STN. None of my zoas of diff types are opened and LPS are opened a lol smaller than usual but still looks healthy. I did a large 40g water change for my 75g system and it seem to have help stopped the sps wipeout so far but colonies still STN. The first night that I notice my sps dying I did a water test and saw my KH was around 9. I always keep my KH around 7 and I normally always have a problem with it dropped but I don't now how it raised. I use a auto doser and the amt I dose is always the same. My cal and mag is the same as it's always been ca 330 an mag mid 1300s. I rly need help I am lost in what to from
Here and any tip will help. Or even if someone is nice enough to come over and see my system to see what I am doing wrong or can improve on.

[Aquattro]

CA should be higher than 330. At least 380, preferably 400ish. Alk of 9 is fine.

[Slyguy00]

I keep my alk at 9-10, ca at 450 and mag at 1400. Don't think those are your problems though. Id be testing phosphates and nitrates asap.

[reefwars]

Also check for aefw if you haven't yet may not be root cause but one of many

[jason604]

My phosphate an nitrate always shows 0 but I'm pretty sure it's there ur to all my long hair algae and tons of Ditris I hVe on my rocks n bottom of sump. Phosphate I use salifert and nitrate is seachem. My sea hair I got last week back split and died today. I had a fish die last week I'm not sure it if was natural cause or not cuz all my other fishes r rly healthy. My shrimps n crabs ate the dead fish n by the time I notice there was only the head spine and tail fin left. I'm goin to do another 40g water change tomorrow.

[jason604]

Also check for aefw if you haven't yet may not be root cause but one of many

What do they look like

[Slyguy00]

very very hard to see. tiny little flat worms on your acros. I think that is unlikely though.

[Skim]

Coral was colourful and started to turn brown, most of the time it mean's Phosphate and build up of Organics.

This is what I would do. Pull any GFO and GAC and go get some Seachem Purigen and couple of the Seachem " The Bag " put it your sump or better would be Canister or a AquaClear Hang on. This stuff removes Organics quickly and you should see things get better and your Phosphates should drop also.
The other thing is make sure your skimmer is working at 100% clean the neck and make sure there is no blockage of the Air supply.
Do not dose or add any 2 part solution if that's what you use for now as it also adds Trace Elements that could feed the Algae.
Good Luck!

Mike

[gregzz4]

What have you done/changed over the last 2 or 3 months ?

I know with my tank I've run into problems that caused some hair algae.
From there, my corals started to suffer as I didn't address my higher-than-normal PO4 and I not only got some browning corals, but I also ended up with a fully blown out GHA issue. It was everywhere and out of control

I lost a couple SPS during the battle. Some due to GHA, and some due to my over-zealous hydrogen peroxide dosing ... my whole tank went into shock after I decided to kill every last living spot of GHA I could see.
It worked for a couple weeks, and my corals are coming back, but I'd not do it again so aggressively

I ended up doing a lot of small carbon changes to try to remove whatever happened to my tank as I still have no idea what happened.
Near as I can tell I killed a bunch of bacteria ..
Regardless, if your corals are upset, carbon is your friend :wink:

My softies survived all this just fine, as they will mostly do

Hi PO4 can upset SPS, and so can fluctuations in salinity and Alk

As Brad stated, your Ca is a bit low, and IMHO your Alk could be a tad higher.
I like to try my best to hit 7-8 Alk, 410-420 Ca and 1350 Mag

Keeping your Alk just a tad higher (7.5) gives you the wiggle room if your corals start to use more. Keeping it @ 7 is OK, but if they use more than normal, it can dip too low before you know it

The best thing you can do is keep it stable for now and, as I'm doing, ride it out and see if things turn around

Good luck dude :smile:

[jason604]

So here's what changed. About 2-3 months ago my tank was beautiful no algae in sight and my sps were super vibrant n just pops. Till one day I saw some hair algae n just left it alone. Next thing u no it my tank was had a full blown long hair algae outbreak. It began to smother zoas n sps etc but the colours were still vibrant none he less. I bought more larger sps and had no room to place it so I have to put it at the end of my tank but I'm only running 1 16" led fixture on a 4' tank so I decided to raise my lights about 5-6" higher to make sure my new colonies had light shine on them. The very next day most of my sps all browned out right away due to the shock of light I'm sure. I lowered it a few days later back to the original height but my vibrant sps colours didn't rly come back and I was stuck with an ugly brown tank filled with long hair algae. So after seeking for advice here I tried getting a reactor n filled it with about 2" of rowaphos. Then few weeks later is when I had my semi tank sps crash. I'm thinking there's something in my rocks. I did purchase a bunch of base rock and bleach/ muriatic acid bath and put my tank water in it so it will cycle faster. I'm planning to swap all the rocks in my tank with my new rocks when it's done cycling. I'm not sure if using my old tank water is a good idea to cycle the new rocks or not but so far I only did it once and didn't change the water yet. I'm planning to drain the water and fill it with my tank water again tomorrow when I change the water or should I just make new clean saltwater for my new rocks?

[Slyguy00]

Sounds like you have several issues. First you need more light if you want sps. Secondly your phosphates were high you added rowa and pulled it out to fast and that is very hard on sps. And as far as algae goes I would think it was due to your high phosphates. If you wonna fix your algae problem there's only one effective way to do that. And that would be black out your tank. It amazes. Me people still go to all these great lengths to get rid of it when all you have to do is give your Tank 3 or 4 days of complete darkness. After that I bet money 95% of your algae is gone. I would also remove some rowa out of your reactor. That's just my opinion but that's what I would do. Not sure how much flow you have in your tank but increasing that would also prevent algae and detrius. Good luck

[gregzz4]

I did a 4-day blackout and it weakened, but didn't eradicate, my GHA

I'd use new water for cycling your new rock. Your tank water will likely add stuff you are trying to remove

[Reef Pilot]

I know SPS don't like change, esp any kind of rapid change. Earlier this year, my P04 got a little higher, from near zero (hanna digital checker) to about 0.10, and noticed some of my SPS lose color and grow slower. I also disconnected my bio pellet reactor, and my N03 crept up to 30 ppm. I am sure that didn't help either. And GHA took off with a vengeance, too.

