Selling Corals for Profit $$$

[TheGringo]

Just noticing some recent for sale threads by user/s on Canreef...

For starters. Everyone has the right to do what they choose with their money, either buy from these sellers, or do the same as these sellers (if you can afford it) and buy direct from sites or businesses most likely at discounts. When you buy scolys, brains, or frags of anything for the purpose of selling for profit and have no intention on keeping them or enjoying them strictly to line your own pockets and sell at retail prices competing with legitimate retailers, just doesn't seem right. If I was in the business (which I'm not) I may be a little annoyed (which I kind of am I guess)

If you...
-Don't have a business license
-Don't pay tax (except when you purchase)
-Don't pay sponsorship fees
-etc

Not saying you need to! But... The CRA may not look to kindly at this venture

Buying frags and growing them out in your home aquarium and the fragging them for trade or sell is a GREAT thing! Doing so is encouraged IMO and totally reef safe. Maybe you make money doing so, helping pay for this expensive hobby? Thats a great way to keep costs down and the wife/parents/kids happy. All for it!

And I do think it's a fine line, if someone pays top dollar for something no one else has, say 5 rare zoa polyps, keeps one and sells or trades 4 of them for profit, that can be totally fine (even though its kinda the same thing). But when you're doing it in bulk and when you buy the single pieces and sell the single pieces knowing full well you didn't want it to begin with and saw potential in making money, then, well, couch cough. You're competing with legitimate business and contributing nothing to our economy like the hard working businesses out there

Just know that some people, doubt it's just me, feel the same way.

[Slyguy00]

I think people have the right to do as they please. If someone gets something for a good deal, and sees the value of it and wants to make some money how is that wrong at all??? If the stores wonna compete maybe they should lower the prices a little bit. I'm all for buying coral to make profit. Gotta pay for this expensive hobby somehow. And I find it irritating you would go out of your way to write such a long post just to complain about what other people do with the stuff they buy. Especially for your first post here.

[Coral Hoarder]

I am 100% fine with if some one gets a good deal and sees the value in the piece sells it and makes a buck. if some one at a store sees this as unfare that some one might buy something frag it and re sell it stores should raise prices


Now if your bringing corals in from a wholesaler in indonesia or aussi then absolutely you should be paying taxes or having a business licence can't think I know of any one i know doing that tho

[Aquattro]

Here's the deal with this. The selling of frags on the site is approved ONLY for frags you've raised and trimmed to make room in your tank. You own the colony and trim it, or you are parting with something no longer wanted.

Any poster that is verified, or close enough for my satisfaction, as selling any items for the sole intent of profit from resale, will be removed.

I'm also really annoyed at members making fake accounts to post an opinion. If you have one, post it. Don't hide. I'm reviewing and will possibly ban all IPs related to this fake ID.

[Slyguy00]

Good call brad

[FishingGoalie]

I think people have the right to do as they please. If someone gets something for a good deal, and sees the value of it and wants to make some money how is that wrong at all??? If the stores wonna compete maybe they should lower the prices a little bit. I'm all for buying coral to make profit. Gotta pay for this expensive hobby somehow.

I agree in some points to everyones responses. I personally wouldn't buy something from a fellow canreefer and sell it for a better price as that is just rude. What I have done in the past is buy a large colony from someone and the colony was to large to fit where i want it to go. So what I did was get a hold of the person who sold it to me and i asked them if he wouldn't mind if i fragged it and sold some pieces and asking him what price he thought was fair and we came to a conclusion on the price. I then saved him a piece for his new tank as well. I also usually only go to the stores that i think have fair prices, there is many stores I go to which i find way over priced.

In response to brad I agree with him completely on the selling your own frags and trimming. I actually didn't wasn't aware of this rule until now and I'm glad it was brought to my attention. On the other hand i feel if someone makes a bad purchase that they shouldn't have they should be allowed to sell it.( We have all made bad purchases that we wish we could take back.

This is just my 2 cents.

[Slyguy00]

I agree with you there. I also would not buy something from somebody off here and sell it for more. But if i go to a store and see something i want and i know its worrh money i will keep a piece for myself and sell the rest to try and recover my costs. I dont see anything wrong with that.

[FishingGoalie]

Yup Me neither

[mseepman]

It surprises me that someone can feel as strong as the OP does about something yet still want to hide their ID There are always some "strong" personalities on these types of boards but overall Canreef is one of the most laid back groups I've ever encountered. I can't see everyone harassing the OP over their opinion so they should have done it under their real ID. Just my 2 cents.
As for the content of the post, well I agree that "flipping" isn't probably the best practice. There are always extenuating circumstances that could come into play but it's better to grow and frag your own stuff.

