Coral growth issues..

[incept]

I realize this is a question asked over and over yet here I am. I have searched the internet and forums and have yet to come up with any real conclusive answers. Being new to the saltwater world I am learning more and more every day. I set up a 90 gallon display tank with a sump a year ago. Initially set up with a combo of live and dry rock from the LFS. I originally was running 2 250w metal halides for about 10 months before recently switching to a Reef Radience Lumentek 240pro. Water is all RO and I am using Instant Ocean salt. My issue is that my reef tank seems to be unusually slow to grow coral. The mushrooms seem to be okay but even they are not super fast to grow. I do 10% water changes about every 10 days. Looking to get some pointers and advice here on how to get things on line. Even supposedly fast growing Monticap has had zero growth. It actually bleached right out about a week ago after doing nothing for about 6 months. I have 2 powerheads in the tank, my return pump and am running a GFO reactor in the sump. Guessing between the tank and sump about 150lbs of rock. Fish stock consist of,

1- pipefish, doing well
1- royal gramma, doing well
1- watchman goby, doing well
3- blue/green chromis, doing well
2- orange clownfish, going well
2- black clownfish, doing well
2- tuxedo urchins, doing well
1- black long spined urchin, doing well. Actually growing like a weed.
1- feather duster. Doing fine.
1-peppermint shrimp, longest inhabitant of tank
1- cleaner shrimp, doing good

various snails and crabs for CUC

Corals consist of various ones, some I know the names of and others I do not.

5- anemones (started as 2 and one split once and the other twice. Has not split now for a few months)
Torch coral- Been in tank for a while, has grown but not much
Frogspawn coral- Same as torch
Deep elegance- Growing great. Had for about 3 months and has tripled in size
Pokerstar cap- has not grown at all. Actually bleached out and has now come back in color but still not growing
birdsnest- Zero growth in about 5 months. The bottom 1/2" has actually turned black but has not gotten any worse.
Some encrusting coral, the actual head has not grown but the base around the plug has spread quite a bit.
2- Zoa colonies. one colony has developed maybe 4 or 5 new heads in about 3 or four months the other has stayed the purchase size.
2 different mushrooms. A red one which seems to be doing ok. Have a few new heads showing up on the same rock as the original. The other a watermelon mushroom which is in the same situation as the red one. I also have what I think is a Ricordea mushroom but 100% sure. It started great, probably 2 inches in diameter, now it is maybe 3/4".
2- Brain corals. Zero growth
1- sunrise flavia. Zero growth
A small group of purple polyps that I'm not sure what they are. Had them about 6 months. Started with 6 heads, still 6 heads.
Rock with two purple mushrooms - no change in size.
Few other coral I have no idea what they are called which are not doing much of anything. Not dead, just zero growth.

Something in the tank is not right. Things are not dieing. They are just not growing. Algea is not a problem. Only thing I really notice is that I have tiny feather dusters growing all over the glass and overflow. I am having trouble programming the light properly so I slowly started low and worked up the intensity to where it is now over the course of 3 months. I run the day lights about 12-14 hours then switch to the moon lights. Feed flakes daily and brine twice a week with shrimp to the anemones once or twice a month. Everything eats well. I have recently started using marine snow once a week to see what happens. I also bought a product called "Fuel" but have not used it yet.

Water parameters are as follows, as of today 09/22/14 with an API test kit

Temp - 80F
Salinity - 1.025
PH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Calcium - 23 drops = 460
Carbonate hardness - 12 DKH
Phosphate - 0.25

I have no idea what my TDS is, I do not have a meter. I get all my water from either the LFS or the grocery store RO machine until I get my RO machine installed. I don't live in town so it makes it difficult to get my water from the same place all the time. Anyways, if anyone has some pointers or ideas please let me know. I would love to see this thing start to flourish and thrive. I would also love to know the names of all the stuff I have in there, If anyone is feeling up to some ID'ing I could put up some pictures. I have asked the LFS where I got them from and he has no clue what they are called on some accounts. Thanks in advance!!!!

[Abe]

I had the same issue for the longest time and then I bought a doser and things grew dramatically. Water change every 10 days is not enough to keep chemicals stable for coral to grow.

[mikellini]

Hmm, alkalinity is a bit high. But probably not the issue. I would suggest you feed your LPS and anemones, they will grow faster with food. Other corals might benefit from an amino acid or something similar to introduce organics. Ideally you'd like a slightly measurable nitrate (1ppm or so) and a bit lower phosphate as well.

[neoh]

I've kept stable parameters with monthly water changes and no dosing. Once I started adding aquavitro fuel for amino acid supplements, things starting sprouting well.

I'd suggest giving it a shot!

[mikellini]

Oops, I see you do feed a little. I say, feed more! Many have had success feeding LPS pellets...