Then this summer, I had a problem where my KH doser line plugged, and my KH fell to 5 before I figured that out (was away a lot). Once I fixed that, I upped it to about 9 (miscalculated and did it too fast). After that, I noticed real problems,... white burnt tips on some of my SPS, and big loss in color as well as some STN on some SPS.

Took me a while to get everything stabilized, and meanwhile some of the STN turned into RTN, and lost some of my prized SPS. It took about a month or more after my tank was stabilized before my SPS started to turn around.

Good news, though, is that everything now is looking much better, and growth and color is returning (although still a ways to go from what I had before). I think it just needs more time now, and have to keep everything very constant and stable, esp that KH. My GHA has pretty well disappeared too (needed consistent zero P04 and zero N03 before that let up).

[jason604]

Last time I tried a 3 day blackout I couldn't find my total pitch black sheets n just used a bunch if bed sheets lol. A bit of lights still went through. When I finish the 3 days I did notice a bit of algae gone but my sps looked worse and had some RTN. Since my tank is very delicate right now is it a good idea to do another blackout or wait till it heals? K I'll make new water for my new rocks instead of tank water

[Masonjames]

Debris removal. Nuff said. When this is lacking, all we do is throw a mess of "solutions" at the system trying to correct it throwing things out of balance, waisting time, money, media, equipment, livestock, chemicals, etc. when this becomes the main focus of husbandry practice, many of these "solutions" become irrelevant. Granted allot of these solutions can work fantastic and each can have a successful benefit when used correctly but every action has a reaction and once we start adding in the potential for human error well...

The most valuable and effective piece of equipment a hobbyist can have at there disposal costs next to nothing, is available almost anywhere, comes in a variety of colors, sizes, and can be customized at any length, can be upgraded with unique attachments all suited for an individuals needs, and can ward off so many problems we constantly encounter. Of coarse assuming all parameters are kept in check through equal diligence.

[jason604]

Yea I agree about Derris removal. Tons and tons of Derris comes out of my rocks when I turkey blast it but not enough is going down my hang on back overflow to be picked up in my skimmer in time b4 it sets back into the rocks. I have tons of 1 lbs rocks in my tank so Derris get traps so easily this is why I bought all new rocks so I can change my aquascape to allow a lot of flow around rocks. Ok I do have one of those hang on back aquaclear filters but what should i put in it since I'm already running carbon in my reactor?

[Masonjames]

If you can't get the debris out through the overflow you gotta get it out through siphon. If you have a sump and filter sock just run siphon from display into sock placed in sump. You can siphon all day long like that if you want. Promptly remove sock after finished. Make that part of your regular maintenance schedule, new rocks or not.

[asylumdown]

So here's what changed. About 2-3 months ago my tank was beautiful no algae in sight and my sps were super vibrant n just pops. Till one day I saw some hair algae n just left it alone. Next thing u no it my tank was had a full blown long hair algae outbreak. It began to smother zoas n sps etc but the colours were still vibrant none he less. I bought more larger sps and had no room to place it so I have to put it at the end of my tank but I'm only running 1 16" led fixture on a 4' tank so I decided to raise my lights about 5-6" higher to make sure my new colonies had light shine on them. The very next day most of my sps all browned out right away due to the shock of light I'm sure. I lowered it a few days later back to the original height but my vibrant sps colours didn't rly come back and I was stuck with an ugly brown tank filled with long hair algae. So after seeking for advice here I tried getting a reactor n filled it with about 2" of rowaphos. Then few weeks later is when I had my semi tank sps crash. I'm thinking there's something in my rocks. I did purchase a bunch of base rock and bleach/ muriatic acid bath and put my tank water in it so it will cycle faster. I'm planning to swap all the rocks in my tank with my new rocks when it's done cycling. I'm not sure if using my old tank water is a good idea to cycle the new rocks or not but so far I only did it once and didn't change the water yet. I'm planning to drain the water and fill it with my tank water again tomorrow when I change the water or should I just make new clean saltwater for my new rocks?

I don't think there's anything in your rocks. Nutrients have to be incredibly low to inhibit the growth of some kinds of "hair" algae, much lower than most people can or want to run their tanks at. It's why it's an invasive species in large parts of the world to which it has been introduced by humans.

In nature, it's not low nutrients that keep it in check (thought that can help), but a massive cohort of herbivores that suppress it enough to favour stony corals.

Hair algae, like most things in the ocean that need to compete for limited substrate, wage chemical war on their competition. They emit all sorts of nasty alellopathic chemicals that range from halting the growth of corals, to outright killing them.

If I were a betting man, I'd say you introduced spores of a particularly nasty kind of hair algae on a coral or frag, conditions were favourable for it, you don't have anything that eats it, and now it's killing your coral. Yes, you should keep nutrients within the range of the reef you're trying to keep - something that is hard to measure with rampant growth of a problem algae as it will mask your inputs while being a better competitor for nutrients than your gfo reactor - but you also need to kill that algae.

When weeds start growing in your garden, it doesn't necessarily mean there is something wrong with your soil. It means weed seeds have made it in to the garden. You wouldn't try to leach the soil of all nitrogen and phosphorous to get them out - you'd weed it.

My suggestion is to find some AlgaefixMarine, and nuke the heck out of that algae. Nutrients aside, I bet your surviving corals will see near instant improvement once the majority of that algae is dead. Even if you do have a nutrient 'problem', you're never going to be able to properly diagnose it, or put in a system that's better at competing for them with a lush growth of hair algae in the tank. It's always the tanks with the worst algae problems that measure '0' nitrate and phosphate, which, for the record means there's not a whole of anything for GFO to suck out of the water column.

[Masonjames]

I don't think there's anything in your rocks. Nutrients have to be incredibly low to inhibit the growth of some kinds of "hair" algae, much lower than most people can or want to run their tanks at. It's why it's an invasive species in large parts of the world to which it has been introduced by humans.

