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View Full Version : Flame angel... I give up...


burtonboi
09-14-2014, 05:43 AM
I love these guys. Can't seem to keep any of them! :(

First one I had for 2 months and sudden death.

Second one I had for about 2 weeks and same thing.

Both eating fine and completely active water params all perfect...

So frustrating. What am I doing wrong? Anyone have luck in Calgary with these guys??


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RDNanoGuy
09-14-2014, 07:10 AM
It might help if you tell us the other occupants in the tank. Alot of times fish can be bullied to death you just don't see it happening.

burtonboi
09-14-2014, 07:17 AM
I have a bunch of tangs powder brown, regal, yellow and purple. Mandarin and scooter dragonette, 7 Chromis, 4 bengai 2 pyjama striped, yellow diamond and red wheeler gobies, 6 line wrasse, pair of true percs, two firefish, royal gramma, magnificent foxface and coral beauty angel. Both times the coral beauty was added the same time


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hfp75
09-14-2014, 05:58 PM
Your bio load is huge... Hope your tank is big....

burtonboi
09-14-2014, 06:25 PM
150 gal 15% water change weekly


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Ryanerickson
09-14-2014, 07:13 PM
Holy crap like 30 fish bit much for a 150 in my opinion

burtonboi
09-14-2014, 07:31 PM
Most of the fish are size small.


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whatcaneyedo
09-14-2014, 07:39 PM
I wouldn't dream of putting that many together in a medium size tank. I think you found your problem.

reefwars
09-14-2014, 07:46 PM
Holy crap like 30 fish bit much for a 150 in my opinion

Why do you say that , going by gallons doesn't say much I can turn a 150g tank into 144" or 120" or 96" long.....so it a size thing or water capacity?

Can a fish differ between length and width? Is 72 x 36 x 30 any much better than 120 x 24 x 20 or a 192 x 20 x 16?


So if it's water quality then wouldn't large equipment , large sump or even a little science help keep water clean?

I never did understand how many can guess how many fish go in a tank just based on gallons alone.

Even if you go by dimensions what are the small differences , are they big or is it a feel better kind of application?

Misses.ReefWars
09-14-2014, 07:54 PM
I wouldn't dream of putting that many together in a medium size tank. I think you found your problem.

But are we basing the number of fish to dimension size or gallons ?

Seems to me a 24 x 24 x 72 is not as good as a 72 x 24 x 24 or is it?

mikellini
09-14-2014, 08:32 PM
There comes a point where too much is too much. This is waaay past that point IMO. It's not like we're discussing adding one or two large tangs here; that stocking list is cramped no matter what the dimensions are, and would be heavy stocking in a 240 IMO

Also, if a coral beauty was added at the same time as the flame angel both times, how is it that you only have one? Did you remove and then re-add the same one?

reefwars
09-14-2014, 10:21 PM
There comes a point where too much is too much. This is waaay past that point IMO. It's not like we're discussing adding one or two large tangs here; that stocking list is cramped no matter what the dimensions are, and would be heavy stocking in a 240 IMO

Also, if a coral beauty was added at the same time as the flame angel both times, how is it that you only have one? Did you remove and then re-add the same one?

No we are discussing adding a flame angel which is a fairly small fish . I'm not saying he's under stocked but I'm just curious how people base this off the
Only info which given was a gallon amount only.

So Based on what exactly though ?

So it comes down to gallons in your opinion right? 150 , 240 , 500 ...just numbers really and has no real interest into the fishes actual requirements do they?

Is the equivalent of 30 x 1" tangs any better or worse than 3 x 10" tangs

I get the moral part of adding fish to an aquarium ,even in general , but how do you base it off of gallons alone and what variables do the fish themselves offer?

reefwars
09-14-2014, 10:27 PM
I guess it's all just personal opinion which is what i hd thought as no one has stated why one is more optimal then the other?

So is one persons personal opinion something we can make a user guideline off?

I doubt there is no real answer to this but only a person to person opion which I bet varies.

If I were to make a public pole asking what is better for a group of 10 x 4" tangs

What option do you think would win

72 x 72 x 20

Or a

144 x 30 x 20

Clearly e first one has more volume but 12 ft from the bobby point of view is a lot of swimming room and surely we all know from experience that 30" is great width...lots of good tanks out there with 20" in heit.

But by gallons the first is more , a lot more lol

reefwars
09-14-2014, 10:33 PM
How about coral placement , liverock etc.

Is an empty 150g any better than one filled with rocks? If so how much worse is one that is only partially filled with rocks

I think a dimensions of tank , equipment rating and individual fish assessment is a much better way to determine if you have too many fish or not , not just gallon numbers which have little information unless we're dealing in ppm.

Is a circle any better than a triangle or a deep cube to a rectangle?

