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Aquattro
08-19-2014, 05:53 AM
So let's say you had a 300g tank that you transferred an existing 300g full of SPS into in one day. Then let's say you tested PO4 and found it to be close to 3PPM.

How would you manage that? I have no experience with phosphate issues and I'm not sure how to help this guy. Ideas?

WarDog
08-19-2014, 06:08 AM
100 % water change?

Aquattro
08-19-2014, 06:12 AM
100 % water change?

Ya, suggested that. But that's a lot of water to make and store and move. Also suggested fozdown.

Problem is the rock is all old dead rock that will keep leaching, so that would be multiple 100% changes over a few months.

Wheelman76
08-19-2014, 07:05 AM
What was the po4 level at normally in the old 300?

monocus
08-19-2014, 07:53 AM
use precision solutions phosphate reducer-more bang for your buck,10-15 gal waterchange every 1-2 days(as not to shock the system) add a bag of seachem roaphos(if i remember right) and change out every three days.keep monitoring every 2-3 days till you can cut back on the waterchanges and seachem.keep using phosphate reducer (about 180 drops a day-i was using 160 in my 240).run roaphos to keep it stable

Aquattro
08-19-2014, 12:01 PM
What was the po4 level at normally in the old 300?

I'm guessing the same. He had 21 tangs in it :(

DAVE
08-19-2014, 12:12 PM
Lanthium chloride. Dose according to bottle and test your ALK.

jordsyke
08-19-2014, 01:45 PM
Yes lanthium chloride works wonders for removing PO4 quickly, just be carerfull

reefwars
08-19-2014, 02:51 PM
Aquattro;910023]Ya, suggested that. But that's a lot of water to make and store and move. Also suggested fozdown.

Problem is the rock is all old dead rock that will keep leaching, so that would be multiple 100% changes over a few months.

Actually a 100% water change will do very little as the phosphate is bound to other thing in the tank , the good news is phosphates have a limit so it can only leach so long.

I agree lanthum chloride will do it but won't happen over night and the amount you'll need is going to be expensive .

reefwars
08-19-2014, 03:10 PM
Personally I'd set up a temp frag tank with good water while I dealt with the 300g ,I would get water bak n track as I'm sure if it's truly 3ppm then there's probably other issues as well.

I can assume you've double checked the testers

pinkreef
08-19-2014, 03:37 PM
sounds like todd? add 21 big clams:biggrin:

Aquattro
08-19-2014, 03:59 PM
Personally I'd set up a temp frag tank with good water while I dealt with the 300g ,I would get water bak n track as I'm sure if it's truly 3ppm then there's probably other issues as well.

I can assume you've double checked the testers

Not an option. Only tank available.

Aquattro
08-19-2014, 04:00 PM
sounds like todd? add 21 big clams:biggrin:

Yes, it's Todd's tank

Doug
08-19-2014, 06:58 PM
Nothing seems to help the crap leaking from my rock. Running two different kinds of gfo

Proteus
08-19-2014, 08:11 PM
Though it's only available tank could he not use a few totes to keep coral in while dealing with issue. Leaching from rock it will take a while to get out and I imagine going to be a algea bloom

Proteus
08-19-2014, 08:14 PM
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1333212

Reefer Rob
08-19-2014, 08:39 PM
What's your nitrate at? If you are nitrate limited, try dosing amino acid to raise the nitrate level to help biologically remove the phosphate. If I'm not mistaken you are running Zeovit, so that should bring the level down fairly quickly.

I used ammonia and sugar to quickly remove phosphate from my rocks before I set up my tank. It worked amazing.

mikellini
08-19-2014, 10:11 PM
Lanthanum chloride will be the fastest and cheapest way to reduce phosphates. Do a slow drip into a filter sock to catch precipitates so they won't bother any livestock. Don't reduce phosphates by more than 0.1ppm per day and you should be at a manageable level within a month. There are many posts about using lanthanum on RC, do a search for more information.