In nature, it's not low nutrients that keep it in check (thought that can help), but a massive cohort of herbivores that suppress it enough to favour stony corals.

Hair algae, like most things in the ocean that need to compete for limited substrate, wage chemical war on their competition. They emit all sorts of nasty alellopathic chemicals that range from halting the growth of corals, to outright killing them.

If I were a betting man, I'd say you introduced spores of a particularly nasty kind of hair algae on a coral or frag, conditions were favourable for it, you don't have anything that eats it, and now it's killing your coral. Yes, you should keep nutrients within the range of the reef you're trying to keep - something that is hard to measure with rampant growth of a problem algae as it will mask your inputs while being a better competitor for nutrients than your gfo reactor - but you also need to kill that algae.

When weeds start growing in your garden, it doesn't necessarily mean there is something wrong with your soil. It means weed seeds have made it in to the garden. You wouldn't try to leach the soil of all nitrogen and phosphorous to get them out - you'd weed it.

My suggestion is to find some AlgaefixMarine, and nuke the heck out of that algae. Nutrients aside, I bet your surviving corals will see near instant improvement once the majority of that algae is dead. Even if you do have a nutrient 'problem', you're never going to be able to properly diagnose it, or put in a system that's better at competing for them with a lush growth of hair algae in the tank. It's always the tanks with the worst algae problems that measure '0' nitrate and phosphate, which, for the record means there's not a whole of anything for GFO to suck out of the water column.


Okay? Seems like backwards thinking to me. I again will say, go after the root cause. You've said already you have an issue with debris buildup. It's very simple. Get it out. And work to keep it out. If you want to keep poo as a pet then by all means, invest in all the livestock, all the equipment and medias and chemicals, all the frustration, to properly house this pet. We have some very ingenious practices to successful house these poo pets in our system so this may in deed be your best approach if you wish to keep them. But keeping these poo pets has led you to the place you are today. So ask yourself if keeping poo is part of the practices you wish to continue to engage in.

Again, there are allot of great means to help you control nutrients within your system and I myself would encourage you to run gfo and you may in fact want to include some livestock to help you control it. But you have to remember these approaches are all a day late to the party. They do not address the root cause. Get the crap out before it even becomes an issue.

[asylumdown]

Okay? Seems like backwards thinking to me. I again will say, go after the root cause. You've said already you have an issue with debris buildup. It's very simple. Get it out. And work to keep it out. If you want to keep poo as a pet then by all means, invest in all the livestock, all the equipment and medias and chemicals, all the frustration, to properly house this pet. We have some very ingenious practices to successful house these poo pets in our system so this may in deed be your best approach if you wish to keep them. But keeping these poo pets has led you to the place you are today. So ask yourself if keeping poo is part of the practices you wish to continue to engage in.

Again, there are allot of great means to help you control nutrients within your system and I myself would encourage you to run gfo and you may in fact want to include some livestock to help you control it. But you have to remember these approaches are all a day late to the party. They do not address the root cause. Get the crap out before it even becomes an issue.

I'd agree with this, but not because I think the detritus itself is causing nutrient issues. If the detritus is building up, it means the export systems aren't working very well and that there's dead spots. By the time you see it as 'detritus', it's pretty much inert refractory organic matter, most of which is produced as a byproduct bacterial metabolism and is as decomposed as it's ever going to get. Vacuuming up the detritus is like vacuuming up a pot plat that's been knocked over on to your carpet - the dirt's already spilled, so to speak.

The stuff you should care about, uneaten food and fish poo, gets scavenged and eaten by critters and bacteria very quickly. Yes, detritus is the eventual end result, but if you've got detritus accumulating it means you probably don't have enough flow in enough places to get the stuff you should care about to your skimmer/filter socks before it breaks down. Vacuuming up the mess is pointless. preventing the mess from accumulating in the first place is important. Perhaps we're arguing the same point.

However, I still stand by the premise that the "root cause" of many problem algaes is no more complicated than the presence of that algae in the first place. Just like the root cause of dandelions in my back yard is the dandelions growing in the alley behind it. A great many (most?) of the corals we keep come from waters with enough nutrients in them to support verdant growth of macro and micro algae. Reefs dying under a choking chemical assault from lush fields of simple 'hair' type algae is a well known consequence of humans fishing out all the herbivores on a reef.

The OP has already stated that his PO4 readings are undetectable, because the algae is sucking it up as fast as it's produced. GFO is great at lowering PO4 when it's present in detectable quantities, that's been shown in test after test. But he doesn't have any PO4 in his water to lower. The algae already sucked it all up. And what's a better competitor for new P as it's added: A bed of algae in the same box where all the P is added, with an absorbable surface area probably measured in square kms, receiving 100% of the flow of the system across it every few minutes, or a teeny tiny reactor in the sump that gets the equivalent of 100% of the tank's water through it every few hours? On top of that the algae is producing a slew of tannins and noxious chemicals designed over hundreds of millions of years specifically to kill the competition.

Step one should be removing the algae. Step two should be adding flow and rearranging the rocks. Step three, once the algae is dead and gone, should be diagnosing whether a nutrient problem actually exists or not. If the OP removes all the algae and phosphate and nitrate levels climb to unacceptable levels, then there's things that can be done. But they might not, and anything you do to try and control nutrients while the algae is in there is going to be like trying to roll a boulder uphill.

There is a simple, safe, and effective treatment for almost all kinds of hair algae. Thousands of people (including myself) have used it, and other than a few anecdotal cases of some shrimp or some coral reacting negatively, most people (including myself) see an immediate improvement in the vigour and colour of their corals once the hair algae starts to die.

[Aquattro]

They do not address the root cause. Get the crap out before it even becomes an issue.

Agreed. I had hair algae from detritus, and fueled by nutrients in the new rock. I corrected flow, turkey basted the crap out of the rock and changed lots of water as required. Today I have no algae in my tank, and I didn't use any magic bullet to get there. Get the crap out of the water, algae will have nothing to use as food.

