Looking to start a tank again!

[Gools]

looking n to settng up a small fresh water tank. What do I need to know to set one up? It's been about 6 years or more since I had fresh water. Do I have to let it cycle like saltwater? Any help or reading material would be appreciated. Thanks

[Invigor]

yea, the cycle's still there and needs to happen :) I've never had to "cycle" i just very slowly add fish and the bacteria grows slowly without getting out of hand.

if you have a friend with a fw tank, get a thing of filter wool and have your friend run it in his filter, then take it a week later and put it in your newly setup tank. tons of bacteria help seed the tank in a timely fashion.

[Gools]

I want to start a small community tank with those neon tetra's. But as in saltwater tanks they recomend you start with a damsel to cycle. Is there a certain fish you should cycle with or just add any fish slowly one at a time.

[Invigor]

zebra danios are great for starting tanks, you have to seriously try to kill them. depending on your tank size -- I got 8 for my 33gal tank and it worked alright before I added in some other fish.

Neon tetra's can be touchy, I lost 25 when I tried to start a tank with them. they all got ich and I didn't get meds in time and the bacteria wouldn't take care of the ammonia fast enough, so when you start adding neons just take your time with it, maybe 4-6 at once once you have had your danios for a few weeks. just check your nitrites and ammonia make sure they're 0!

[Gools]

Ok Thanks for the info. I'm also interested in keeping live plants what should I need to know for those? What kind of lighting do they require?

[Invigor]

depends on the plants, but i aim for about 2-3watts per gallon for standard tanks. from my short lived experience with plants, they're much like corals and like to be in a well seasoned tank before they really thrive. I haven't had luck with new tanks and live plants surviving

[Cap'n]

Agree with the danios; I have the same three I started with close to a year ago; great dither / community fish.

Disagree with the plant info. Get yourself some java ferns and valisneria with a lot of natural light and / or flourescent and you're set.

[trilinearmipmap]

For planted tanks check out the Aquabotanic web forums at www.aquabotanic.com

You do not need to do a cycle if you are starting a planted tank, in fact fishless cycling a planted tank would be a classic newbie error.

The basics you need for a planted tank are

Lighting: 2 to 3 watts per gallon, most people us compact fluorescents
Substrates: a plant substrate such as flourite, onyx sand, or eco-complete
fertilizers: read up on the Barr method of fertilization or PMDD, take your pick
CO2: optional

Anyway good luck.

[StirCrazy]

do not use a fish to cycle a tank weather it be salt water or fresh water it is just cruel to the fish to make it go through thoes conditions. If it is a tetra tank you want them I assume that you are thinking of planting the tank also. in that case if you do it right there will be no cycle at all.

by this I meen that if you buy the right plants and enuf of them they will adsorb all the amonia befor you get a chance to even detect it on a test kit.

as mentioned 2 to 3 watts per gallon is about a good happy medium. if you stay that low don't waist mony on onix sand or florite ect. just get a substrate that is 2 to 3 mm in size and do it 2 to 3 inches deep to give lots of room for root development. if you think that laiter you might bump the light up to 5 to 10 watts per gal and go for high light plants and get serious about the planted side then buy the better substrate. but at this light level you will most likly have to add CO2 and fertalizer also.

the key to doing the plants and havign them live is to pick the right kind of plants, giant hygro, most anuibus, jungle vail, hygro stricta, are all good low to medium light plants, for starting the tank focus on *fast growing stem based plants* these kinda are a large intaker of nutrents from the water, I trim mine down once a month and they are growing out of the water by the next time to trim.


Steve

[Gools]

So What kind of lighting do I need? I'm thinking of setting up a 45g tank. With just regular flouresents. Can I just use 6500K from like home depot? That's what I use on my refugium and my macro grow good. Also do I need to add any supplements, for the plants? I have read a little about the Co2 systems, but I don't want to go that far right now anyway, maybe down the road. Can regular playsand from the hardware store be used as substrate, or do the plants require some sort of nutrients from the substrate? Thanks guy for all your input.

[Invigor]

i bought silica sand used for jacuzzi sand filters from a pool shop 50lbs for $15. Couldn't argue with that. I know people just use the tubes from hardware stores. I believe philips has a "plant grow" bulb. it's like $5 for a 24" tube

[Gools]

What about water flow. Should I hook up my undergravel filter with powerheads? I'm also going to run one of those aquaclear filters, is that enought filtration?

[Richer]

We need more details.
What size tank are you looking at setting up? What kind of fish?

Assuming that "small" means something under 30 gallons. In that case a single Aquaclear filter with two sponges in it will work quite nicely. For a 30 gallon, I would suggest at least one AC300, or two AC150s. For a 20 gallon, at least an AC200. For a 15 gallon, at least an AC150. I think you can see the pattern. A turnover rate of around 10x is plenty enough for many FW fish... vary this rate according to what kind of fish you want to get.