[Aquattro]

Buying something and selling half, or selling something you find you regret buying is fine. It's the bulk buying/growing for profit that isn't allowed. We let a lot of grey areas slide, but people that have a 20g tank, and a 200g frag system in the basement are considered commercial.
We strive to maintain the spirit of hobbyist sharing and supplementing some of the costs of the hobby, but if you're pulling in $800/mo regularly, you're a business!

[FishingGoalie]

800$ A MONTH? Thats crazy I only wish. The most I've made a month from selling frags was maybe 10$ :P

[Reef Pilot]

Well, if I can't sell more of these excess orange digi weeds:mrgreen: in my tank, am going to have to start giving them away... Profit, shmofit... Wanna see my hydro bill?

[Aquattro]

The point is, if you have a large tank, and corals are breaking through the glass, you're going to have a lot to sell. It's the chopshop guys we're asking to sell elsewhere :)

[lastlight]

the point is it's easy enough to hide your real IP address if you need to. tskitty tsk tsk :lol:

[Aquattro]

the point is it's easy enough to hide your real IP address if you need to. tskitty tsk tsk :lol:

Nobody ever does :)

But there are other ways. I've identified this person by something other than IP.

[reefwars]

Nobody ever does :)

But there are other ways. I've identified this person by something other than IP.

i told you it wasnt me i swear:mrgreen:

[reefwars]

i think its all fine when your talking about a 10" favia at the lfs and someone wants to sell it in 15 pieces at $30 each just to make a quick buck , yes thats shady.

to be honest i dont even have a display tank , when mine crashed i found all my enjoyment in my grow/frag systems . i grow each and every polyp myself...one by one except for the first one(im not god) i dont even like fish and corals is where its at for me lol

i actually found a new enjoyment in the hobby and it steps away from a traditional display tank. i like collector/designer zoanthids its the drive to find them , bring them in and selectively propagate them that i enjoy, simply put i love zoanthids. old ones fund new ones and the types of zoas i want and bring in are not found at any lfs locally or wild order from indo.

problem is i cant buy them in colonie size and if i could it would cost $$$$$$ , most of the polyps i buy now adays have a price tag of $50-$400 per polyp and for alot of them im lucky if the seller will part with more than one lol

so at $150 for one polyp you can better believe when it hits 4-6 polyps that sucker is getting fragged and im getting some money back before i lose the piece.

im responsible for bringing in alot of the designer zoas that are even available in canada.....someones got to be that guy right lol so i take the risk, pay the price , play the patience game and sell a polyp , and then move on to my next fix lol



and because everyone likes pictures :P

fresh new arrivals that i had to beg to even be able to buy, came from the states so the money may not be local but a lfs somewhere got paid lol


http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t599/conceptaquariums_denny/dennys%20frags/b0a05094-3304-44aa-bb7a-9033433ac4c9_zps293fb215.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/conceptaquariums_denny/media/dennys%20frags/b0a05094-3304-44aa-bb7a-9033433ac4c9_zps293fb215.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t599/conceptaquariums_denny/dennys%20frags/5e82be6e-e454-4402-bdb9-b8c144d3c52a_zps904686bd.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/conceptaquariums_denny/media/dennys%20frags/5e82be6e-e454-4402-bdb9-b8c144d3c52a_zps904686bd.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t599/conceptaquariums_denny/dennys%20frags/3c44bba3-a5d3-4b02-8e61-3bf0073bd874_zpsfca2866d.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/conceptaquariums_denny/media/dennys%20frags/3c44bba3-a5d3-4b02-8e61-3bf0073bd874_zpsfca2866d.jpg.html)

please dont pm me asking for retailers in the states for zoanthids lol

[Aquattro]

please dont pm me asking for retailers in the states for zoanthids lol

PM'ed

[hillegom]

You are so bad Brad

[reefwars]

You are so bad Brad

And he did too lol

[gregzz4]

I've noticed it lately too, where there seems to be a number of posts by a small amount of members selling many frags/corals - and the members appear to have small/new tanks, therefore I can only assume they are flipping corals

So I understand where the OP is coming from

Just my $0.05

[toytech]

Ive had someone buy multiple frags off me just to resell .Because I was selling them at a reasonable price the reseller could jack up the price then resell at a big $profit. it ticked me off , I was trying to spread the wealth as it was and it was and it was a bunch of zoas I had grown from a few polyps to a huge colony and had to frag because I was moving . It robs other people from enjoying this hobby at a reasonable price and that's wrong .