[jason604]

Where ca n I can this algae fix marine and can it be used with rowaphos same time? During yesterday's large water change I was able to get mybe 60-70% of my debris out in my display and sump. Took me about 5 hrs!!!! Some of my more damaged sps didn't look so good after most likely to that they were above the water for a extended time. I did splash water on them every so often during the clean. If I want to add another led fixture should I wait and let my sps heal first or just do it since some of my sps at the end of my tank is slowly dying due to lack of light. And when I want to change out all my live rocks do I have to do it really slowly 10lbs or so at a time so it won't shock and crash my tank further or is there a better way? Experts share your knowledge =)

[asylumdown]

I'm not sure who sells it locally. I haven't used it a couple of years, I think I bought mine off eBay when I had trouble finding it in Canada.

I had a plague of hair algae in my tank that was probably a normal part of it's first year of life, but I was also running heaps of GFO, biopellets, and was feeding very little in a tank with a massive amount of flow. All my sps were pale, looked like crap, not growing, and anywhere the hair algae encroached on their bases, tissue receded.

The algae fix marine took out all the hair algae in about 2 weeks. Corals that had been in suspended animation for months started plating out and growing like mad, and everything changed colour in a drastic way. At no point did I ever measure detectable levels of N or P.

About a year later it started growing in my overflows again, but I have a doliatus rabbit in the display now so I think any that grows in there gets immediately eaten.

[Reefer Rob]

You can order Algaefix from Amazon.ca

Some algae is so toxic nothing can eat it, and it can out survive your corals at the nutrient game. If you havn't dealt with a real nasty strain of hair algae you might think it's easy to get rid of. Some pests are a real PITA!

[Reefer Rob]

I'd agree with this, but not because I think the detritus itself is causing nutrient issues. If the detritus is building up, it means the export systems aren't working very well and that there's dead spots. By the time you see it as 'detritus', it's pretty much inert refractory organic matter, most of which is produced as a byproduct bacterial metabolism and is as decomposed as it's ever going to get. Vacuuming up the detritus is like vacuuming up a pot plat that's been knocked over on to your carpet - the dirt's already spilled, so to speak.

The stuff you should care about, uneaten food and fish poo, gets scavenged and eaten by critters and bacteria very quickly. Yes, detritus is the eventual end result, but if you've got detritus accumulating it means you probably don't have enough flow in enough places to get the stuff you should care about to your skimmer/filter socks before it breaks down. Vacuuming up the mess is pointless. preventing the mess from accumulating in the first place is important. Perhaps we're arguing the same point.

However, I still stand by the premise that the "root cause" of many problem algaes is no more complicated than the presence of that algae in the first place. Just like the root cause of dandelions in my back yard is the dandelions growing in the alley behind it. A great many (most?) of the corals we keep come from waters with enough nutrients in them to support verdant growth of macro and micro algae. Reefs dying under a choking chemical assault from lush fields of simple 'hair' type algae is a well known consequence of humans fishing out all the herbivores on a reef.

The OP has already stated that his PO4 readings are undetectable, because the algae is sucking it up as fast as it's produced. GFO is great at lowering PO4 when it's present in detectable quantities, that's been shown in test after test. But he doesn't have any PO4 in his water to lower. The algae already sucked it all up. And what's a better competitor for new P as it's added: A bed of algae in the same box where all the P is added, with an absorbable surface area probably measured in square kms, receiving 100% of the flow of the system across it every few minutes, or a teeny tiny reactor in the sump that gets the equivalent of 100% of the tank's water through it every few hours? On top of that the algae is producing a slew of tannins and noxious chemicals designed over hundreds of millions of years specifically to kill the competition.

Step one should be removing the algae. Step two should be adding flow and rearranging the rocks. Step three, once the algae is dead and gone, should be diagnosing whether a nutrient problem actually exists or not. If the OP removes all the algae and phosphate and nitrate levels climb to unacceptable levels, then there's things that can be done. But they might not, and anything you do to try and control nutrients while the algae is in there is going to be like trying to roll a boulder uphill.

There is a simple, safe, and effective treatment for almost all kinds of hair algae. Thousands of people (including myself) have used it, and other than a few anecdotal cases of some shrimp or some coral reacting negatively, most people (including myself) see an immediate improvement in the vigour and colour of their corals once the hair algae starts to die.

BTW +1 to this! Having dealt with "toxic hair algae" in a bare bottom tank, with lots of flow and no detritus build up, and nutrients always undetectable, this is the approach I'd recommend as well.

[jason604]

You can order Algaefix from Amazon.ca

Some algae is so toxic nothing can eat it, and it can out survive your corals at the nutrient game. If you havn't dealt with a real nasty strain of hair algae you might think it's easy to get rid of. Some pests are a real PITA!

Thx I'll check it out. My yellow tang does munch out every so often at it if it is short like half inch. But most are 2-4 inches. The best is for sure the sea hare but first one I got that instantly went for the 4" algae patch n cleaned it up instantly as it went in my tank died horrible by my brain coral that night. He was being devoured alive. My second sea hare last a week but I never saw him eat the green hair but instead went for the film algae which I think is useless. He went to half his size and back split open and stiffen n died. Don't y he died but I did see my shrimps pick at him all the time. I have 4 aggressive shrimps so I'm not sure if I should go buy another sea hare.

Is this the one u guys used with success? http://www.amazon.ca/API-Fishcare-Algaefix-Marine-16-Ounce/dp/B0017JHBGY/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413751660&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Algae+fix+marine

[Reefer Rob]

That's the one. The bottle will say Algaefix (freshwater) but it's the same stuff.

[Reefer Rob]

Another BTW:

Be careful! If you have algae as toxic as the strain I had, the dying algae will will nuke your tank. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself. 2 weeks before I used the Algaefix I scrubbed off all the algae with a tooth brush, and caught it in a filter sock, it was everywhere anyhow. The next morning almost all my corals were bleached, and some had almost completely RTNed.