Aquattro
08-19-2014, 11:17 PM
What's your nitrate at? If you are nitrate limited, try dosing amino acid to raise the nitrate level to help biologically remove the phosphate. If I'm not mistaken you are running Zeovit, so that should bring the level down fairly quickly.

I used ammonia and sugar to quickly remove phosphate from my rocks before I set up my tank. It worked amazing.

Rob, not my tank (fortunately!). The NO3 is about 25 or 30ppm. Not really limiting :) This is why you don't stock so many fish in a tank!

AquaticExpressions
08-20-2014, 12:05 AM
Lanthanum chloride will be the fastest and cheapest way to reduce phosphates. Do a slow drip into a filter sock to catch precipitates so they won't bother any livestock. Don't reduce phosphates by more than 0.1ppm per day and you should be at a manageable level within a month. There are many posts about using lanthanum on RC, do a search for more information.

This is the cheapest/fastest method but you have to remember that you are removing calcium with phosphate.

Aquattro
08-20-2014, 12:28 AM
I think fozdown will be the tool of choice. And prayers to the reef gods.

AquaticExpressions
08-20-2014, 12:30 AM
Phos guard is very effective but because of how fast phosphate is removed it may cause your corals to be stressed. Ferric oxide would gradually remove phosphate which is a safer bet.

Best of luck!

mikellini
08-20-2014, 05:05 AM
Phos guard is very effective but because of how fast phosphate is removed it may cause your corals to be stressed. Ferric oxide would gradually remove phosphate which is a safer bet.

Best of luck!

It could get quite pricey (I'm thinking in the hundreds of dollars) to use GFO with such high concentrations and large water volumes. It would exhaust quite quickly, necessitating frequent changing.

Seaklear phosphate remover (a product for swimming pools, lanthanum chloride) in a 32 oz bottle removes 3ppm from 10,000 gallons for around $30.

TimT
08-20-2014, 05:47 PM
Hi Brad,

I would recommend the Foz Down. ;-)

It is a Lanthanum based product and when used in moderation does not cause a noticeable alkalinity drift. I have recently sourced the high purity Lanthanum directly so have been able to double the concentration and keep the price the same. :-) The bang for the buck of Foz Down is DOUBLED but consequently more care must be exercised in its application... don't accidentally spill the bottle into your tank.

The problem with the pool type Lanthanum removers is that there is several different grades of Lanthanum available on the market. I highly doubt they are going to use a more expensive higher purity Lanthanum for swimming pools.

It would cost you less than $30 to completely remove the Phosphate from that tank using Foz Down. If the Foz Down is dosed in an ATO or through a dosing pump the phosphate that the old rock releases will also be removed. Thus you won't have to replace the rock.

I personally have used it on a 240 gallon aquarium which had 1.4mg/l of Phosphate and the rock was 5+ years old. Last year the tank had an average phosphate level of <0.08mg/l with no gfo.

I use Foz Down daily on my 600 gallon Acro system and the colours are amazing.

There is a CanReef member who has used it to do a similar thing on his display tank in his store. Perhaps he will chime in on this thread.

Cheers,
Tim

Ulmo
08-20-2014, 06:03 PM
Agent Green is another lanthanum chloride product at Big Al's that I used on my pukani. Seemed to work good.

nrosdal
08-21-2014, 05:11 AM
I too use the phoz down with great results. But be sure not to drop it to fast as i have gotten carried away a couple times after testing and added an extra dose on top of my dosers normal amount and found a random white sps the next day. Just find a dose that steadily yet quickly drops it and keep it pretty steady until you are within range.

StirCrazy
08-21-2014, 05:14 AM
there has been some reports of lanthanum chloride affecting Tangs of the genus Zebrasoma. any experience with this ?

Steve

StirCrazy
08-21-2014, 05:32 AM
plus there are some other inherent problem like removing the resultant flocculent and the potential for deposits on equipment and tank sides, which reportably is very hard to remove from the glass and causes problems with the impellers in pumps.

