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sumpfinfishe
09-28-2002, 08:34 PM
If you want to do some good- rescue the three tangs covered in ick that are for sale at animal house in Abtsfrd. what a shame! :(

naesco
09-28-2002, 10:43 PM
What species and size of tangs are they?

I thought Animal House had a good name.

AJ_77
09-28-2002, 11:01 PM
The number of ailing fish, or tangs alone that we see at the local shops is staggering. There is one small reef shop here that kills an amazing number of fish weekly, perhaps half of each shipment. These animals are consumables, and therefore are replenished weekly for sale. I don't know what the average lifespan is once the fish is sold and taken home, but I'm sure it would be disheartening.

The money required to "rescue" all these would be impressive, and I doubt all our tanks would be sufficient to hold them. :(

AJ

[ 28 September 2002, 19:02: Message edited by: AJ_77 ]

Delphinus
09-28-2002, 11:27 PM
Which shop do you mean Alan? Just curious (send me a PM or an email if you prefer)

I am personally having a really difficult time wrestling with my conscience of late, owing to stores that I have been visiting as part of my "reef addiction window shopping" ritual. As you may or may not know I am currently in the U.S. for an install. I have been visiting a number of shops down here, in one random North American city, and I have to tell you, it has been a real eye-opening experience .... the hobby has a lot of cleaning up its act to do. To be fair, I have found one shop that I felt was worthy of praise. (And I wish I had brought my camera, Alan, to show you and Bob what this one guy was doing with nanos ... maybe I will go buy a cheapy disposable camera, and go back and snap a few shots for you guys). But the other stores. ... man, oh man. :( I would estimate I have seen one in a hundred, kind of statistical number, of reef-related animals that don't have some kind of uphill battle ahead of them for survival. And, sadly enough, the vast majority of those animals, are tangs. Tangs covered in ick, tangs missing fins, or starving with pinched-in-stomachs. They were taken out of the ocean. For what? How sad.

I saw a tank full of ritteris in one store. These were tiny little anemones (anyone who has seen mine, knows that these are not small animals after a time). But it's not the size that alarmed me (although it probably does mean that they were starving). It was the fact that there were no less than TWELVE in a 30 gallon tank, that was otherwise completely empty except for a very large wad of caulerpa. Some of the anemones were so desperate to find the appropriate subtrate that they had attached themselves to the caulerpa and were floating around in the whirlpool of current on this wad of algae. Why the .... did they have to bring in twelve? They're all doomed when you pile them into a single tank like that. It ought to be a crime. I was so depressed after I saw this.

I don't know what the answer is to these kinds of problems. Perhaps, I should have gone to MACNA instead this weekend, and voiced my disgust at the overall state of affairs. I think, perhaps, to insure sustainability of the hobby, and to have a greener footprint, we do need to bring in some of regulation for the hobby. You want to sell wild-caught ocean livestock? Fine, but you have to have some kind of accrediation. And this accreditation would have to be meaningful -- i.e., if it's found that livestock is living in sub-standard conditions, then that accreditation could be revoked. And we could do our part, as hobbyists, to form bona-fide clubs, that we could then go out and educate the public, about only purchasing from these accredited outfits.

I don't know if this is a good idea, or a practical idea. But, I do see it as one potential way that we could reduce the unnecessary carnage out there.

We definitely need to clean up our act somehow.

sumpfinfishe
09-29-2002, 12:26 AM
For Naesco: all three were blue regal tangs, all at about 3" in length, full of ick, and starving as there stomachs were shrunk badly. If I only had a bigger tank-these poor fish were really suffering! :( :eek:

naesco
09-29-2002, 05:03 PM
Animal House will take the loss when the tangs die.
Hopefully they will than learn not to replace them as they will sustain further losses.
It could be that they may not be taking care of their tanks, purchased cheap fish from a questionable supplier or just have some bad luck.

As sad as it is, we must not go out an bail out LFS by purchasing dying fish or coral because all it does is encourage them to go out and buy more of them.

[ 29 September 2002, 20:07: Message edited by: naesco ]

Delphinus
09-29-2002, 08:17 PM
Exactly, Naesco, exactly right. Rescuing the animals means they can bring them in again to try again. It perpetuates the cycle that must stop.

I would like to go a step further. I think we all need to be a bit more brave, and be more vocal about expressing discontent with conditions.