[jason604]

Another BTW:

Be careful! If you have algae as toxic as the strain I had, the dying algae will will nuke your tank. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself. 2 weeks before I used the Algaefix I scrubbed off all the algae with a tooth brush, and caught it in a filter sock, it was everywhere anyhow. The next morning almost all my corals were bleached, and some had almost completely RTNed.

How I avoid that

[Reefer Rob]

How I avoid that

Remove as much algae as you can by plucking with your fingers or hemostats, dipping them in a fresh water container after each pluck. If you scrub, only do a small section as a test first. Algae as toxic as the strain I had would seem to be very rare.

[Tn23]

Jason, I'm not sure what kind of hair algae you have but when I went on vacation for 4 weeks and came back my tank was covered in green hair algae .

I bought a yellow foxface and within the next couple of days all my algae was gone again. However I also did do some large W/C as well.

Try using your hands and manually removing as much as you can. If it's just on a few pieces of rock, remove the rocks and treat or care for them outside your aquarium to avoid harming all your corals.

[Masonjames]

I agree the op has an issue to correct. And there are many tools at his disposal to do so. Debris (poop/food) removal at this point may not be enough. So I support any sound advice that is offered to aid him in doing so.

I do find it amusing however that far to often we side step such simple and basic ideals and practices. We do a find job of offering up corrective measures but dispute such simple practices as picking up a siphon hose and removing debris. Debris is crap, uneaten foods, all the junk of the system. Who cares what stage it is in or the correct terminology of the word. If it's gotten to the point of becoming inert then maybe it's time to question why we're allowing it to remain in our systems long enough for it to get to that point.

No op, debris (poop/food) is not your problem. Don't blame yourself because you didn't clean up your pets s**t and by doing so created an environment you did not wish for.

We've learned in our civilized way of life we cannot keep our own crap, or uneaten foods around for very long. We have learned we must flush the toilet, tend to uneaten foods, pick up our dog crap etc. Why do we bother though? Nature has a way of processing crap and spoiled foods. I mean there are flys, and bugs and all types of critters and scavengers after all that can process that for us in nature. If a bear craps in the woods I'm sure no one will notice or care. If my dog craps in my yard. I'm going to clean it up. Why, because we have learned we cannot keep these things around. Despite what nature does.

So why do we justify keeping it in our tanks?

Do what you have to do to correct this issue your facing. You may in fact need an arsenal of corrective measures to do so at this point. But I hope all you take from anything I've said is a slightly different look at your husbandry practises going forward. Keeping poo as a pet in your home aquarium is by far the most expensive, challenging and frustrating creature you can keep. A quick and regular siphon can take minutes and your tank will be the better for your diligence and you can keep more money in your pocket and more time to invest in the things you really want to keep. Your fishes and coral.

[input80]

Remove as much algae as you can by plucking with your fingers or hemostats, dipping them in a fresh water container after each pluck.

+1 for sure

[Reefer Rob]

If you have fish waste accumulating in your tank you need more flow to keep it in suspension so it can be removed by your skimmer.

[Masonjames]

If you have fish waste accumulating in your tank you need more flow to keep it in suspension so it can be removed by your skimmer.

Am I seriously the only one who siphons? Lol. I feel like I'm doing something taboo...

I have massive amounts of flow. Yet I still get settling and debris accumulating. I still need to siphon. Id bet my money you yourself have debris accumulating someplace.

[Reefer Rob]

Sure I siphon once in a while. It's more for aesthetics, I like to keep my bare bottom clean :redface: Otherwise basting occasionally to blow detritus out of the inevitable dead spots.

[jason604]

I vacuum my sand on each water change to get as much debris that falls down as I can but I really think it's my noob rock work that causes so much Ditris to accumulate and cause a giant algae bloom. Here's a pic of my tank in its prime but it also shows u novice rock work and why I really want to change my rocks. It's 3 boulders on the bottom that supports 1 large plate piece from 1 end of my tank to other and a ton of small fist size pieces with corals on top. So all the garbage gets trap under the small pieces and sits on top of the large plate. Flow can't get to it.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/4432A52C-AB93-405A-AF5C-CE5AFCCFB43D_zps49kdb2gp.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/4432A52C-AB93-405A-AF5C-CE5AFCCFB43D_zps49kdb2gp.jpg.html)

This layout also does not allow my sps to grow and I can't fit much. What I want to do now is build 2 or 3 towers with a bridge. That way there's ton of space for things to grow and fishes to swim.

[Masonjames]

That tank looks fantastic! It's a bummer your having some issues at the moment but it sounds like your on a good track to sort it out! Will be great to see an update once you get the new scape up and things settled in : )

[jason604]

That tank looks fantastic! It's a bummer your having some issues at the moment but it sounds like your on a good track to sort it out! Will be great to see an update once you get the new scape up and things settled in : )

Thx! I'm scared to show a pic of what it looks like now lol. Also before I changed my tank water yesterday I tested my new salt water which I never do and saw kh at 10 which is good but cal is 350 and mag at 1100. This is why my I can't get my cal n mag up to proper lvls. Mix is instant ocean

[jason604]

My green hulk colony is still lush green as ever. Things a tank

[jason604]

K so here's some pics of what some of my remaining corals look like and what it was when it wa healthy. It's rly pale n looks like it's dried out of water for a day. Some others that I didn't take pics of r all brown. Sps doctors please diagnose

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/0A5DB148-DDB0-432E-8DD2-08BEE0C915C8_zpspfpstlxp.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/0A5DB148-DDB0-432E-8DD2-08BEE0C915C8_zpspfpstlxp.jpg.html)

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/BF98AFED-8174-4AAB-8D73-92088968B367_zpszx5s1osl.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/BF98AFED-8174-4AAB-8D73-92088968B367_zpszx5s1osl.jpg.html)

Mybe my rowaphos did pull out the nutrient too fast n pales my sps but how does it explain my other sps brown and still so muh algae alive? My green hulk colony is still lush green as ever. This thing is a tank

[Slyguy00]

It looks like lighting may have something to do with your sps browning out. If it was me, I would add a lot more flow and light to your tank. Just my opinion

[jason604]

It looks like lighting may have something to do with your sps browning out. If it was me, I would add a lot more flow and light to your tank. Just my opinion

Wouldn't adding another fixture now cause the algae to go full blown? Maybe I should do another 3-4 day blackout again. My sps are already all messed up anyways. If darkness will stress them out further then what can I do right

[Galizio]

Hey there, I have a full bottle of algae fix 473 ml and a little in a small bottle,I give to you for a 20$... I refuse to use them, I don't even know why I got them, I'll stick to water change and manual removal of the algae, and focus on what really is the cause of the algae bloom... But if you want the algae fix let me know, is no use for me....