Steve

mikellini
08-21-2014, 05:50 AM
Again why you would do a slow drip into a filter sock to catch the precipitate

Aquattro
08-21-2014, 05:52 AM
I set him up with foz down, now he's gotta deal with it :) The number of tangs has been significantly reduced.

nrosdal
08-21-2014, 05:53 AM
I am not sure about the tang issue. But have no problem with buildup of the flocks as i dose mine in the chamber before my filter socks so they catch all the phos that has binded. I do find that my filter socks last about 1/2 the time that they did before i started with the phoz down. But they are much easier to wash then a dirty gfo reactor.

reefwars
08-21-2014, 03:39 PM
Again why you would do a slow drip into a filter sock to catch the precipitate

Assuming your socks never overflow then wouldn't be a problem , but if it doesn't then precipitate will make it through , I also I should note that it's recommended to use a 10 micron sock while most in our hobby are 200 micron

pinkreef
08-21-2014, 04:49 PM
What's your nitrate at? If you are nitrate limited, try dosing amino acid to raise the nitrate level to help biologically remove the phosphate. If I'm not mistaken you are running Zeovit, so that should bring the level down fairly quickly.

I used ammonia and sugar to quickly remove phosphate from my rocks before I set up my tank. It worked amazing.

What dosage of ammonia and sugar did you use to prepare your rocks before setup?

TimT
08-21-2014, 04:57 PM
there has been some reports of lanthanum chloride affecting Tangs of the genus Zebrasoma. any experience with this ?

I have been using Foz down in my system for at least 3 years. There is a 5yr old Purple Sailfin Tang in the tank with no HLLE. I have 3 Yellow Sailfin Tangs in the system as well and they have no HLLE. I use Foz Down on a tank with 2 Pacific Sailfin Tangs with no HLLE. There are many factors that contribute to HLLE. HLLE was around a long time before Foz Down ever came out. People have used Metronizadole to cure HLLE so it sounds like it's a parasite and not a water condition. I suspect poor water conditions will contribute to a fish getting HLLE.


plus there are some other inherent problem like removing the resultant flocculent and the potential for deposits on equipment and tank sides, which reportably is very hard to remove from the glass and causes problems with the impellers in pumps.

I don't bother removing the flocs but I do clean the sump every 6 months. I suspect the worry about flocs is just a fear of the unknown.

Hard Calcium deposits on the heaters, magnetic impellers and occasionally the glass is caused by an unbalanced buffering system. Usually the Calcium is too high. If you keep your Magnesium at at least 1350 or 3 times the Calcium level the precipitation should stop. If it doesn't then raise the Magnesium slowly until it does. Then correct the issue that is causing the imbalance. The buildup is very hard to remove but the Mag Float Scrape works very well on glass only. You must use extreme caution as it will easily scratch glass if you get sand or grit caught in it. Deposits on impellers and heaters can be removed with vinegar or diluted Muriatic Acid. Muriatic Acid is very nasty so extreme caution is recommended.

Assuming your socks never overflow then wouldn't be a problem , but if it doesn't then precipitate will make it through , I also I should note that it's recommended to use a 10 micron sock while most in our hobby are 200 micron

If a person absolutely must remove the flocs then a 10 micron sock is recommended. I sent some to Reef Supply Canada a while ago so he may still have some available. The best way to use a filter sock is to have a small pump put water through the sock and a doser adds the diluted Foz Down into the top. If you don't have a doser available then you can add Foz Down into the ATO reservoir and put the ATO line into the filter sock.

If you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

Cheers,
Tim

StirCrazy
08-21-2014, 07:38 PM
I have been using Foz down in my system for at least 3 years. There is a 5yr old Purple Sailfin Tang in the tank with no HLLE. I have 3 Yellow Sailfin Tangs in the system as well and they have no HLLE. I use Foz Down on a tank with 2 Pacific Sailfin Tangs with no HLLE. There are many factors that contribute to HLLE. HLLE was around a long time before Foz Down ever came out. People have used Metronizadole to cure HLLE so it sounds like it's a parasite and not a water condition. I suspect poor water conditions will contribute to a fish getting HLLE.