Also, API test kits are notoriously unreliable. Red Sea makes an OK kit (although the phosphate won't read less than 0.08); I would consider just getting a Hanna checker for alk and phosphate (ULR phosphorus), and get a Red Sea nitrate test kit. Also Red Sea has a 'reef foundation' kit that includes calcium, alkalinity and magnesium. With regular water changes, you probably only need the calcium test (if you get the Hanna checker for alk).

[reefwars]

At 0.25 for Po4 , that's part of your issue ;)

[jordanc_17]

Also you are only getting RO water from the grocery store, not RO/DI water. I would invest in a RO/DI unit, they are cheap.

[AquaAddict]

Hi,

If you also have very little coraline algae, ie, rocks lock a little bit gray, your nitrates are too low. Corals (and coraline algae) do need a very little bit of nitrates to feed on.

Just be careful not to overdo it. Levels of 2 parts per million might a minimum to strive for but watch carefully.

AquaAddict

[Aquattro]

At 0.25 for Po4 , that's part of your issue ;)

Probably most of the issue. Temp is good, other parameters good. RO vs RO/DI is not a factor. NO3 reading 0ppm is likely not an issue, there will be some, just utilized immediately and not detectable. I never had a reading on NO3 and coral growth was crazy.

I'd aim to lower PO4 as a first action.

[incept]

Thanks for the response everyone. From what I gather the Phosphates need to come down and the nitrate come up slightly. Cool. I can do that. Now the next question, I am running a GFO reactor already with the phosphates at the level they are now. Perhaps the media is not working correctly. Any suggestions on what GFO media to try and use?? I think before I go to crazy that is the first thing to achieve. Once the phosphates come down we can drive the nitrates up slightly. To answer the coraline algea. I have next to none. It has never grown in the tank and the little bit I seeded never really did anything. Thanks for the replies, keep em coming!

[reefwars]

Unless your carbon dosing your not nitrogen deficient so don't worry about raising No3

As for gfo any phosphate removing media works , chances are yours is exhausted as it can only hold so much phosphate . The first batch is used in 48hrs if it's high Po4 then each batch afterwards will last longer as long as your inputs don't over weigh the exports

High phosphates inhibit growth in hard corals

A high alkalinity would actually get you better growth in hard corals coupled with a higher ph , but yours is a tad high leaves no wiggle room.

Lastly buy good test kits , your Po4 may not even be accurate if it's not verified ;)

[reefwars]

Api is not good , buy some good test kits then you'll have a better plan . You can't do much on false numbers and Api is hit or miss on what test is worth trusting;)

I use a mix of elos , salifert and Hanna :)

[whatcaneyedo]

How about magnesium? I think IO salt is generally a little low so you likely are as well. Several years back when I started running GFO and boosted Mg to fight hair algae the coraline algae growth really took off in my tank and the general stoney coral growth increased as well.

Aquarium Chemistry: Magnesium In Reef Aquaria
By Randy Holmes-Farley, Ph.D.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/10/chemistry

[Aquattro]

Mag has never been a limiting factor for me using IO. I did start adding it with my new build, but can't say I see any difference.

[incept]

Ok, so plan of action is, new test kits. Have to order some or wait till I hit the big city next. I don't think my LFS has anything else other than the API I already have. Have to call and check. I had no idea the GFO was only good for a few days on the initial go round. The bucket says it good for a couple of months before needing changed out. I will re-start that off tonight. Thanks for the replies everyone. Keep the ideas and knowledge coming. I'm learning as I go and every little bit is sure welcome!

[denny_C]

Ok, so plan of action is, new test kits. Have to order some or wait till I hit the big city next. I don't think my LFS has anything else other than the API I already have. Have to call and check. I had no idea the GFO was only good for a few days on the initial go round. The bucket says it good for a couple of months before needing changed out. I will re-start that off tonight. Thanks for the replies everyone. Keep the ideas and knowledge coming. I'm learning as I go and every little bit is sure welcome!

it can last for weeks and longer so they choose their words carefully and technically they are right , but its dependant on the phosphate level that are current in the tank , if they are high then your media is going to bind a fair amount of phosphates and thus get exhausted pretty fast, if they are low then it will bind some as the levels increse over time and then be exported later.

you can measure the output of the reactor it should be less than the display, if it is more than that , it is exhausted.

at about 300gph turnover through gfo reactor your going to turnover your whole tank a few times a day , so the first initial batch will get used up very quickly.

once numbers get down a batch can last longer depending on your phosphate source.

if you are running it passive then you can be getting more bang for your buck with a fluidized reactor.

