Looking for some input/help; my tank is suffering a big GHA & Cyano issue

[gregzz4]

I’ve been battling GHA since July 2014
I treated for Cyano last year
All was good until I messed with things …

I’d read about having balanced PO4 and NO3, and my NO3 was zero
Sometime back in Spring I tried to raise my NO3, as my corals were looking a bit lackluster. Note to self; don’t screw with the balance
Stupid me, I tried to raise my NO3 by feeding more. I know, you can’t raise NO3 by feedings … Lesson learned

I run Carbon and GFO
I change each monthly on a staggered schedule
Since this has happened, I've been changing the GFO weekly

The extra feedings didn’t go well. I’ve since had this ongoing issue with GHA, and it now turns out that what’s been killing all my snails is Cyano hiding in the algae
And on top of things I have to remove dead snails to stop the cycle (some poor buggers were brand new)

I’ve been changing my GFO weekly @ 150mls (instead of 225mls/month)
I’ve cut back the fishies daily pellets from 3 to 2 feedings for lunch, and just tonight cut it back again. They will only get one dose of pellets for now
They get one cube of frozen/night. It’s my mix that’s all rinsed and vitie blended.
I can’t cut the cube at night due to non-pellet eaters, but I may consider cutting a cube in half

My PO4 @ last test with my Hanna Digital was 0.02
With their variance, this could be either 0.06 or 0.008

I’ve been using PhosBuster Pro and haven’t seen a change yet with the GHA
I’ll continue to use it while I’m plucking what I can

Tonight, after 3 days of the PhosBuster stuff, I did a 15% WC
Normally I do 10%/week

I’ve been removing the GHA in clumps, big clumps, and I’ve had to regularly scrub some of my zoas as they are being overwhelmed by slime/algae

I don’t want to do a system reset at this point as my tank is finally starting to mature and some of my SPS are looking happy
It’s just past the 2-year mark

I've been thinking about changing my lighting schedule to reflect a MH unit
Instead of having my bulbs transition all day, I'm thinking about having a full-on light schedule during the afternoon to reflect a MH setup, and have my other T5s tuned lower to compensate for the difference

Any input is greatly appreciated

[H2o2]

I had that once and probably a long shot but my carbon was laced with iron put a magnet on it to see if it sticks or 1 of your magnets in 1 of your impellers is broken

[reefwars]

If your changing gfo weekly and your still getting po4 then that's an issue , dying snails will elevate that , what is No3?

You sure it's gha?

[iceman86]

Is on your rocks or just the sandbed?

[Slyguy00]

If it were me, I would just do a blackout and be done with it. If i recall you have been dealing with this for awhile now. Black it out for 3 days and your problem will be solved. Iv had incredible success with this. Good luck on the algae

[Aquattro]

I'd do some real water changes as well. Currently I'm doing 50% every 10 days and that's working well, nutrients getting lower all the time.

[reefwars]

Yeah water changes in small amounts are a poor way to remove ongoing nutrients , the little you removed is back before the next change.

[Masonjames]

What's your debris removal like? If the funk ain't getting out then something is going to be more then happy to make use of it.
A heavy cuc count can trick a person into thinking they are doing good keeping things cleaned up and pruned, but if the junk they process isn't in turn being processed/removed, then they just create a nice little nutrient cycle for you. There great at what they do but only if we are following behind them ensuring what they process gets processed. If there just free to leave there nicely formed pellets of nutrients on the sand, in the rocks, any nook and cranny then they are working far more against you then for you. And at 2 year mark it sounds as though you may have been starting to stockpile nutrients, and now stocks are full and it's giving back.