[Slyguy00]

Wouldn't adding another fixture now cause the algae to go full blown? Maybe I should do another 3-4 day blackout again. My sps are already all messed up anyways. If darkness will stress them out further then what can I do right

Well if you do add more light just do it slowly over time. If your water parameters are in check algae shouldn't get any worse, and it might benefit your coral quite a bit. If you do what has been recommended above and add some light I think it would help a lot. Just my 2 cents. Hope you find a solution

[jason604]

Hey there, I have a full bottle of algae fix 473 ml and a little in a small bottle,I give to you for a 20$... I refuse to use them, I don't even know why I got them, I'll stick to water change and manual removal of the algae, and focus on what really is the cause of the algae bloom... But if you want the algae fix let me know, is no use for me....

Perfect! I'm gonna try another total black out first if it fails I'll grab this from u for sure


Thinking about ordering these lights. What u guys think http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2pcs-New165W-Dimmable-LED-Aquarium-Grow-Light-Full-Spectrum-FishTank-Reef-Coral-/191037175723?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7ab3f7ab

[Skimmerking]

If you are running out of room open up the rock work. I would maybe trade off some bigger LPS Frogspawn, Hammer corals so you can open for more flow and jack it up. Just a thought its not going to solve your problem with your lights but getting the flow up might help in the battling of etra nutrients and less a build up of detruis in your tank and help of getting into those hard to reach places to siphon out.

[jason604]

I don't think lights is my only problems cuz my tank was beautiful before under the same light.

[zoapaly]

I had same problem , i did 80% to 100% water change it work for me :D

[Galizio]

Perfect! I'm gonna try another total black out first if it fails I'll grab this from u for sure


Thinking about ordering these lights. What u guys think http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2pcs-New165W-Dimmable-LED-Aquarium-Grow-Light-Full-Spectrum-FishTank-Reef-Coral-/191037175723?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7ab3f7ab


Ok, no problem, let me know, hopefully you can get the algae under control without using algae fix....
Those lights looks good and a good price, I always look at those on eBay, I wonder if they are any good.....

[jason604]

Ok, no problem, let me know, hopefully you can get the algae under control without using algae fix....
Those lights looks good and a good price, I always look at those on eBay, I wonder if they are any good.....

Yea I'm debating between these and the evergrows but u can't beat around $200 for 2 fixtures

[BubblesUp]

New light would likely make it worse. Just sayin' from recent experience. I got a piece with cyano on it early this year and learned that chemiclean did a good job. It also affected the hair algae. I'm also in the later stages of a Kent Tech M treatment currently which, although slow, is showing good signs of cleaning the whole tank. I'll be doing another chemiclean treatment later today.

As a gardener, know your enemy: http://www.reefcleaners.org/nuisance-algae-id-guide has been helpful in figuring out which ones I have and how to deal with them. In retrospect, I should have been more aggressive early-on with the toothbrush. A cheapo submersible battery toothbrush would have been perfect, if there is such a thing. I had the misfortune of being poisoned by a neighbour with an organophosphate and ended up in VGH almost dead. While I was there, my mother decided she was going to feed the seahorses. With her hand tremors and turkey baster overfeeding combined with the death of a softball sized Sea Hare led to a massive hair algae outbreak. Even though I was sent home unable to walk, I immediately did a 50% WC followed by 25% later in the day and another 50% the next day. The deep sand bed held quite a bit of crud. A few months later, the tank is virtually algae free and the macros are doing a good job of stealing what's left of nutrients from the hair. When I installed my new LED, I turned it too high and lost a Monti. The hair algae has also been quite robust. I've been regularly doing the toothbrush scrub and mag-float scrape with great filtration from a canister with UV.

I hope you do get a handle on it. It took me some time but I have won the battle.

[jason604]

Ok my tank is looking more and more like ****. Things are getting worse even after my large water change. LPS hasn't really opened since. Sps and Monti plates are getting more and more pale. My tri-colored nana colony was almost all dead so I fragged whatever branches were unharmed and it was totally dead as well the next day. Birdnest flesh is peeling off in the middle of this pic. Is the rowaphos reactor the cause cuz it pullin nutrients ou too fast? Should I put it offline or remove half of the media.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/A53AE20A-7A54-4AC2-BDE9-6A51A6757DB3_zpsmgw1axak.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/A53AE20A-7A54-4AC2-BDE9-6A51A6757DB3_zpsmgw1axak.jpg.html)

[Slyguy00]

If its getting worse after big water changes, id maybe test the water and salt you are using. Do you use rodi?? Do you check ppm??

[jason604]

If its getting worse after big water changes, id maybe test the water and salt you are using. Do you use rodi?? Do you check ppm??

I use rodi 0ppm water. Newly made salt water is from IO and tests shows it 10kh, 350cal, 1100 mag

[Slyguy00]

I use rodi 0ppm water. Newly made salt water is from IO and tests shows it 10kh, 350cal, 1100 mag

Hmm. A lil low on calcium and magnesium, but nothing that would harm your tank. I don't really think it would be your rowa. The only way to really tell is by testing your phosphates. Did you test before you put your reactor online? If that is one of your concerns I personally don't think it would hurt to turn it off temporally until things start to look better. Or like you said even take half of it out.