I didn't mention HLLE at all so don't know where this is coming from. the issue that has been observed is rapid breathing, stress and erratic behaviour.

seams to start within a day or two of starting to dose and goes away with in a couple days after stopping. theory is the flock is affecting the gills but no one has done absolute testing so its just a theory. also reports of ill effects on certain types of SPS. now these seem to be in tanks that were dosed directly so that might have something to do with it also.




I don't bother removing the flocs but I do clean the sump every 6 months. I suspect the worry about flocs is just a fear of the unknown.

the flock precipitate and attach to your rock, glass ect..

Hard Calcium deposits on the heaters, magnetic impellers and occasionally the glass is caused by an unbalanced buffering system. Usually the Calcium is too high. If you keep your Magnesium at at least 1350 or 3 times the Calcium level the precipitation should stop. If it doesn't then raise the Magnesium slowly until it does. Then correct the issue that is causing the imbalance. The buildup is very hard to remove but the Mag Float Scrape works very well on glass only. You must use extreme caution as it will easily scratch glass if you get sand or grit caught in it. Deposits on impellers and heaters can be removed with vinegar or diluted Muriatic Acid. Muriatic Acid is very nasty so extreme caution is recommended.

Cheers,
Tim

Once again nothing to do with Calcium, I am talking about the phosphate that is precipitated out with the flock which has nothing to do with your alk/ca balance, just a fact of using this stuff to reduce phosphates. it is way way harder than ca precipitate and has been causing issues. I imagine Muriatic acid would still work though.

I think the best way I have seen it used to to have a separate filter tank set up where the stuff is dripped in and there is a cotton fiber filter that the water has to go through to get back to the main system. mind you people who do it this way are changing the cotton filter out every day or two for the first while.

Steve

hillegom
08-21-2014, 08:03 PM
The way I understand the chemical reaction is that the Lanthium chloride combines with both calcium and phosphate to make a new compound that precipitates out and is supposed to be non dissolving after that. So the reaction depletes both calcium and phosphate
Mind you, I have never used it so cannot talk from experience.

StirCrazy
08-21-2014, 08:41 PM
The way I understand the chemical reaction is that the Lanthium chloride combines with both calcium and phosphate to make a new compound that precipitates out and is supposed to be non dissolving after that. So the reaction depletes both calcium and phosphate
Mind you, I have never used it so cannot talk from experience.

everything I have read shows it just creates lanthanum phosphate LaPO4

I am looking at this as an addition for cooking old live rock, but I don't know if it will draw phosphates out of the rock as every who has played with it says there phosphates start rising again when they stop dosing.

Steve

TimT
08-21-2014, 09:57 PM
Hi Steve,

I didn't mention HLLE at all

Sorry my bad. Guess I engaged fingers before brain was fully functioning from the coffee this morning. LoL

the issue that has been observed is rapid breathing, stress and erratic behaviour.

I have not observed this in my system with the Purple and Yellow Tangs but I dose small amounts of high purity Foz Down frequently, have a consistently low Phosphate level and don't have an old Scopas Tang. Here is the article to which you may be referring to.
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/lanthanum-chloride-and-tangs.aspx

Some things I noticed about the article.
1. A small tank of 75 gallons.
2. Most likely using the highly concentrated pool version as they dosed 1ml/day.
2. Only the Scopas Tang was affected
3. It looked like it had been in a fight with another tang and then developed a secondary bacterial infection.
4. After massive water change the fish begins to improve.
5. Lanthanum dosing stopped.

My questions are? Was it the massive water change that helped the fish get better or was it the discontinuing Lanthanum dosing? Did the whole episode have anything to do with Lanthanum at all? The author makes it quite clear that it is anecdotal info.