Mak
09-29-2002, 09:40 PM
What SFF says is an understatement. Half or so of there tanks are ICH'ed right out :( . And there were actually 4 3"-3.5" Regal Tangs, 1 large dead Cinnamon Clown and about 4-5 other large Clowns and a number of other Fish covered in Ich :( . Sounds like they need Diver Dan (http://www.reefaholics.com/dwayne/diverdan.htm) in for Operation:Ich.

However there tanks with Ich are marked Not For Sale and I do not believe that this store will be replenishing any of there tanks until this problem is solved ;) .

[ 29 September 2002, 17:49: Message edited by: MAK ]

mikeb
09-29-2002, 11:48 PM
at animal house we do not sell sick fish and will not ever for that matter. Anyone who has ever run a retail business or had a aquarium should know that ich is a common occurence in new systems . That is why we will not and havn't loaded our systems up with tons of fish . We will slowly brake our tanks before doing so . The tangs and any other fish in question are being treated and are not for sale . All of our sytems are completly seperate from one another .There is a total of 14 systems with a total of 28 saltwater tanks all with there own sump ,uv etc. At our stores we do not by cheap livestock of any type.For 14 years i've been a advocate that cheap isn't always better and will be that way at our stores in the future.

Skimmerking
09-30-2002, 12:32 AM
This happened about a 1.5 months ago .i usally dont talk what happenes to me ..

THIS MUST BE STOPPED

Sorry to say I know lots of stores that are out for one thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!MONEY.....
AND THEY KNOW ALL Well it's a load of crap to see this. Thne i don't think that people are making up stories about this fish store, Maybe some one, should think tha ICH in marine live is pretty serious and It doesnt take much to take it under contol. Well I had my run in with the LFS here and Well Let's say I'm not very well liked there and need to say that I'm Not welconed there anymore. It all started with the QT tank that they had there with my buddies 6" puffer ,he was beautiful but he had ick from a bad experience my friend had with his 55 gal tank. :mad: SO i took his puffer to this LFS and told them everythinkg from PH to the ammonia in his tank and the temp to. :mad: So then she she ok and dumped the little guy into the QT tank. and I lost ed it ,I asked here what the
F#$% are you doing you idiot.!! she told me to watch my mouth or i will have to leave. Well me being in the army, tongue.gif And me having a potty mouth when i loose control.. Lets say the manger came over and ask me what in the hell i was doing. I told him that the girl was a idiot ,He grabbed me Well It was the last time that happened.. LOOL ;) I don't liked to be touched by people for no reason.. Anyway i told him you just dont treat the fish like that. he told me like what, throwing the sick fish in the tank. He tells me that its ok it has maracyn in there .I'm sorry but doesnt matter ita shock to the poor little guy .no wonder ed he died. My
my spec's there's
ph 8.05 ph 8.4
temp 81 temp 77
salinity-1.025 1.022
this is what i mena the knowledge to save on salt is stupid
. sorry so when i here of these stores espically on the coast that are a lack of knmowledge it buggs the hell out of me.

LAST AND FINALLY HOW HARD IS IT TO TREAT ICK, WHEN YOU HAE A STERILIZER COME ON PEOPLE>>>>>>

[ 29 September 2002, 20:35: Message edited by: asmodeus ]

Troy F
09-30-2002, 12:37 AM
Hi Mike. I purchased a fish from your store that had ich with the hopes that I could rehabilitate it with a healthy environment and diet. I was wrong :( , I knew better but thought I could overcome this. I asked the girl if you guys ran Cu in your systems and she said, "no it's bad for them," (it was actually a dumb question because there was live rock in the tanks). I think Cu is the only way to run a fish room considering that even the best suppliers are sending you stressed out and often sick fish. Or I guess you could treat each fish in quarantine but that's probably unlikely. Just my 2% of a peso.

mikeb
09-30-2002, 12:54 AM
In are store we are trying to run the systems as naturally as possible and are keeping seperate systems as a preventitive measure .Of course the uv's aren't what we are treating with!sorry about your local store experiance but generalizing that all of of us are in the the same catagory is wrong. If anyone one could tell me of a store that hasn't fought a break out of ich i would like to know.

mikeb
09-30-2002, 01:13 AM
when treating with coppersafe it says it treats a 100 gallon system for one month ,but at what level .A level of copper has to be maintained for 20- 30 days to kill the the disease in question. The problem i have is that the test kits that are available out there only test for non chelated copper . when treating with a product like this how do know what level its at.When the the fish shed there protective slime coat this gives a chance for the medication to work ,but what happens when the level of copper falls below the therapudic level, it comes back with a vengeance. The product in a quarintined environment to treat with would be coppersulfate ,this product can be monitored,but has to be checked daily to be effective.Troy are systems do have rock in them and we are using other treatments in these systems.