[acepumping]

Could be too much rowa. Shocking corals possibly. If too high of phosphates and then you change rowa and suck out phosphates too fast. It can lead to a cyano spike for sure. Cyano will thrive and stretch for food. But will die off once phos under control. But it will take over. New light also can cause it

[jason604]

Phos always tested for 0 before and after but I knew it was there. When I added my rowa I did see a a lot of cyano on my sand. When corals started to go south I changed my rows and added more than I did previously. Dam chemicals!

[Slyguy00]

if your test kit was telling you "0" its lying. and if it actually is "0" then thats probably one reason things arnt doing to well. sps needs small amounts of phosphates to grow and do well

[Ryanerickson]

I'm guessing the rowa has cleaned your water a lot faster then your coral can handle. Adding more made it worse I almost bleached my entire tank 6 months back with to much rowa to fast I was lucky and caught it before anything was damaged.

[acepumping]

Sps need very very little phos. Like minimal. But if phos are 0, still shouldn't affect corals that much
.like 0.01-0.03 are perfect

get a low range phos test kit. Hanna checker

[Slyguy00]

http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/reef-aquarium-discussion/136241-corals-looking-bad-dying-help-please.html

[jason604]

K I just took out more than half of my rowa. Gonna feed fish and corals double to help my sps not die. I think my zoas r done. Too much algae on it n still haven't opened

[Reef Pilot]

Despite some seeming evidence, I am skeptical about low P04 linked to STN and RTN of SPS. I think it is more the rapid change in parameters especially KH that SPS don't like.

I say this, because my SPS grew fastest (and I mean really fast) and had the best colour when my P04 and N03 were the lowest. When I say low, my P04 usually measured zero with my Hanna checker (only occasionally up to .02 to .04). Then last spring due to some issues (mistakes) it went up to 0.10 and my N03 to 30 ppm. My SPS then lost some colour and growth drastically slowed. But then in the summer I had another problem where my KH dropped to 5 (doser plugged), and that was a fatal blow to some of my SPS. It started with some STN and burnt tips on my SPS, and turned to full out RTN on some others. This continued for a while even after correcting my KH and bringing my P04 and N03 back down. But the good news now, a few months later, everything is turning good again, with SPS colour and growth returning. Even with some of my badly injured SPS (which I had cut off the dead parts) I have signs of life and new growth again.

So I think the big thing with SPS is they don't like change. And once they become unhappy, it takes them a while to recover. Get your parameters in check, and keep them stable, and with a bit of time, things should recover. But if you keep tinkering and changing things, you may continue to have problems. Anyway, that's my theory,... FWIW.

[jason604]

Ok so here's my corrective actions I'm going to take in the next few months to try n save my tank. Slowly remove more rowa from my reactor till I only have about half an inch. Replace my blue/white led fixture with 2 full spectrum LED fixtures in about 2-3 weeks when my tank heals a bit. About a month or so after that I'll take out half of my live rock in 1 go and put in half of my newly cycled live rock. Wait another 2-3 weeks and replace the rest of the rocks. Do u guys think this will work?

[Slyguy00]

Why remove rowa slowly? Just take half out and call it good.

[Galizio]

I did not know Rowa could be that much of a b****, always learning something new....

[Reef Pilot]

Well, it's your tank, so do what you like. But raising P04 is certainly not the route I would go.

If low P04 is so bad, then explain to me why ocean water is typically less than .03 ppm and as low as .005. Here is what Randy Holmes-Farley has to say about that. Do you think he is wrong!??
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php#1

[jason604]

Well, it's your tank, so do what you like. But raising P04 is certainly not the route I would go.

If low P04 is so bad, then explain to me why ocean water is typically less than .03 ppm and as low as .005. Here is what Randy Holmes-Farley has to say about that. Do you think he is wrong!??
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php#1

I don't think it's wrong but my problem was stripping water of p04 way too fast that I believe crashed my tank

[Reef Pilot]

I don't think it's wrong but my problem was stripping water of p04 way too fast that I believe crashed my tank
I thought you said your P04 was already zero, so how could you be stripping P04 from that??

Are you sure it was zero? Are you using a Hanna Checker? The color test kits will show zero long before the Hanna. The color kits can show zero while the Hanna will show .1 or higher. Then indeed you have to be careful not to lower too fast. But you still want to lower it, just more slowly.

[jason604]

Bought another sea hare to eat some long hair algae but seems like it's just going for the film algae again! Dammit. Checked my alk and it's at 10.2kh. Never been this high is it because a majority of my sps is dead so it's raising? Is this causing more sps to die cuz it's still happening. Guess I should lower my alk doser

[Skim]

Just wondering what salt do you use?

[jason604]

Just wondering what salt do you use?

Been using instant ocean sea salt since day 1. Talked to my LFS and apparently I'm supposed to be using the instant ocean reef crystals instead

[asylumdown]

Despite some seeming evidence, I am skeptical about low P04 linked to STN and RTN of SPS. I think it is more the rapid change in parameters especially KH that SPS don't like.

I say this, because my SPS grew fastest (and I mean really fast) and had the best colour when my P04 and N03 were the lowest. When I say low, my P04 usually measured zero with my Hanna checker (only occasionally up to .02 to .04). Then last spring due to some issues (mistakes) it went up to 0.10 and my N03 to 30 ppm. My SPS then lost some colour and growth drastically slowed. But then in the summer I had another problem where my KH dropped to 5 (doser plugged), and that was a fatal blow to some of my SPS. It started with some STN and burnt tips on my SPS, and turned to full out RTN on some others. This continued for a while even after correcting my KH and bringing my P04 and N03 back down. But the good news now, a few months later, everything is turning good again, with SPS colour and growth returning. Even with some of my badly injured SPS (which I had cut off the dead parts) I have signs of life and new growth again.