the reason why it is hard to become nitrogen deficient is simply the imports of foods and fish waste/ ditrius buildup has to be exported faster then they are added.with smaller systems this can be achieved by water changes too often and too large using good source water ,low biolaods or no bioloads etc. but in an average ran aquarium water changes are weekly/ or longer and the buildup of of nitrates is daily so therefore corals are getting what they need daily as they build up.

with Po4 alot of people use gfo or other binding products and run it 24/7 so you can become phosphorous limited , but the additon of daily foods keeps it in check unless the limits are pushed.

so if you were to add a removal source for nitrates that was daily that can out compete your daily inputs of n , like bacteria can, then you can become nitrogen deficient:)

[iceman86]

I wouldnt trust that api kit. I also have one kicking around and my tank also measures .25 but if I use any other trusted kit, my readings are undetectable and I dont use any gfo either.
For the longest time I just kept changing my gfo cuz it always gave me a false reading until I bought a good test kit.

About coraline algae, not having any doesnt mean much. Ive never had coraline algae grow in my tank and growth has always been awsome. Theres a few amazing tanks online who never get any coraline algae either.

Wait till your test kits come in and go from there.

[Aquattro]

About coraline algae, not having any doesnt mean much.

Agreed. IMO, it's a nuisance algae.

[Myka]

Water parameters are as follows, as of today 09/22/14 with an API test kit

Temp - 80F
Salinity - 1.025
PH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Calcium - 23 drops = 460
Carbonate hardness - 12 DKH
Phosphate - 0.25

I would also suggest you get better test kits. You say that you're using Instant Ocean salt, but you make no mention of dosing calcium, alkalinity, or magnesium into your tank. If you are not dosing, then those number are certainly not accurate. If you aren't dosing, and you prefer to hold off dosing as long as possible, I would suggest you switch to H2Ocean salt as the numbers are better out of the bucket. Instant Ocean is low in calcium and magnesium out of the bucket which isn't a problem if you are dosing, but it is a problem if you want to avoid dosing.

My personal preference for test kits is as follows:

Calcium - Elos
Alkalinity - Elos or Hanna Checker
Magnesium - Salifert
Nitrate - Salifert
Phosphate - Merck or Hanna Checker

What are you using to test specific gravity? Have you checked temperature in the morning before lights go on, and in the afternoon at the end of the peak lighting? I'm wondering what the temperature swing is. I would also double check with a second thermometer. Pick up a TDS meter too - they are only about $20 max. What's holding you back from installing your RO/DI at home?

If reference to the high phosphate reading - IF (and that's a big IF) the number is accurate, then take a look at how much you are feeding the tank. Are you feeding any liquid foods? Do your fish all eat pellets? If so, switch to pellets and just feed frozen foods 1-2 feedings per week. First, confirm the phosphate level though. I don't think you mentioned what kind of skimmer you're using? It's also unusual for the phosphate to be so high and nitrate to be so low, so I'm guessing that one or both of these readings is inaccurate. Is there nuisance algae growing at all? Don't use too much GFO, small amounts changed more frequently works better in my experience, especially in tanks with high phosphate. A common amount I use on client tanks is around 1 tbsp per 30 gallons changed out every 2-3 weeks.

[iceman86]

I would also suggest you get better test kits. You say that you're using Instant Ocean salt, but you make no mention of dosing calcium, alkalinity, or magnesium into your tank. If you are not dosing, then those number are certainly not accurate. If you aren't dosing, and you prefer to hold off dosing as long as possible, I would suggest you switch to H2Ocean salt as the numbers are better out of the bucket. Instant Ocean is low in calcium and magnesium out of the bucket which isn't a problem if you are dosing, but it is a problem if you want to avoid dosing.

My personal preference for test kits is as follows:

Calcium - Elos
Alkalinity - Elos or Hanna Checker
Magnesium - Salifert
Nitrate - Salifert
Phosphate - Merck or Hanna Checker

What are you using to test specific gravity? Have you checked temperature in the morning before lights go on, and in the afternoon at the end of the peak lighting? I'm wondering what the temperature swing is. I would also double check with a second thermometer. Pick up a TDS meter too - they are only about $20 max. What's holding you back from installing your RO/DI at home?

If reference to the high phosphate reading - IF (and that's a big IF) the number is accurate, then take a look at how much you are feeding the tank. Are you feeding any liquid foods? Do your fish all eat pellets? If so, switch to pellets and just feed frozen foods 1-2 feedings per week. First, confirm the phosphate level though. I don't think you mentioned what kind of skimmer you're using? It's also unusual for the phosphate to be so high and nitrate to be so low, so I'm guessing that one or both of these readings is inaccurate. Is there nuisance algae growing at all? Don't use too much GFO, small amounts changed more frequently works better in my experience, especially in tanks with high phosphate. A common amount I use on client tanks is around 1 tbsp per 30 gallons changed out every 2-3 weeks.

Solid advice right here!