I also assume we're only talking about display size correct not total volume , so if a fish had a tunnel to. Swim to another tank do we count it s two 150g and treat as individuals or do we count it as 300g and treat as a 300g?

intarsiabox
09-14-2014, 10:58 PM
It's not uncommon for the stresses of capture and shipment to kill a fish within the first couple weeks. If you can quarantine your new fish alone for 4 weeks in a hypo salinity environment it will be a great way to get the fish in tip top shape before adding him to a busy tank. Just remember to drip acclimate him over a couple hours before adding him to the DT. As for the fish that died after 2 months it's hard to say.

mikellini
09-14-2014, 11:01 PM
I was basing my thoughts on the idea of water volume, not dimensions. I don't care how you stretch it, that's not enough gallons for the stock list

burtonboi
09-15-2014, 03:00 AM
There comes a point where too much is too much. This is waaay past that point IMO. It's not like we're discussing adding one or two large tangs here; that stocking list is cramped no matter what the dimensions are, and would be heavy stocking in a 240 IMO

Also, if a coral beauty was added at the same time as the flame angel both times, how is it that you only have one? Did you remove and then re-add the same one?


Yes I removed the first one that nipped my corals. Then I added the second one along with the second flame.


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reefwars
09-15-2014, 03:52 AM
I was basing my thoughts on the idea of water volume, not dimensions. I don't care how you stretch it, that's not enough gallons for the stock list



Yes I get that , but still it's an opinion that must have been based off something .....what was that something?

So how is it not enough gallons , what is enough gallons .... your obviously implying that gallons alone is enough to stack a list off of correct?


So what number is a good number for these fish and I'll make up a dimension , I'm sure I can squeeze it small enough that you would consider the dimensions to outweighs The gallons at some point right;)

For example a tank that is only 6" x 6" but is 500 ft long is this ample for a lot of fish or no?

That's about 935g but the poor fish only have 6" of space to swim in , but gallons wise I should be able to keep a small shark or ray.


I'm not saying there's room for extra fish or he's under stocked but like the rest of you I have very little info and at the end of the day gallons alone are a poor way to base an amount of fish off.

If we set up fifteen tanks and gave them to fifteen people and asked each to stock as many fish as they felt was fair and comfortable for the fish....do you think most would have the same numbers and sizes?

While I'm sure a lot will be similar they all will differ in how each person sees an aquarium , space and animals requirements and they will base their decision on that or at least let it be a factor in their decision.

So it's pure personal preference on how many fish you can have in a tank .

Does an Achilles tang deserve 120" of length or would he prefer a cube that has twice the amount of gallons then the 10ft of tank ?

Aquattro
09-15-2014, 04:10 AM
Does an Achilles tang deserve 120" of length or would he prefer a cube that has twice the amount of gallons then the 10ft of tank ?

Gonna go with the 10' for that guy :)

For me, it's simple. I read a list, I think nothing of it, or I do think something of it. This list, first thought was "wow, that's a lot of fish". So in this case, I think it's overstocked. Just because my mind made it up.

So, if anyone ever wonders if they have too many fish, PM me a list with tank size, and I'll see how my brain reacts. This is a FREE service :)

I don't need dimensions or size of fish or anything tangible, just a list and gallons. It's a gift I have, and I'm willing to share it.

reefwars
09-15-2014, 04:19 AM
But that's just it:)

No one can tell you if your overstocked with any merit behind it If its based off of their personal opinion lol and if they did wouldn't you want to know what you were missing when you first added them? So basically I take some ones word that they say I'm overstocked...with no science behind the claims other than that's not enough gallons .

I don't know about anyone else but I'm not about to sell half my fish based on someone's moral feelings lol

I think I'm overstocked actually I'm sure of it lol ,my list isn't as big as his but does thAt really matter...overstocked is overstocked or is there a waaaay overstocked?

His tang is maybe 3" while mine are 8" but he has twice as many so where am I now in the math lol



I know there's no real answer but we can't really push our ideas of a stocked tank or overstocked tank based purely on personal preference can we , This is kinda like the bioload , we tell people their bioload is high but what is that really lol we tell people they are overstocked but what makes a tank overstocked in regards to gallons.....is it volume? Do fish even know what volume is ....


Only you can prevent forest fires....errr uh I mean decide what right for your tank:) based off e info you yourself have calculated ;)

Aquattro
09-15-2014, 04:22 AM
My "gift" has merit. It works 100% of the time. You're just looking at it wrong :)

reefwars
09-15-2014, 04:31 AM
My "gift" has merit. It works 100% of the time. You're just looking at it wrong :)

Well shoot if it works 100% of the time then why didn't you say so lol



I know where everyone is coming from that posted their concerns , I do , but I also have to give people advice on how many fish can they have almost dialy , it's actually a very common question that has a not so easy answer.


The answer seems to vary every time I say it lol


Personally I think a combination of things like size of tank in dimensions , size of fish , fish eating and swimming habits , fish community habits as well the other facts that no one has mentioned like equipment , rock layout has to play in the whole scheme of things.

Aquattro
09-15-2014, 04:35 AM
Ya, being serious for just a moment, yes, you're right. A tang needs a 6' tank. Except what if that tank is full of rock. Then an empty 4' tank is better. Right? Maybe, maybe not.