I wouldn't even bother checking tank po4 levels for now. Just keep checking the output from your gfo and change when you see the output level rise. Gha is hard to battle with gfo alone. It can get access to available nutrients pretty quickly. The gfo picks up any that slipped past not the other way around. So staying ontop of manual removal is important. A blackout could work. Never tried but read lots of success stories. Do you have any macro? A simple ats could be employed for time being to give the gha a place to grow of you choosing and in addition allowing simpler removal. Non the less, if the exports are not on par with the inputs then it's a continual wall your up against. Re examining your debris removal methods and practices would be my first coarse of action. A cube of frozen is adding allot of additional nutrients you don't need right now. Cut it back to half, and maybe every other day?

[jason604]

im also battling pretty bad GHA. Gfo not rly helping all that much for me but i did notice them growing much slower when i manually remove them. About the 3 days blackout is it just turning off all the tank lights or do i have to cover my tank to make it totally dark?

[Slyguy00]

100% darkness. I covered my display and my sump for 3 days. Worked like a charm.

[jason604]

Will sps lose color? A majority of my sps lost color because I moved my lights about 4 inches higher for almost a week.

[Ryanerickson]

I had a algae outbreak at the beginning of summer gha and others all at once it took about 1.5 kg of rowa and a 3 day black out. Jason 3-4 weeks of rowa will not get rid of it I actually found it got a bit worse at first. I have been changing out 300grams plus every 2 weeks of rowa. Finally 3 months later it's 98% gone.

[iceman86]

Will sps lose color? A majority of my sps lost color because I moved my lights about 4 inches higher for almost a week.

Yes some might fade or even brown a bit but it will come back pretty quick.

When I transferred tanks I ran into some problems and had my corals (90%sps) in the holding bin without light for 7 days. Nothing died but some faded, after a few weeks it all came back to where it was.

[mikellini]

Yes some might fade or even brown a bit but it will come back pretty quick.

When I transferred tanks I ran into some problems and had my corals (90%sps) in the holding bin without light for 7 days. Nothing died but some faded, after a few weeks it all came back to where it was.

You can kill your corals much faster with too much light than with too little. I've done 3 dark days at a time, twice a month before; my tank never looked better. Don't know why I stopped, actually. I think it was that I didn't like not seeing the tank for 3 days. Maybe 2 would have been enough...

[Slyguy00]

You can kill your corals much faster with too much light than with too little. I've done 3 dark days at a time, twice a month before; my tank never looked better. Don't know why I stopped, actually. I think it was that I didn't like not seeing the tank for 3 days. Maybe 2 would have been enough...

+1!

[chi]

Just use tinfoil. Wrap it around the whole tank and see what happens. I'm battling a bunch of algae right now as well. As in four different ones. I am using black out and will add chaeto after to deal with the excess nutrients.

[jason604]

K I will try the blackout. Can fish still catch food in the total darkness?

[gregzz4]

Thanks for the many responses everyone

what is No3? You sure it's gha?
Zero last month, but it looks like I'll have to buy a new kit as the colors look wrong now

Is on your rocks or just the sandbed?
All GHA is on the rocks with some on the props and overflow. Cyano on both

What's your debris removal like?
Not bad as far as I can tell. I have 3 MP10wES on 92%
I'll have to step up my housekeeping methods for awhile. I used to clean my sandbed but stopped when the diatoms wouldn't go away. Fat lot of good that did me

I forgot to mention something I found before starting this thread. And this issue for sure was not helping me;
My RO was showing 2 TDS and a Hanna test showed 0.002 in my storage drum
I cleaned the RO out and replaced the Membrane

I agree with needing to step up my WC amounts

[gregzz4]

Too late to edit

My RO PO4 test last week was 0.02
Today it's 0.01, but who knows what it really is with an accuracy of +/-.04

[gregzz4]

Bought a new NO2/NO3 kit tonight and will check tomorrow

Did a 3-day blackout over the weekend. Nothing suffered much and the GHA backed off enough for me to get a bit of a grip on it. Plus the cyano and diatoms have subsided ... for now

Tonight I siphoned/scrubbed off as much GHA as I could and then added a Sea Hare
The little Bunny is going to town like there's no tomorrow ... each section it passes over is scoured right down to the LR :surprise:

So, now all I have to do is figure out where this problem came from in the first place .... :redface:

[michika]

Are your rocks old? I experienced a time awhile ago where my rocks were leeching nutrients that fed a massive GHA outbreak.

