NOS-ICH anyone tried?

[smitas5]

Hi all,
Fairly new to the hobby and since salt ich is very different from fresh, need some advice.
I was told to get QT so got it today for 30$ and it's up and running downstairs now.
Also purchased refractometer today and after calibration my DT was reading 1.032, so not a great start.
Now I have Yellow tang, Maroon clown & Pottery angel there and seems to be clown was less affected, but all have ich and it seems to be getting worse every couple days. Fish are eating and behaving well still.

I searched for copper based meds in 3 shops already and either they had so-called reef safe meds or one shop said it is very strong but not copper based NOX-ICH. it contains 50% Sodium Chloride & 50% Malachide Green.

Not sure what to do.. should I try these meds, since have nothing else? .. still have to catch the fish..

Now slowly reducing salinity... it's down to 1.024

[bumper]

I can't comment much on the use of malachide green and ich treatment on marine fish, it does treat freshwater ich. Nox ich, quick cure and paraguard are typically effective freshwater ich treatments. Copper worked on a pair of skunk clowns for me, tested and maintained the concentration. Feeding metro mixed with focus and garlic extract helps the fish retain an appetite but I'm not sure how effective it is; I've lost fish while only trying to feed medicated foods.
But I do find a uv sterilizer to have controlled minor ich outbreaks. Even a 9w aa uv in my 90 gallon, then I stepped it up to 18 watt Laguna pond sterilizer. Somewhere I read 12w or greater is effective at killing ich where the water receives an average exposure time to the uv. It does seem to help. If you're still cycling your display, the uv can damage beneficial bacteria and should not running while seeding the tank. But it can also be useful in qt.


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[corpusse]

Don't waste your time, get seachem cupramine, a seachem copper test kit and ammonia alert badge. Dose slowly, slower then instructions and test for copper frequently to semi frequently (once I get to full dose I don't really worry since I keep the tank topped up).

Otherwise you can try the tank transfer method if you have 2 tanks. Personally I've only used copper though.

[smitas5]

Thanks for that.. I could not find copper based stuff so trying the hyposalinity and so far no changes, but fish still eating.. Also placing order for seachem meds and tests.. would you guys use Seachem other tests too? like ammonia, nitrate, calcium & etc?

[Cujo#31]

Off the shelf meds are "ok" for post purchase dip before QT, but not as a reliable treatment IMHO. Incredibly stressful on livestock. Best bet slowly drop saline over a couple days to 1.09 and hold there in QT for minimum 28 days. Watch PH levels. Once 28 day min at 1.09 SLOWLY raise saline to normal levls. Fish naturally metabolize SW at 1.09. Lower saline levels actually reduce stress on fish as well, but no good for coral or inverts.
If fish stress levels and displayed anxiety levels still ok, keep in hypo saline as long as possible as some strains of marine ich cycle longer than 28 days. Watch EVERYTHING u put into ur DT. Cuz the only way stuff gets in our systems is if we put it there. Even nets can transferr nasties. Post purchase dip, QT and PATIENCE is 100% best method of controlling (notice I didnt say eliminating) bad stuff frm getting in.
Good Luck

[Craigdillman]

Grab one of those ammonia alert badges too they are a life saver in QT and also grab some prime cause I'm sure if its anything like my hypo ordeal there will be an ammonia spike

[smitas5]

Managed to keep fishes in hypo and situation got very stressfull between maroon clown and pottery angel.. Angel was on the ground for a while breathing fast, so I had to make a call.. I moved clown and yellow tang back to DT.. Looks like they both doing ok not in DT.. Angel soon after died. I thing hypo works very well in general. Ammonia alert tool works well too. I also used ammoguard to maintain safe levels of amonia.
Now I have copeper test and treatment for future..

Winder what is the advantage of copper if you are still recommended to keep DT empty for a while in order to reduce parasite levels.. Like it was mentioned you cant get rid of them..

After I transfered back my two fishes, in couple days they got 3-4 spots on them again, thought I screwed it up by moving too early, but looks like it cleared up now.. So they were able to fight back this time..

This is what I got out of the situation. Thanks

[Craigdillman]

If they didn't make it through the month on hypo and you added them back to the DT then they probably still have ich like you said if there were spots when you added them back the ich is still there so no your dt has ich again/still

The fish on the ground is usually result of ammonia or the ich rather than the hypo, in my experience fish handle hypo well just not the ammonia.