[Aquattro]

Reporting these things to me has surprisingly good and quick results :) Just sayin'

[MarkoD]

Profit means you make more money then you spend. It's impossible to profit as a hobbiest in this hobby. Period

[darkreef]

i don't see the problem with it i just wouldnt buy it hehehe.

only thing that bothers me is when a nice shipment comes in and one person with a big wallet buys all the nice ones in seconds. share the beauty :)

but that doesn't even bother me im just jelouse because im not a fast buyer i like to do research before i get something

[gregzz4]

Reporting these things to me has surprisingly good and quick results :) Just sayin'
The member I would have pointed out to you seems to have magically vanished
I can't find them no matter how hard I search through the members list

[FishingGoalie]

i don't see the problem with it i just wouldnt buy it hehehe.

only thing that bothers me is when a nice shipment comes in and one person with a big wallet buys all the nice ones in seconds. share the beauty :)

but that doesn't even bother me im just jelouse because im not a fast buyer i like to do research before i get something

I both agree and disagree with this. I have gone to concept many times looking for something that they post pictures of the day before and its already gone because thats just how it works the nicest pieces are going to go the fastest. But this past week i definitely didnt waste my time as soon as i saw they got an order i didn't want my favourite gold torch to be gone before i got there, so I was so desperate i got my neighbour to take me Lol. So I was that guy that took the nice pieces.( very hesitant because i would have no more money until june 20th so I bought them. Im glad I did because who knows when ill be able to find a Red and Blue clam again. I do bit myself in the but though sometimes for not doing research so i completely agree with you on that part. :D:mrgreen::biggrin::lol:

[FishingGoalie]

I both agree and disagree with this. I have gone to concept many times looking for something that they post pictures of the day before and its already gone because thats just how it works the nicest pieces are going to go the fastest. But this past week i definitely didnt waste my time as soon as i saw they got an order i didn't want my favourite gold torch to be gone before i got there, so I was so desperate i got my neighbour to take me Lol. So I was that guy that took the nice pieces.( very hesitant because i would have no more money until june 20th so I bought them. Im glad I did because who knows when ill be able to find a Red and Blue clam again. I do bit myself in the but though sometimes for not doing research so i completely agree with you on that part. :D:mrgreen::biggrin::lol:

I hope that didn't sound rude because it definitely wasn't meant to be

[Slyguy00]

It isn't any different than certain local stores around here buying frags off people off the forum cheap and selling them in store for 10x what the paid. Iv seen this happen several times.

[reefermadness]

Interesting thread.

Personally I will agree with those that think if you are buying and selling for the purpose of profit you are not hobbyist but a business.

I also find this thread interesting for the fact that I just sold all my coral. It was a long process (we are talking thousands of dollars). I had an unbelievable amount of corals for a hobbyist but I never once purchased a frag or colony for the sole purpose of profit. The large majority of my corals were purchased as frags and grown out. This takes the kind of time, resources and care that most businesses cant spare to waste. As a hobbyist though this is the best way to get your money back out of the hobby. I by far did the best on the small rare and/or beautiful (most times aquarium cultured) frags I would buy. In a few years (more or less) they are grown out and you can usually frag them many times to make back investments in the hobby. Of course this takes skill and patience. Much better than the few wild LPS colonies I would buy that do not grow. Nice corals are expensive and even though Jay (reefraft) would seem to give me decent prices (comparitively) if the coral wouldnt grow it would be a money loser in the end for sure. Another thing with selling grown out corals is you are not pushing chop shop corals which have a poorer track record.

Anyway you would'nt believe the growth you can get on some of these corals (certain SPS especially). The growth is nealy exponetial as they grow. So with a large system stuffed to the brink with mature corals I personally was not up to the task of selling all the frags. Thankfully Tony and Long wanted to make a business out of it. They are good guys and we both did well with our partnership. I wholesaled out my frags (till they were ready to buy the mother colonies). Less work for me and these young buck entrepreneurs can make a buck too. They are a registered tax paying business (and sponsor of canreef) as well cause Im sure some eye brows would have been raised had I tried to sell all my wares in the classifieds.

Currently coral free
D.V.

[Aquattro]

Im sure some eye brows would have been raised had I tried to sell all my wares in the classifieds.



I don't think so. They're yours, you grew them from babies and were shutting down. I would see no problem with that. Likely easier to do what you did, as selling single frags to empty a tank would take some effort!

[reefermadness]

I don't think so. They're yours, you grew them from babies and were shutting down. I would see no problem with that. Likely easier to do what you did, as selling single frags to empty a tank would take some effort!Well Im happy either way cause it was way to much work and in the end it was far from full tank to single frags even (like I said a crazy amount of coral). We dwiddled them down some but MJC still got the mother colonies. Hopefully they can keep them nice and growing.

[Aquattro]

Yup, it's a lot of work. I have a wait list for all my frags, as I can't sell the bases.
And, I have to dip and inspect under the scope each frag for each buyer. Not looking forward to it :)

[paddyob]

Here's the deal with this. The selling of frags on the site is approved ONLY for frags you've raised and trimmed to make room in your tank. You own the colony and trim it, or you are parting with something no longer wanted.