[gregzz4]

Are your rocks old? I experienced a time awhile ago where my rocks were leeching nutrients that fed a massive GHA outbreak.
My LR is maybe 2-1/2 years old and I fully cured it before I started this tank
I'm pretty sure my issue is not enough turkey basting

[gregzz4]

what is No3?
Hey Denny

Finally got a new test kit
NO2 is 0, NO3 is waaaayyy less than 2 and probably closer to less than 1

NH3 is 0

PO4 is now 0.02-0.01

[WarDog]

Yikes... sorry to hear it's causing this much trouble.

[gregzz4]

Yikes... sorry to hear it's causing this much trouble.
Bah, I'm still in (for now) :wink: but with all of life's other fun I'll admit I've been a tad stressed lately

[reefwars]

Ok that's not bad , fwiw rocks can only absorb and leach Po4 and not nitrates , nitrates are not bound to anything so if your rocks have been in your system for a long time and your running a P04 binding media then it's only a matter of time before they would stop its not a problem you would have for. Year unless you kept adding phosphates and not exporting them.

While I know the numbers are low the algae is obviously getting enough to get by ,you don't dose iron do you?

I had issues with bryopsis and low nutrients my po4 was always bear zero because of gfo but my nitrates were always above zero , still low but still there none the less.

While large water changes work its time consuming and expensive which is what i use to do , I now dose vinegar and no more bryopsis as well no more nitrates either. I have also not had to run gfo in a fair bit of time as now the bacteria have been able to keep it down as well.


Water changes are still important for other reasons but are a poor way of removing nutrients.....1 step forward...2 steps backwards.
Maybe set up a ats, denitrator or start carbon dosing to help keep down the lower amounts?

The worse part about our kits are ....they suck. Not s much at high numbers as we care less how accurate they are when things are Hugh but on the low side the numbers really aren't all that accurate.

So a little help from our oldest friends goes a long way;)


With gha it's usually very easy to fix but blackouts , water changes, cutting back on feelings etc are all things that help overnight but not long term. As time goes by things find there way back to where they were so you need a long term plan.

Import vs export

[Reef Pilot]

MB7 regime if you never want to see cyano again. And has many other benefits, too. Have not seen cyano for several years now since I started using it. I did have other issues with my tanks this summer (on the mend now) but no cyano.

[gregzz4]

you don't dose iron do you?
Not intentionally, but ever since I started using this newest GFO from Concept my green corals have become super-green, so I suspect there's some getting in that way

Thanks for the other info Denny
I'm hoping that once the algae is removed I'll be able to baste the crap out of the LR

[gregzz4]

MB7 regime if you never want to see cyano again
I'm hoping to get a grip on this without incurring another recurring cost

[Reef Pilot]

I'm hoping to get a grip on this without incurring another recurring cost
How much per year do you think MB7 would cost?

Costs me less than $20/year for a 230g system. Pretty cheap insurance for a guaranteed preventative, if you do it right. Plus as I said, has many other benefits in your tank. Keeps the water very clear, esp if applied after some cleaning, etc where you might get some cloudiness.

[reefwars]

How much per year do you think MB7 would cost?

Costs me less than $20/year for a 230g system. Pretty cheap insurance for a guaranteed preventative, if you do it right. Plus as I said, has many other benefits in your tank. Keeps the water very clear, esp if applied after some cleaning, etc where you might get some cloudiness.

ummmm.

it costs me nothing a year , and ive also never had it in years...go figure i guess i didnt need it or my tank is doomed to have it soon?

so your saying mb7 is a guaranteed cure for cyano and that anyone who does it right will not have cyano? no one that uses it " correctly" will have cyano right?

how many system have you tried this on to verify it works all the time every time if applied right?

since its such a guarantee i guess i shouldnt be able to find any people who it didnt work for , or maybe all those people arnt doing it right and maybe brightwell dont know what they are talking about in the recommended doses?

i find that really, really hard to believe ,sorry but i do. even brightwell them selves dont say its a guarantee, why do you think that is?

i get that in your experience it works but to say guaranteed preventative is kind of pushing it a bit dont ya think to the point where the next person who reads this thinks ...hey its guaranteed to work lol

im very skeptical , i get how it HELPS keep cyano away but again thats no mystery , but its also not a guarantee.

how does it differ from any other bacteria in a bottle?