So not sure where your at

[Craigdillman]

Also how long was the dt fallow cause they might have made it through the hypo long enough but if the DT wasn't fallow enough then there coulda been ich still in there and re attached (I think 7-8 weeks is standard)

Either way if you seen spots after you added them if say the ich is still there

[smitas5]

Ich cleared within 4 days in QT on all the fish, but as soon as fishes started feeling better, bullying started and angel got the worst of it from clown.. Therefore I added them back.. I think they were clear for 2-3 weeks from ich while in QT, but ich survived in DT so reattached on to them as soon as I added them back. But clear again for nearly a week now, so hoping fishes are now strong to fight it.. I was told you can never really get rid of it, long term.. You will always get it as soon as you add more organisms from outside your system.

[Craigdillman]

You can get rid of it and you can stop it getting into your tank through QT. It's just if you want to go through the processes to stop it

[Craigdillman]

Sorry just hate when people get bad info about ich ---> gets off the soap box

[smitas5]

Ok, next I'm going all the way next time..
So do you keep your QT empty for a while in between the quarantined fish to make sure ich is died off or treat every fish with copper or hypo?

[Craigdillman]

I now treat all new fish with tank transfer then prazipro and watch them after to make sure they are looking/eating good.

In between it's all empty and cleaned just waiting for new fish (wooo)

If your doing hypo or copper you can just empty the tank after and clean and dry it out and it's ready for the next round

[Craigdillman]

That way you don't have to keep it running the whole time, unless you have the means to do that

[hillegom]

Here is some reading for you
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

And tank transfer which is what I do as well.
http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/3daytransfer.html

[smitas5]

Would UV light help with this? I might be getting paranoid here, but I think. I saw some spots this evening.. Usually its more visible under moonlight.

I was thinking to get UV maybe permanently installed? What kind for 50G?

[hillegom]

UV light will help of course, but can never get rid of them all. They have to pass through the light to die, at the right flow speed for the light you buy. Some would hatch and reinfest the fish before being "irradiated."
Its not easy to totally get rid of ick, but can be done. It takes time.
Read up on all the material you can find.

[smitas5]

any particular UV light would you recommend for 50G cube? I was going to buy something on eBay, but then what do I know, never had one before.. what Wattage should I look for?

[asylumdown]

Would UV light help with this? I might be getting paranoid here, but I think. I saw some spots this evening.. Usually its more visible under moonlight.

I was thinking to get UV maybe permanently installed? What kind for 50G?

I think UV sterilizers do more to make the people who buy them feel like they're doing something proactive about ich than actually combat the C. irritans parasite in any meaningful way.

Studies on the life cycle of marine ich have repeatedly shown that the parasite both detaches from the fish, and hatches from the substrate at night, with peak activity between 3 and 6am if I remember correctly. Once the theronts emerge from the tomont cyst, they swim about in a spiral pattern looking for a host, which they have to find within 18-24 hours or they die, though one study found they lost the ability to actually infect a new host even faster.

The reason I say this is because the parasite couldn't have evolved and survived over millions of years if it spent any significant amount of the time it's searching for a new host just blindly spinning about in the water column of something as big as the ocean. The fact that it both drops off the fish and hatches in the middle of the night is most likely an evolutionary strategy to minimize the distance between itself, a suitable substrate, and it's next host. The parasite drops off your fish when they're tucked away in their favourite night time hiding place, usually less than an inch or two from the substrate it encysts upon, in nooks and crannies filled with a gauntlet of suitable places for it to attach between it and your UV sterilizer. Since many/most fish (especially in aquariums) return to the same places to sleep every single night, the vast majority of infection will take place within seconds of the theronts hatching, long before any of that water will make its way to a UV sterilizer. I've seen people say they added a UV sterilizer and then ich went away, but that is the same kind of correlation fallacy that lead ancient hunter gatherers to believe that they could make it rain by doing a special dance.

Also it's absolutely possible to have an ich free tank. The people who say otherwise are usually just saying that to justify whatever ineffective or (more often) totally absent quarantine procedure they happen to subscribe to. A more accurate statement would add the caveat that it's impossible to have or maintain an ich free tank when you don't prophylactically quarantine all fish using a method that's known to eliminate C. irritans from the beginning, or appropriately treat and fallow a tank once infection does occur. C. irritans is a discrete organism with a specific life cycle. It doesn't just appear from the ether, and assuming you take even moderate precautions when adding things to your tank, it can be kept out permanently, you just need to understand it's life cycle.

Also, not every white speck on your fish is 'ich', and yes it's possible to be overly paranoid. I'd never get too worried, or even start talking about 'ich' unless the fish was covered in dozens/hundreds of conspicuous, unambiguous spots. Knee jerk reactions at the first sign of something that could just as easily be a small grain of sand, a play of light on textured scales, or a million other fleeting skin conditions are more likely to kill your fish than ich is.