There are a lot of public aquariums that rely on Lanthanum to control phosphate in their displays. Some use sand filters to remove flocks but I doubt it catches all of them or any non reacted Lanthanum.

As for the SPS I have some fairly sensitive species such as Echinata and they are fine. I will be doing pics today so can take one of the Echinata.

the flock precipitate and attach to your rock, glass ect..

I have not observed this at all and I have both acrylic and glass tanks in the system. In the tank where I removed a lot of Phosphate(1400mg/l) I did not notice this either. I removed the Phosphate over a period of 2 weeks.

Here is the article that talks about the precipitation and SPS issues.
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate

It must be noted that Daniel removed 1.3mg/l in a couple of days. Here is the quote from the article "They were adapted to a phosphate concentration of 1.6 mg/l, and in consequence grew slowly, and it seems that when this concentration dropped to 0.3 mg/l within a few days as a result of the drastic treatment, the complex physiological processes that take place in these corals were thrown out of balance."

From both of these old articles one can deduce that:
1. Lanthanum may or may not affect old Scopas Tangs.
2. Don't use too much too fast as you will shock corals and may cause precipitates to form.

The ideal best practice may be to dose the Lanthanum in a separate tank and trickle the water through it as you suggested. Next best would to slowly add diluted Foz Down into a 5-10 micron sock and have a small pump pumping water from sump through it. At the end of things we may or may not find that the precautions were necessary. It is up to the hobbyist how they want to operate their reef tanks. It has been over 6 years since people have started using Lanthanum in their tanks. If there was an issue one would think it would be all over the internet. Just my Timbits. ;-)

Cheers,
Tim

hillegom
08-21-2014, 10:43 PM
everything I have read shows it just creates lanthanum phosphate LaPO4

Steve

Thank you Steve, I stand corrected. I got the info word of mouth and have since done my own research.

StirCrazy
08-22-2014, 12:34 AM
Hi Steve,



Sorry my bad. Guess I engaged fingers before brain was fully functioning from the coffee this morning. LoL



I have not observed this in my system with the Purple and Yellow Tangs but I dose small amounts of high purity Foz Down frequently, have a consistently low Phosphate level and don't have an old Scopas Tang. Here is the article to which you may be referring to.
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/lanthanum-chloride-and-tangs.aspx

Some things I noticed about the article.
1. A small tank of 75 gallons.
2. Most likely using the highly concentrated pool version as they dosed 1ml/day.
2. Only the Scopas Tang was affected
3. It looked like it had been in a fight with another tang and then developed a secondary bacterial infection.
4. After massive water change the fish begins to improve.
5. Lanthanum dosing stopped.

My questions are? Was it the massive water change that helped the fish get better or was it the discontinuing Lanthanum dosing? Did the whole episode have anything to do with Lanthanum at all? The author makes it quite clear that it is anecdotal info.

There are a lot of public aquariums that rely on Lanthanum to control phosphate in their displays. Some use sand filters to remove flocks but I doubt it catches all of them or any non reacted Lanthanum.

As for the SPS I have some fairly sensitive species such as Echinata and they are fine. I will be doing pics today so can take one of the Echinata.



I have not observed this at all and I have both acrylic and glass tanks in the system. In the tank where I removed a lot of Phosphate(1400mg/l) I did not notice this either. I removed the Phosphate over a period of 2 weeks.

Here is the article that talks about the precipitation and SPS issues.
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate

It must be noted that Daniel removed 1.3mg/l in a couple of days. Here is the quote from the article "They were adapted to a phosphate concentration of 1.6 mg/l, and in consequence grew slowly, and it seems that when this concentration dropped to 0.3 mg/l within a few days as a result of the drastic treatment, the complex physiological processes that take place in these corals were thrown out of balance."

From both of these old articles one can deduce that:
1. Lanthanum may or may not affect old Scopas Tangs.
2. Don't use too much too fast as you will shock corals and may cause precipitates to form.