[Reef Pilot]

Hey, I'm just saying what has worked for me. May be other ways to beat it, for sure. But it grieves me a bit, when I see here so many people struggling with it, and just trying to help.

The reason I am so convinced is from my direct experience. When I first started using MB7, I did see cyano try to come back a couple times. But when I then adjusted my dosage, was always able to beat it back. After the MB7 bacteria was fully established, the cyano has never come back for me, even when I had other problems with P04 and N03 getting out of hand again.

I have also seen MB7 here used very incorrectly (won't name names, but you probably know who I am talking about). Like anything in reefing, you have to know what you are doing, and go slowly. And don't over think it.

I also did a lot of research on RC, where I first learned how to use it, and why it didn't work for some people. Unfortunately, all reefers are not always the most patient or the best at understanding and following instructions.

Also, as a reminder, MB7 is a preventative, not a cure. You first have to get rid of it with Chemiclean. The you start your MB7 regime.

[reefwars]

its the way you say it , guaranteed....i take that as it has to work.


ok so why doesnt brightwell say its a guaranteed preventative? do you have inside info they do not? seems like if it was directed at cyano then cyano would be its main selling feature would it not? i think cyano is a serious enough a problem for just about any reefer that if it were guaranteed then it would be plastered all over the net......

from brightwell:


"The concentration of dissolved and particulate organic materials in any aquatic environment can have a significant impact on the overall appearance of, as well as the health of organisms residing within, that system. Relatively low-nutrient environments are characterized by high water clarity, lack of unpleasant odors, and absence of microalgae and cyanobacteria; this is collectively a result of the lack of nitrogen-, phosphorus-, and carbon-based waste available. Aquaria that are relatively rich in available nutrients have characteristics opposite to the afore mentioned, and are typically not desirable because of the resultant appearance of the system and the difficulty of maintaining healthy aquarium inhabitants.

Brightwell Aquatics MicrōBacter7 is a selective complex of extremely effective microbes and enzymes that rapidly reduces the concentrations of organic nitrogen, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, and organic carbon in all marine and freshwater ecosystems, leading to greatly improved water quality; better water quality typically leads to healthier aquarium inhabitants. MicrōBacter7 does not require refrigeration, however storage in a cool, shaded area will prolong the activity, and maximize the shelf-life, of the product."


never seen the word guaranteed in that paragraph but maybe i missed it lol all they say is kinda the obvious about bacteria and its needs lol


lots of good threads on mb7 , what it does and what it doesnt do. youll find lots of people ( experienced none the less) do not have the same results. surely these people cant all be doing it wrong, what did you do that was so different?


it in fact doesnt work all the time, id like to believe that all these people just are doing it wrong but all the chemist on RC do not seem to think it is necessary , or works all the time , anecdotally it works for some but not all so if i dont need to use it why would i pay for it? how do i know that just regualar carbon dosing , denitrators, gfo/gac, skimming , water changes , ats other bottled bacterias etc. are not equally as good, better , worse or even cheaper to run? how do i know if i need it or not?


i will say seems like a great product , i know people who use it without harm so i dont think adding it will cause any great harm but i also dont think its any better a preventative then the above mentioned , is it?

if so why?