Dale D
09-30-2002, 01:39 AM
Sumpfinfishe

Sorry about your bad experience at the store.

As Mike said we have been having an out break of Ich lately. I can tell you it is not because of a lack of care for the animals. I feel personally responsible for the life of every fish that we get in the store.

I have been working in the Chilliwack store for the last couple of weeks, so, I did not see what shape the tangs were in when they arrived.But,I was surprised to see how skinny they were when I arrived at the store on Saturday, and made sure they were fed often through out the day. The fish were treated on Saturday and I left instruction with the other staff to make sure that the fish were fed several times a day.

I have been keeping saltwater and reef tanks for about 10 years. And I will tell you that keeping fish healthy in a tank at home and in a tank in a retail outlet are two very different things.

I think we have a very good set up for our store. There are only 2 tanks on any one system. Each system has a UV and it's own sump. And all the systems are lightly stocked. The system with the tangs in it has about 350 - 450 gallons in it and contains 4 small tangs and 3 small lionfish. So the ich was not caused by over crowding.

We have tried to run the tanks on a more natural system, using live rock in the tanks, the way we recommend our customers run their tanks. Having live rock in the tanks we have had to be carefull about the types and amounts of medication we can use in the tanks. We have avoided running copper in the systems, because of some of the information that is available on it's extended use. I know of other stores that use copper constantly in there systems, although I am sure that they still suffer loses from ich and other things like everyone does. Maybe it is time to look at how our system is run and make some changes. I would hate to remove the rock and start running medication constantly, but,if that is what it takes, then we will do it.

Delphinus
09-30-2002, 11:38 AM
Thank you Dale and Mike, for answering the call to the carpet. I realize that being a retailer is probably another one of those "you can never win" prospects, no matter what you do, people will be unhappy with something.

If the fish are not for sale while they are in a state of recovery, there's not much more I can ask (other than perhaps the obvious, that treatments be in the better interests of the livestock, of course).

Just some food for thought. If the issue is that it is not clear to some that the fish or other livestock are being treated, and that it "looks like" unhealthy livestock might be being sold ... well, obviously, a retail outlet cannot put everything in a back room out of the public eye while treatments or quarantines are performed. In which case, make sure that the tank are clearly labelled "not for sale, under quarantine" or some such.

I know that you guys must care deeply for your livestock. And I know, that no matter how much effort is made, sometimes an order just goes bad. It must be hard on you guys when this happens. But, feeling sad about a bad order doesn't help the animals -- potentially, someone dropped the ball, and we need to look at what can be done to prevent it from happening again. I think more effort needs to be made on the part of retailers, when something like this happens, to examine why it happened, and what lessons learned there may be to avoid similar situations in the future.

I am sure that you guys are already doing this. The fact that you are here, demonstrates to me a commitment to the overall well-being of the hobby, and I applaud this. I just wish more retailers would follow your example here.

In the meantime, good luck containing this outbreak, and best wishes for future orders.

sumpfinfishe
09-30-2002, 12:31 PM
for mike.b and dale.d I'm sorry if I was harsh, I was not attacking your store in general, more just showing my concern for these poor fish.I keep one single healthy juvinile tang in my reef and I get attacked, so now it's someone ele's turn I guess. It was Saturday morning when I came to your store in Abtsfrd and the tangs were for sale that day as I asked the girl with the glasses behind the counter how much they where. I also wanted to say that I have seen a few stores now on both sides of the border and I would say that if your going to move fish through your store at a high volume, then I would think treated tanks are the best way to go! Your tanks setups looked great by the way. I also wanted to mention that in my other post titled "abbottsford" on sept 28, I did say that your store has potential. I would like to take another trip out that way when your flowing smoothly and not just trickeling. Sea you in the future-sumpfinfishe ;) smile.gif

[ 30 September 2002, 08:34: Message edited by: sumpfinfishe ]

Mak
09-30-2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by sumpfinfishe:
for mike.b and dale.d I'm sorry if I was harsh, I was not attacking your store in general, more just showing my concern for these poor fish.I keep one single healthy juvinile tang in my reef and I get attacked, so now it's someone ele's turn I guess. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dude, they have 4 in a 200g or so tank. You had 2 in a 27g... Oh oh wait a minute it has a 33g Footprint... well woopty frickin doo tongue.gif . Let this childish crap drop and every body else will, instead of attacking a new Pet store that had an unfortunate outbreak in there tanks. And just cause your looking for a little revenge :mad: you start a thread on the Net and you give zero details making this look like a bad LPS, and a debate starts up about bad pet stores :confused: :confused: :confused: good 1.

titus
09-30-2002, 08:19 PM
Hello,

Just got a powerpoint presentation from Dr.Kamal Balasooriya who is the best fish pathologist in Sri Lanka. In the slide it talks about different fish diseases and the type of medication, level, and length of treatment. I'll upload it hopefully by tonight.