[Craigdillman]

^ yea agree

Honestly I think your beating around the bush if you want the ich gone you got to treat it properly if you don't mind having it then it is what it is, UV sterilizer isn't the answer I think would be a waste of money on that tank and I'm not even sure you would "see " any benifit from it

I think a lot of people are giving the same good advise

[smitas5]

Ok, I get it, the only other reason I was considering UV, was the algae on the glass, thought I'll keep it for algae if it does not help with the ich.

As for the ich, I have some logistic questions..

2 ways I was thinking to handle this if it gets any worse at all:
- move all fish to quarantine, treat with hypo 1.008 for a week or two, but don't move them back to the DT for another week, but start raising the salts and add some live rock I have cycling separately for the last 3 weeks on their own.. QT is small and keeping amonia away is a challenge.

- do same, except instead of hypo, treat with copper and then keep doing water changes till all copper gone before adding live rock..

Am I leaving any loopholes here for parasite to survive?

Fishes I have: maroon clown, yellow tang, mandarin, yellow stripe gobby. Even though I was told mandarin can not get ich, was thinking I would need to move him too?

And thansk again for all the advice..

[hillegom]

Most people keep the DT fallow for 8 weeks. Most strains of ick will be dead then. Any less, then you are gambling.
I would QT the mandarin as well. Ick also infects fishes gills where we do not see the parasites.
I don't do hypo, but I thought the lowest you could go was 1.009?
I do tank transfer. Once your DT is free of ick, you might consider this method for your incoming, usually one fish at a time.

[Craigdillman]

Ok, I get it, the only other reason I was considering UV, was the algae on the glass, thought I'll keep it for algae if it does not help with the ich.

As for the ich, I have some logistic questions..

2 ways I was thinking to handle this if it gets any worse at all:
- move all fish to quarantine, treat with hypo 1.008 for a week or two, but don't move them back to the DT for another week, but start raising the salts and add some live rock I have cycling separately for the last 3 weeks on their own.. QT is small and keeping amonia away is a challenge.

- do same, except instead of hypo, treat with copper and then keep doing water changes till all copper gone before adding live rock..

Am I leaving any loopholes here for parasite to survive?

Fishes I have: maroon clown, yellow tang, mandarin, yellow stripe gobby. Even though I was told mandarin can not get ich, was thinking I would need to move him too?




And thansk again for all the advice..

Ok man IMMA Help you out here

Both the hypo or copper will work but

- you need a month of hypo for it to be sure you get it 2 weeks isn't long enough
- copper is a shorter process than hypo and might be better to be quick for the mandarin cause thats gonna cause a problem

EITHER way you need to keep the DT fallow no fish for 8 weeks or all your work will go to waste, yes most concensious is that mandarins are mostly immune or less likely to get to ich BUT they can still be a carrier of it and it would suck to do all the work and waste the time

Have you looked up the TT method? For the price of that UV serializer u were talking about you can go on kijiji/canreef and get 2 used 20-30 gallon tanks 2 heaters 2 old crappy HOB filters and lids and do the TT method its only 14 days i think and after you just keep them in the tank for 6 more weeks and make sure the DT is fallow and your good to go

Sounds like you already have 1 QT tank and setup so all you need is 1 more used set up nothing fancy

OR last option is Grab a used tank (but bigger) and run a Copper in there if it was bigger than the ammonia is slower and you can do WC and run Prime and it should be ok

I know its a lot man i only trying to help you Cause i feel for you and went throughout the same process when i upgraded from my 30 to big tank over a year ago and got ich was in denial and finally came to terms and got my **** together and fixed it and now i won't go without QT every fish and dipping inspecting all my coral

[hillegom]

^^^

Smitas I would advise you to read this again:
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

[smitas5]

Thank you all.. Sorry I'm slow with this :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I have 8 weeks to keep my DT idle, there is no advantage to do copper treatment right? I know it's faster, but I also read that copper and ammonia reducing treatments don't always work as nice?

I'm already looking for another QT and was thinking to run it full time in the basement for the future needs. By the way the one I have is less than 20G, suspect could be more like 10... so looking for 30 ish gallon one now, so could serve for treatment, also maybe could add some live rock there to cope with single fish during quarantine.. not too sure about the light needed, at the moment it's something from fresh water tank..

Thanks again for you help. I keep observe all the fish and they all look good for now, so I stay away and try to cause as little stress as I can.

[lpsreefer]

chloroquine phosphate is what I use for ich treatment.
Nice acticle on it
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/fish