So I think the big thing with SPS is they don't like change. And once they become unhappy, it takes them a while to recover. Get your parameters in check, and keep them stable, and with a bit of time, things should recover. But if you keep tinkering and changing things, you may continue to have problems. Anyway, that's my theory,... FWIW.


+1 to all of this. I have had identical experiences. And once a coral is angry enough you're almost better off tossing it and replacing it for how long it will take to recover

[jason604]

I don't think I have the heart to just throw it away if it's still alive. Too much time, effort and lots of $$ been spent on my so called reef

[jason604]

More and more rtn happening each day. Hammers,frogspawn and such are all still closed. Even my candy came colony looks like it is slowly melting. Is there really nth I can do but watch my whole tank slowly die?

[spit.fire]

IMO slowly lower your kh to around 8.* and do a massive water change

[jason604]

My 3rd sea hare I added on sat is pretty much dead again. Black splitting and is now half it's size.

[spit.fire]

My 3rd sea hare I added on sat is pretty much dead again. Black splitting and is now half it's size.


Ya I'd stop adding seahares, it's probably making the situation worse

[Ram3500]

Best thing you can do now is a water change once a week and run carbon until your parameters are at par . Also you must chill out cuz you can't stop nature she will do what she wants . We have all been through tank crashes and if you haven't you are new to reefing or a god .Yes it sucks Jason but nothing you do is going to stop this crash its going to run its course.Just look at it this way you can always rebuild. Good luck things will turn around .

[spit.fire]

can you post a fts of your tank in its current state?

[jordanc_17]

Ya I'd stop adding seahares, it's probably making the situation worse

Agree 100%. Dying animals will do nothing good for a struggling tank.

[jason604]

Here's my before FTS and after and some closer pics. U can see all the dead sps in there

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/4432A52C-AB93-405A-AF5C-CE5AFCCFB43D_zps49kdb2gp.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/4432A52C-AB93-405A-AF5C-CE5AFCCFB43D_zps49kdb2gp.jpg.html)

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/B5D68F0A-DC4A-41A4-BA19-C900890516D6_zps6tygd10f.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/B5D68F0A-DC4A-41A4-BA19-C900890516D6_zps6tygd10f.jpg.html)

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/57979E81-AB9F-4108-8834-9BD0C90C6A72_zpskjxs52mi.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/57979E81-AB9F-4108-8834-9BD0C90C6A72_zpskjxs52mi.jpg.html)

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/1B95AC66-0F16-47B3-AB66-B0FC3B47DF21_zpsunazdtt7.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/1B95AC66-0F16-47B3-AB66-B0FC3B47DF21_zpsunazdtt7.jpg.html)

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/C0EFFA62-DA8E-42D0-9455-7F44DD31ED20_zpsw3fpezet.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/C0EFFA62-DA8E-42D0-9455-7F44DD31ED20_zpsw3fpezet.jpg.html)

[spit.fire]

id try removing the sandbed or most of it for starters

[Aquattro]

id try removing the sandbed or most of it for starters

Probably not a bad idea. You also don't have the load or growth right now to worry about dosing, I'd turn it off and rely on good water changes every week to get nutrients down and maintain levels. Manually remove what you can for algae and blow off the cyano growing on the corals.

[jason604]

What's wrong with sandbed? Are those corals 100% dead already?

[Aquattro]

Sand is probably holding a lot of nutrients. And ya, I'd say most of those SPS are beyond recovery, unless you got them in a perfect system right now. Anything that has algae growing on it is gone, get rid of it. Anything dying is adding to the nutrient load. Again, get it out.

[jason604]

Sand is probably holding a lot of nutrients. And ya, I'd say most of those SPS are beyond recovery, unless you got them in a perfect system right now. Anything that has algae growing on it is gone, get rid of it. Anything dying is adding to the nutrient load. Again, get it out.

I always vacuum almost all my sand every single water change if that helps. Water from it is normally pretty murky. But I'm sure that's normal. My tank going to look so empty if I take out all my dead sps =(

[Ryanerickson]

Is vacuuming sand bed a good thing? I have never stirred up or vacuumed My 120 gallons sand bed I thought it just stirred up nutrients. I thruthfully don't know if it's good or bad.

[asylumdown]

I think you have to do what I did when I didn't know what was happening to my tank - stop absolutely everything that you're doing/dosing, and start a campaign of massive daily water changes. Change that water as fast as you can make it, up to and including at least 1 100% water change. Do this with a better salt than IO, something that mixes up with alkalinity closer to NSW levels.

Something is wrong in your tank, and by extension your water. You can bang your head against the wall trying to figure out what, but sometimes a 100% reset of the medium your corals are immersed in is the only way to completely eliminate all the unknowns.

I'd continue doing 20-40% daily water changes until the surviving corals stopped declining and started to improve, then I'd switch to once a week water changes, but bring the doser back online and adjust it every day as needed after testing alk, calcium and magnesium. I'd only switch to once a week testing after things definitively stabilized.

This saved my tank when I couldn't figure out what was killing my corals, and it saved it again after my tank nearly died during a renovation.

[jason604]

Came home n found my coral banded shrimp dead!!! Man this is so whack. I'll try to do a lot of water changes

[jordanc_17]

Maybe try testing you water with a buddies set of test kits, or take a few cups to a LFS. Make sure they are getting the same results.

[jason604]

Finally seeing some long hair algae die n peel off my rocks. Also manually pulled out a ton during yesterday's WC. Hopefully my tank an bounce back. Going to do another WC tmr

[jason604]

How long should I leave my doser off for? I'm leaving to vacation in a few days for a week so dunno if I should leave it off till I come back. Going jamaica. Hope to see amazing coral reefs there to take my mind off my ****ty tank.

[Aquattro]

Leave it off until you fix the tank and have things growing again.

[jason604]

Just got back from my short vacation and my tank doesn't look like it has anymore deaths. Some zoas are starting to open up a bit but not all the way. Doser been off for a week and a half nd my kh and ca still stable but mag is kinda low at 1250. Did a water change changed out my carbon but left my rowaphos alone. Should I turn my dower back on yet or wait?