Titus

sumpfinfishe
09-30-2002, 10:12 PM
Hey Mak :D read the starter thread again, as you will see I was not attacking the store. More so I was pointing out that if the Tang Police want to do some good rather than just stir up #!*? all the time to go help out the tangs or to find out what's going on there. All stores get sick fish, however not all reefers raise sick fish no matter the size of there tanks.Oh and Dude-the tank that they were in was a 33gal not a 200gal! tongue.gif

[ 30 September 2002, 18:16: Message edited by: sumpfinfishe ]

Mak
09-30-2002, 10:47 PM
When I was in yesterday they were in the big one :confused: :confused: :confused: .

mikeb
09-30-2002, 11:10 PM
Just for anyones info the tangs have always been in a system holding 300 gallons of water .

Troy F
09-30-2002, 11:24 PM
SFF, I find the comments about the "Tang Police" "stirring it up", a little bit insulting. I had a feeling you were getting in a "shot" when you started this thread. The "tang police" aren't responsible to save anything at any stores. I believe that they attempt to educate hobbyists based on experience and hopefully an educated aquarist will help this hobby survive. If a conscientious aquarist were to rescue every sick fish that arrives at a fish store he'd need a portion of the ocean to keep them in because I'll tell you; there ain't enough tanks in Canada to hold them all. Depending on what numbers you believe for every fish you keep alive in your tank (or kill) anywhere from one to ten have died. Makes you wonder about your choice of hobbies?

Dale, keep up the good work. I decided to take a peek at a store that has always ran their tanks with Cu and low and behold, the fish were in a sorry state today. Most times they've had fairly healthy fish. Good luck with getting the tanks healthy.

PS: Mike, I saw some pretty sick tangs in a small (~29gal) tank. So I know what SFF is talking about.

[ 30 September 2002, 19:27: Message edited by: Troy F ]

Ryan7
09-30-2002, 11:53 PM
sumpfinfishe,

naesco and delphinus clearly stated that the right thing to do was to leave the fish in the store, and not promote anymore buying of tangs!
So now, it sounds like your not sure who to attack, the tang police, or the fish store.

Your thread is mearly a shot in the dark!!

Ryan7
10-01-2002, 12:06 AM
In addition, I would also like to tell people viewing these posts to disregard anything mentioned about Animal House! This thread turned out to have an unfair and negative impact on the Store. I emplore everyone to make their own judgement on Animal House, as will I.

Mike and Dale, I have never been to your store before, but I would like to come and check it out for myself.

As for Business: ;) maybe this will turn out as a publicity stunt ;) :D :D :D :D
good luck with your fish :D :D

naesco
10-01-2002, 12:08 AM
Well I am happy that the thread was started for two reasons.
1. It gave the Animal House people a chance to explain the situation and correct it and that is good.
2. More importantly it demonstrates that we the reefers have the power to make good things happen out of bad things.
We reefers have the right to demand and ethical and sustainable industy.
We have the right and the responsibility to see to it that our critters get optimum care even before they reach our tangs. sorry tanks.
Now what else have we seen that we don't like?
Do not be afraid to let the LFS know your feelings. Politely of course.

Aquattro
10-01-2002, 12:13 AM
I also have not been able to get out that way, but for the last year I've been on this board, I've heard only great things about these guys. I also have a sick tang right now...doesn't make me a bad guy!!
These guys not only acknowledge having sick fish, they treat them as well. I wish we had a store in Victoria that would do that!!
Keep up the great work guys.

mutabaruka
10-01-2002, 01:35 AM
Well, regardless of SFF's intentions when he started this thread, and regardless of the debate on tangs and tank sizes, I have had very good experiences at both the Animal House stores. The staff have been informative and actually knew what they were talking about. I have never seen anything that would indicate the fish lived in anything but the best environment they could be provided in an LFS. I think most people are intelligent enough to see for themselves, and not jump to unfounded conclusions.