[reefwars]

"Brightwell Aquatics MicrōBacter7 is a selective complex of extremely effective microbes and enzymes that rapidly reduces the concentrations of organic nitrogen, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, and organic carbon in all marine and freshwater ecosystems, leading to greatly improved water quality; better water quality typically leads to healthier aquarium inhabitants."


this above can be pretty much said about most bacteria and the job they do , how do i know that prodibio , zeobak or organic carbon dosing doesnt do the same?

i trust brightwell , but do i really know whats being added?

tests on this product seemed to show the bacteria was alive in heavy numbers but didnt show what type, types or foods they consume.

[reefwars]

bottled bacteria in general is very debated on whether or not its necessary or not necessary to add. we simply dont have the data , resources or time yet.

[Reef Pilot]

Well, you can be hung up on my use of the word guaranteed, if you like. I said that because I have used it in person, and have seen how it works. And all the cases I have read about where it didn't work, involved incorrect usage, or at least lacked clear evidence of correct usage. And yes, that included chemists. The good news, is that many others that did use it correctly were also successful with preventing cyano.

People are free to believe what they want and manage their reefs the way they want. That's the fun of this hobby. But as you know, there are many "experts" here on these forums, that love to quote and pass on 3rd hand information. Me,... I put a lot more stock into direct experience, and those that can show me what their tanks actually look like.

[reefwars]

People are free to believe what they want and manage their reefs the way they want. That's the fun of this hobby. But as you know, there are many "experts" here on these forums, that love to quote and pass on 3rd hand information. Me,... I put a lot more stock into direct experience, and those that can show me what their tanks actually look like.

agreed , it goes to show that you cant always take someones personal experience as solid fact but only as their personal experience ;)

[Reef Pilot]

agreed , it goes to show that you cant always take someones personal experience as solid fact but only as their personal experience ;)
Can't argue with that...:smile:

[mikellini]

Well, you can be hung up on my use of the word guaranteed, if you like. I said that because I have used it in person, and have seen how it works. And all the cases I have read about where it didn't work, involved incorrect usage, or at least lacked clear evidence of correct usage. And yes, that included chemists. The good news, is that many others that did use it correctly were also successful with preventing cyano.

People are free to believe what they want and manage their reefs the way they want. That's the fun of this hobby. But as you know, there are many "experts" here on these forums, that love to quote and pass on 3rd hand information. Me,... I put a lot more stock into direct experience, and those that can show me what their tanks actually look like.

Can you give an explanation or example of correct and incorrect usage?

[seabreeze]

I am new to this forum but have been a reefer for about 10years.

I also battled HA... long clumps on just about everything but the fish! I am very meticulous with my tank and take great pride in it. I got to the point that I ALMOST gave up... but in the end... I WON THE BATTLE!!!!

The process will be slow... took me 5 months to finally say that I am algae free... or at least 99%.

Your phosphates are low, but checking when you have HA will give you false hope because your HA is absorbing (and thriving) by consuming your phosphate.

I will give you what worked for me:

Regular water changes BUT NOT TOO FREQUENT. I was at the point of doing water changes every 2-3 days... but all those good 'extras' in the salt mix will actually feed the algae too. Weekly should be good.

Suck up as much HA with your tubing when going water changes. In between water changes regularly pull out HA. I had a bowl of cold tap water that I would put it into, dipping my fingers in it too before going back into the tank to pull out more. Once HA starts to die off, it will release more phosphates if you keep in in the tank... and that just keeps
the cycle going.


I used a toothbrush on tough-to-reach areas that were dying off... or areas where the HA was short and almost gone.
Make sure to keep your sump (and other areas you may have separate from your display) clean and not building up debris.
A long-spine urchin.

Regularly blasting the rocks

Strawberry hats... found them to be better than Mexican turbos

A phosban reactor with ROWAPHAS

A really good skimmer... and empty it often

Feed sparingly. I did not add any selcon/garlic etc to frozen food. I rinsed any frozen food in RO water

I did not feed any LPS or SPS (and they continued to thrive and grow). Enough from the water, frequent changes, fish waste etc.