If you can maintain water quality, fish don't get sick from stress, don't kill each other fighting, and there's room for all of them to be fully submerged, then you're good.
Unless you're not. It depends.

Regardless of the state of this particular tank's stocking, I don't think it has any bearing on the fish dying. I'd have to double check with my brain tho, it may disagree.

reefwars
09-15-2014, 04:37 AM
So what do you guys thnk , am I overstocked then ?

200g


1 Large yellow tang -6-8"
2 Large bristle tooth tang(x2) both at 6"
1 Large powder brown tang -5"
1 Med convict tang /3"
1 Large gold rimmed tang -4"
3 clownfish all about 2-3"
3 cardinals -all about 3-4"
4 neon gobies all about 3"
1 citron goby -2"


17 fish in total most are large and getting much bigger as the years go by. My system is healthy as. System is getting , fish are fat and everyone gets along.

But forget the facts lets talk gallons , am I overstocked?

jorjef
09-15-2014, 04:41 AM
If there is a lot of fish scraping it out.... Overstocked....If a fish can hardly turn around... Oversized. If your skimmer can't keep up for the amount of fish you have..... Call it what ever you want. I know when my house gets overstocked with people I start to chase them out:lol:

Aquattro
09-15-2014, 04:41 AM
Nope, you're good. Carry on. (I know, amazing, right??)

reefwars
09-15-2014, 04:42 AM
We all choose what we believe is best for our tank , and while advice from others is welcome , I'm always quick to ask a simple question....which is

why?

I also would like to note that opinions change , today we all feel overstocked tomorrow we feel differently. Again feelings play a huge role in the deciding factor not so much the science it's self:)

reefwars
09-15-2014, 04:43 AM
Sweet well shoot I'm gonna go buy me a fish:)

Aquattro
09-15-2014, 04:46 AM
Again feelings play a huge role in the deciding factor not so much the science it's self:)

I have no feelings, it's pure science of my brain. I'll admit I have no clue how it works, but it does. Good enough for me, and should be good enough for everyone else.

reefwars
09-15-2014, 04:47 AM
You must be overstocked lol

Aquattro
09-15-2014, 04:50 AM
You must be overstocked lol

I try to do extra water changes to compensate..

reefwars
09-15-2014, 05:08 AM
That's actually another good point.

We both have 150g tanks , same dimensions even and same fish....if it was possible same every little thing.....

I do %100 water changes and you do %10 water changes

Do I get to keep more fish ?

Aquattro
09-15-2014, 05:11 AM
That's actually another good point.

We both have 150g tanks , same dimensions even and same fish....if it was possible same every little thing.....

I do %100 water changes and you do %10 water changes

Do I get to keep more fish ?

Yes. With this consideration. While both tanks appear to be the same, I'm certain that if you could quantify it, the tank with more clean water has healthier fish, which makes them more resistant to stress related problems.

mikellini
09-15-2014, 05:24 AM
That's actually another good point.

We both have 150g tanks , same dimensions even and same fish....if it was possible same every little thing.....

I do %100 water changes and you do %10 water changes

Do I get to keep more fish ?

Theoretically you could, but in practice, the fish would be flopping around on the bottom of the tank every time you drained 100% of the water, so now I'm not sure...

reefwars
09-15-2014, 05:27 AM
Theoretically you could, but in practice, the fish would be flopping around on the bottom of the tank every time you drained 100% of the water, so now I'm not sure...

Haha true true that's prob not a good idea lol

Aquattro
09-15-2014, 05:29 AM
Haha true true that's prob not a good idea lol

Done it a few times, fish seem to manage ok. They're flat, so it's not a biggie :)

burtonboi
09-15-2014, 05:37 AM
This is way too funny now. Thanks for "answering" my question guys.

Aquattro
09-15-2014, 05:47 AM
This is way too funny now. Thanks for "answering" my question guys.

Hate when this happens :) As I said earlier, IMO the fish didn't die due to stocking, I'd probably just say bad luck.

Ryanerickson
09-15-2014, 05:47 AM
I guess where I'm coming from is my experience with 2 current tanks I had 5 tangs in my 125 ish tank 6 feet by 18" by 28" not sure of exact size plus 10ish small fish All fish super happy for 2-3 years year 4-5 tangs start fighting during that time I started up a 117 gallon frag tank 6 feet long 12" deep split up tangs they still were not super happy in the end my 6" red sailfin stressed out my Achilles I had for over 3 years stopped eating got ich died 100% all my fault I learned from it. I hate getting into arguments about amounts of fish in tanks there is no right answer I'm sure in reality 95% of tanks are small but work in the big picture tangs grow if you keep them healthy they outgrow most tanks. Currently I have the rs sailfin and chevron in display tank doing good together ,frag tank has naso and 5 year old emporer angel reel safe so far.

burtonboi
09-15-2014, 06:01 AM
Hate when this happens :) As I said earlier, IMO the fish didn't die due to stocking, I'd probably just say bad luck.


Yeah I guess so. No more flame angels for me. Many of my fish I've had for over 2 years. 5 of them I've had for over 5 years. Most of the remainder are close to a year now.


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