The ideal best practice may be to dose the Lanthanum in a separate tank and trickle the water through it as you suggested. Next best would to slowly add diluted Foz Down into a 5-10 micron sock and have a small pump pumping water from sump through it. At the end of things we may or may not find that the precautions were necessary. It is up to the hobbyist how they want to operate their reef tanks. It has been over 6 years since people have started using Lanthanum in their tanks. If there was an issue one would think it would be all over the internet. Just my Timbits. ;-)

Cheers,
Tim

Thanks for the replies Tim, that was one of the articles but there were about 3 more I was reading about the tangs, which had me wondering about it.. one instance and I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

6 years now... hmmm I've been under my rock far to long LOL

Have you ever stopped dosing ? and if so did your phosphates start creeping back up? I am looking at this for the purpose of cooking/curing a bunch of rock I have. I am going to basically do the real cooking, where you put it in total darkness with a heater, water flow and skimmer and frequent water changes go get the bug and bacterial life going but kill off any algae's and clean out the pours of the rock. My interest is will Lanthanum provide a permanent phosphate removal or will it have to be used long term?

Also from what I have been reading its effectiveness is reduced the lower the Phosphate levels and they seam to be recommending it in conjunction with other phosphate removers. Is this your experience also?

Thanks
Steve

reefwars
08-22-2014, 01:02 AM
Yes they can come back but that has nothing to do with the lanthanum itself and will happen with any binding remover. Simply put its effective enough to remove what's readable pretty fast , then if removed as phosphates slowly leach out they will then show up again eventually if enough is provided and no other methods put in place are effective enough to remove it.

TimT
08-22-2014, 01:38 AM
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the replies Tim, that was one of the articles but there were about 3 more I was reading about the tangs, which had me wondering about it.. one instance and I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

No worries. With good info people can make good decisions...

I will try to keep a few Scopas Tangs and see what happens.


6 years now... hmmm I've been under my rock far to long LOL

Yes, I felt the same way and I spent a lot of $$$ on that High Capacity GFO for a few years. That reactor was such a pain!!!


Have you ever stopped dosing ? and if so did your phosphates start creeping back up?

I have not stopped dosing and regularly check my phosphate. It was 0.02mg/l this afternoon. Phosphates are a result of decaying organics... from uneaten food, dead creatures and decaying algae. If there is life and death there will be phosphates. Kinda like taxes... no getting away from it. LoL.


I am looking at this for the purpose of cooking/curing a bunch of rock I have.

That is a great use for it due to it's low cost. You can remove all the bound up Phosphate in the rocks by just letting it leach out and then removing it with the Foz Down. No need to keep doing lots of water changes but just remove it slowly.

My interest is will Lanthanum provide a permanent phosphate removal or will it have to be used long term?

With Foz Down you can remove all bound up Phosphate from the rocks. Once however you start feeding the system and life resumes there will be new phosphate created that will need to be removed from the water via Foz Down. So the answer is Yes and Yes.

Also from what I have been reading its effectiveness is reduced the lower the Phosphate levels and they seam to be recommending it in conjunction with other phosphate removers. Is this your experience also?

With Lanthanum it is possible to reduce Phosphate down to 0.0015mg/l or 150 parts per billion. My experience is that I can get the Phosphate levels low enough in the system that I do not need to rely on other methods of Phosphate control. I only use Foz Down in my system.

Cheers,
Tim

Reefer Rob
08-22-2014, 02:14 PM
What dosage of ammonia and sugar did you use to prepare your rocks before setup?

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=103123

MitchM
08-30-2014, 12:17 PM
...

Problem is the rock is all old dead rock that will keep leaching, so that would be multiple 100% changes over a few months.

It sounds like the live rock has turned into a phosphate sponge of sorts.

What about swapping out the existing live rock with resin/plastic rock , then dosing Foz Down as ongoing maintenance?

The resin/plastic route seems to be working for this aquarist: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2391310