A planted setup can be done in a couple of ways. Generally, its split up into two sections, low light and high light.

Generally, if you're running less than 2 watts/gallon worth of NO flourescent lighting you're running a low lighted setup, any higher and its generally considered as a high lighted setup. This general rule of thumb varies according to the type of lighting you use (ie. flourescent, PC, MH), how tall your tank is, and how much ambient lighting your tank gets.

For a low-lighted tank, I would generally suggest using NO lighting... PC and MH lights penetrate the water too much for a decent low-light plant tank to work. Adding floating plants can generally help quite well... or plants that spread across the surface of the water. Fish load should be light-medium, fertillizing isn't nessessary... though adding a few trace elements may or may not help. Its a guess and check game. Once you get the balance correct, it gets quite routine. CO2 injection is optional... though its not needed, it would benefit a tank of this type to a certain extent. Plants tend to grow more slowly in this type of setup. Once setup with the correct routine, it is a relatively low maintanence type of setup.
I had a very nice 20 gallon bowfront lowlight tank running for awhile. I had 5 pgmy cories and a dwarf gourami as stock. The tank had a single piece of driftwood in the middle of the tank, partially covered with various species of anubias plants. The substrate consisted of a mixture of flourite and onyx sand and was carpeted by anubias plants as well. Floating plants consisted of a loose "mat" of riccia and duckweed. The whole thing was lighted by a slightly overdriven 36 watt PC light fixture. A 40% water change was done once every 2 weeks, and I only added a little bit of Flourish whenever I felt like it... generally once a week, sometimes less, sometimes more. It was a very peaceful tank, quite different from my other tanks which have relatively high levels of traffic.

High-light setups get a bit more complicated. CO2 injection is a must, without it, you will be forever doomed to cleaning up algae bloom after algae bloom. IME, if you have a choice between upgrading your lights and getting CO2 injection, go CO2 first. Find a KH and CO2 chart, using those two measures, aim for a CO2 concentration of around 15-30ppm. Using things that release tannis (ie. driftwood, peat) will skew the chart somewhat. Fertillizing regularly is also a need, though the amount completely depends on your fish load and plant type. As I said before, 2 watts/gallon or more of NO lighting will put you into this category. I personally prefer PC lighting for high-light setups. VHOs would work as well. I would generally limit myself to less than 4-5watts/gallon... 3-4 watts/gallon of PC lighting should be more than enough to grow just about anything. Fertillizing can get a little bit complicated if you want solid numbers... if you've been in this hobby long enough, you'll know that almost nothing is solid. Generally, you want to aim for a nitrate level of around 5ppm. Potassium, and trace elements should be dosed regularly. Phosphates can be dosed in very small amounts once a week. This is where most people slip up, and thus algae blooms go wild. Unforunately, the only way to find out your perfect level is by experimenting. If done correctly, you will more or less rid yourself of visable algae, and your plants will go wild. Generally, you want slower growing plants in a high light setup. If you have fast growers (ie. most stem plants), you'll find yourself spending more time trimming back plants, rather than enjoying your tank.
I currently have a 70 gallon high light tank running. It has a 5lbs CO2 tank feeding an internal DIY CO2 reactor, 220watts of PC lighting, and a moderate fish load (I've long lost count of how many fish I have in there). The tank is heavily planted, and everything grows like weeds. I've experimented growing nearly everything... and I can say, just about everything will grow in this tank. I even got riccia growing like weeds and pearling like crazy... very beautiful. I do 50% water changes once a week. Afterwards I dose nitrates up to 5ppm, a few capfuls of potassium fertillizer that I DIYed from water softener salt I got from Home Depot, and I dose a few capfuls of Flourish for trace. I also dose a couple mls of Fleet Enema (thats right, enema from the drug store) for phosphates. I need to trim my plants by once a week, or else they get out of control. My fish load seems high enough to keep my nitrates detectable up to my water change. As long as I dose nitrates after a water change, I normally have just enough nitrates to last for a week. Potassium and Flourish is dosed once every 2-3 days. Maintanence is relatively high compare to my other tanks, but once a routine is established its easy to do. Unforunately, I've been on extended holidays before and I lost my riccia plants... most likely due to lack of fertillization. I just came back from a 3 week vacation from Asia and my tank looks likes its probably gonna burst from all the plants that are growing in there. Trimming is going to be taken slowly though. If too many plants are trimmed back, I run the risk of causing a nasty algae bloom.

If you have any more questions with regards to planted tanks, and/or FW tanks in general, ask! I'm a newbie at this SW/reef stuff, but FW/plant tanks are my specialty =).