No additives to water... ie amino acids

I do vodka dose

Coral Snow added twice a week when lights out

Below is my tank today.

13250

Have patience and you will conquer :biggrin:

[seabreeze]

Oops... and I keep a clump of chaeto in my sump

[gregzz4]

While the debate continues ...:smile:

Thanks for your input seabreeze
I've been doing everything you listed with a couple small differences;
I use HCGFO
WCs I'm doing weekly and may change to bi-monthly
I wasn't regularly basting the LR
My Strawberries and Turbos died - I suspect due to Cyano
No coral snow (coral frenzy in my case)
No vodka or vinegar dosing (yet)
All my frozen is rinsed well with RO in large batches, with garlic and aminos added before being frozen in small cubes

[gregzz4]

Oops... and I keep a clump of chaeto in my sump
Never been able to keep it alive
Would probably thrive right now :rolleyes:

[seabreeze]

Coral snow is not a coral food... it's a biological facilitator. Helps with all the undesirable algaes.

I found it to help in killing of the HA... would go from dark green to a light color and much easier to pull off the rock.

[gregzz4]

Hmm, thanks

[seabreeze]

I had the cyano too. Used CyanoClean from KZ. Expensive but it works!

I also increased my flow... added 3 tunze powerheads on a multi-controller.

[seabreeze]

If you are feeding coral frenzy I would hold off. Might be fueling your problem

[gregzz4]

If you are feeding coral frenzy I would hold off. Might be fueling your problem
I haven't been using it since before summer

[Reef Pilot]

Can you give an explanation or example of correct and incorrect usage?
Basically it comes down to understanding what fuels cyano and how MB7 works(out competes the cyano bacteria) , and then following instructions. I'll start with some incorrect MB7 usage.

Some people start bio pellet, vodka, vinegar or other carbon dosing too much and too quickly. This fuels the cyano and can lead to a major outbreak. Applying MB7, even heavy dosing, will not stop the cyano at this point. The correct procedure is to start MB7 (heavy dosage) at least 2 weeks prior to carbon dosing and ramp the carbon dosing up very slowly.

Similarly, applying MB7 to kill a cyano outbreak does not work. As I said, it is not a cure. It is a preventative. You need Chemiclean to completely get rid of cyano before using MB7.

Another mistake I saw was someone misreading the instructions thinking the weekly dosage was to be applied daily. Not understanding and following instructions seems to be a common theme. Unfortunately, people often never even realize it,... since they don't know what they don't know.

Doing it correctly is simply following instructions on dosage and frequency. And after having cut down to the low dosage, recognize when cyano may reappear, and then going back to the high dosage for a short time until it clears up. I had that happen a couple times early on, but was able to quickly beat it back.

Once the MB7 bacteria is fully established in your tank, cyano won't come back, at least I have not seen it for a couple years now. And I only use half or less of the low dosage amount.

Of course MB7 is no substitute for bad tank husbandry, including not turkey basting your live rock and sand to prevent the collection of detritus. But I also know that even with good husbandry, incl low P04 and N03, you can still get cyano if you don't use MB7.

I know some of the vendors here advocate other high end bacteria supplements and solutions. They may work as well. But MB7 is pretty simple and cheap to use, and very effective, if used correctly.

[BubblesUp]

I've been battling ha for a while now. It seems to be more of a brown than green algae. Glad I'm not the only one. When I used chemiclean in the past, I noticed the ha was also affected. Not alot but a bit. Today I'm doing a few days of chemiclean to affect the ha a bit followed by Kent Tech M according to instructions elsewhere to bring the magnesium up to, I think, 1600 or 1800 ppm. I called J&L yesterday to figure out which kit test to that level. Going on memory, increasing by 100 per day is recommended until the required level and kept there for 2 weeks. I'll try and update here after the process and hopefully I'll be free of the stuff.

[reefwars]

some more reading on microbacter

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/8/review


a discussion: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2090960


like i mentioned i dont doubt whats in it , but i also dont think its necessary ;)