HTH
-Richer

[Gools]

Hey Richer, Thanks for the response. I'm thinking about setting up a 45g tank. 18" high. I want to keep neon tetra's. Other fish have not been decided, but that's what I want to base my tank on, so what other fish are compatable with them I will get. I'm not going to get into a major setup just some low light plants. I am looking for some that you plant then they root all the way up to the top and cover all the top. Is there a plant like that for a low light system? Is there a website that shows pictures and care requirements on the net? Thanks

[StirCrazy]

I have 80 watts of light on a 37 gal tank, I am using hagin power glo's and 6500 day light bulbs. I find that if you just use the 6500 the colors are a little on the drab side but if you add one or two powerglo's (10000K) it wakes the fish colors up a fait but. I am going to redo the lid for my fresh water tank so I can add two more bulbs and I am concidering adding 1 actinic bulb to the mix to see how it looks.

Steve

[Richer]

There are many fish that are compatible with neons. Many of the smaller/medium sized tetras will work (just avoid tetras like congos.. they grow too large for a 45 gal). You could try a pair of angelfish... though get them when their young. If you get angelfish when they're young, there's a good chance that they won't prey on the neons as they grow up, because by the time they get large enough to eat a juv. neon, the neons in the tank should have grown up. Cory cats would work well if you want some movement on your substrate. There are so many possibilities... I'd suggest going window shopping at your LFS. Write down what sort of fish you'd like to keep, then get back to us on it.

I forget what kind of plants can grow up enough to provide surface cover, however most stem plants should do the trick. Personally, I would suggest using floating plants. Unless you can get a well grown out plant, most of the plants you get from a LFS would not be tall enough to reach the surface of your tank. During the time that it would take the plant to grow large enough, you'll be battling algae blooms. I'll see if I can get a picture of my plant tank now... its quite a bit overgrown and some of the stem plants in there are shading out the tank. It'll give you an idea whether or not you like the look. On a personal level, I don't like seeing my plants reach the surface of the tank... I usually keep them trimmed a couple of inches from the surface. So if I needed surface cover, I would use floating plants.

Try out other freshwater boards if you want help from someone other than me. There are so many ways to go around planting a tank, that no one person is correct. I believe that www.plantgeek.com is quite a decent aquatic plant site. Other FW boards like www.aquariacentral.com have a few experienced plant keepers as well.

HTH
-Richer

[Richer]

As promised... here are some pictures. This is my 70 gallon, high light, CO2 injected tank... after I came back from a 3 week holiday. I've been meaning to replace a lot of my stem plants with slower growers for the past year, but I never got around to it. As you can see, the stem plants have grown tall enough to provide some decent surface cover, but at a price... it also takes up a lot of room, whereas floating plants do not.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/metroopt/Aquarium/P1000332.JPG

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/metroopt/Aquarium/P1000333.JPG

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/metroopt/Aquarium/P1000334.JPG

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/metroopt/Aquarium/P1000335.JPG

HTH
-Richer

[Gools]

Thanks again Richer. I'll be sure to check out those site's. You tank looks great. With your "high light" tank are they Metal halides? Can I just use my old saltwater Halide bulbs? They where rated as the 10000K, but of course over time they lose there spectrum, so would they be good to use on a freshwater setup?

[Richer]

My highlight tank is runned on PC lights.

I personally think that PC lighting is much more economical when it comes to lighting smaller plant tanks than MH lighting. Plants do not need nearly the same amount of lights that reefs get. I'd say that 4-5 watts/gallon would be a nice general maximum to go for... I personally won't do anything more than 4 watts/gallon if I can help it. MH lights usually only cover about a two square feet area... a 45 gallon is obviously longer than 2 feet. MH lights are nice for penetrating water, but not for widespread lighting. I suppose if you really wanted to use a MH bulb (I assume a 175watt) you could always place higher light demanding plants near the area where the MH bulb is (I'll assume the center) then place lower light plants near the edges (like java mosses, java ferns, anubias, etc.).
The kelvin rating isn't too critical... its mostly what you like to see. All of my plant tanks run on 6700k bulbs, mainly because I like to see that kind of lighting in my plants. For awhile I did run a 10000k bulb on my experimental 15gallon for about a year, and I got growth that was just as fast as my 6700k runned tanks. Degrading spectrum doesn't seem to do much for plants neither... or that I could observed. I've been running the same PC bulbs on my 70gallon for the past 2 years, and I haven't run into trouble yet... I plan on replacing them when they burn out.

If you are on a budget I would suggest using NO lighting... flourescent fixtures from Homedepot would do very nicely. I believe they also sell flourescent bulbs meant for growing plants. These would work perfectly for a tank and they won't empty your wallet.

Just keep this general rule in mind. More light doesn't always mean more growth. Keeping plants is a delicate balance of nutrients, lighting and CO2 availability. I've seen countless people who run very successful lowlight plant tanks, who later on upgrade their lights in an effort to speed up plant growth without realizing that with more light they would need a higher CO2 concentration in the tank. What happens in the end? Algae bloom after algae bloom. Not very fun. So if given a choice between getting a nicer light fixture, or getting CO2 injection... go the CO2 route first.

HTH
-Richer