Any poster that is verified, or close enough for my satisfaction, as selling any items for the sole intent of profit from resale, will be removed.

I'm also really annoyed at members making fake accounts to post an opinion. If you have one, post it. Don't hide. I'm reviewing and will possibly ban all IPs related to this fake ID.

Agree.

This thread almost put me to sleep. Who cares. If you sell to somebody and they resell, it's theirs to sell. Stop complaining you never asked enough.

That's life. You could ask more.

I get tired if jacked retail prices and will gladly buy from a closet shop if he has good pieces. Even if he makes a profit.

If you frag your $25 sps ten times... You just made profit.

So everybody who frags makes "profit"

If you don't like the price. Don't buy. Somebody else will.

[reefermadness]

If you frag your $25 sps ten times... You just made profit.

So everybody who frags makes "profit"
Well thats not true at all. Profit comes at the end of all expenses. If your selling frags of corals you spent years growing (ie. your a hobbyist), profit is pretty imaginary. Not only do you have ongoing costs of running a system (ie. electical, salt, GFO, carbon, RO filters etc) you have your captiol expense of equipment. And lets not even mention your time. Cause if you are keeping track of profit your time should be considered an expense.

I totally wish I could see every dollar I spent and made in this hobby. If anyone "hobbyist" could come close to breaking even or "profiting" it would be someone like me with a large system and a dizzying amount of coral. Even so I think I would be short. Especially considering my large successful tank came after 2 other failures (previous tanks).

[lastlight]

Nobody ever does :)

But there are other ways. I've identified this person by something other than IP.

bad grammar or digital lisp?

[Aquattro]

bad grammar or digital lisp?

Can't tell you. You'll abuse the knowledge. :razz:

[reefwars]

Well thats not true at all. Profit comes at the end of all expenses. If your selling frags of corals you spent years growing (ie. your a hobbyist), profit is pretty imaginary. Not only do you have ongoing costs of running a system (ie. electical, salt, GFO, carbon, RO filters etc) you have your captiol expense of equipment. And lets not even mention your time. Cause if you are keeping track of profit your time should be considered an expense.

I totally wish I could see every dollar I spent and made in this hobby. If anyone "hobbyist" could come close to breaking even or "profiting" it would be someone like me with a large system and a dizzying amount of coral. Even so I think I would be short. Especially considering my large successful tank came after 2 other failures (previous tanks).



yeah im pretty sure my montly expense on corals exceeds what i bring back in frags ten times over alot of the times , there is profit for some things but overall theres more going in then coming back out, its not so much the needing to make a buck but the not having to spend my whole paycheck time and time again to buy corals, sure cheaper corals would help but my taste is my worst enemy lol

last month i am into corals for almost $3,000 ive probably sold $200 worth of frags lol i think most months is like this and i tell myself im sure ill break even as time goes by but i dont i just keep hoarding more coral lol im not perfect so i do lose corals from time to time and sometimes its a big hit.

if it werent for the many morphs out there i probably would have stoppped long ago but theres still a ton i want and cant really afford in the grand scheme of things so fragging what i do have helps compensate for those costs.

i do try to grow all polyps that get fragged but its not always possible so i try to get some back while i can, after so long of doing this thoughi endd up with such a large amount of frags that te need to chop stuff right away dissapeared and i think this is where new people are , theres only a few types in the tank so one is left to frag what they have and more often than not to justify buying a favia at $150 they will say well maybe ill cut half and sell it and keep the other half.

in my last three orders from sponsors here on canreef i havent been charged taxes , receipts and these are household businesses, nothing wrong with that and its not a new thing but the times are a changing and people learn the ropes as they mature in their journey:)

darryl i agree with the aquacultured vs wild statement , seems results are much better for the stuff thats going around and raised in aquariums , i rarely buy wild fresh off the boat unless its mind blowing , i muts have bought a dozen wild darth maul colonies overe the years just to have them mely yet my one polyp aquacultured frag has grown and lasted a long time.

[reefermadness]

in my last three orders from sponsors here on canreef i havent been charged taxes , receipts and these are household businesses, nothing wrong with that and its not a new thing but the times are a changing and people learn the ropes as they mature in their journey
Out of probably half a dozen LFS I visit in the area only one charges tax. I can only assume that the rest are paying taxes that are built into the cost. I also assume that there are some questionable tax procedures for these businesses (that happens in all sectors) and even more so if its a home business. Ie. everyone loves a write off but no one likes to pay taxes.

last month i am into corals for almost $3,000 ive probably sold $200 worth of frags lol i think most months is like this and i tell myself im sure ill break even as time goes by but i dont i just keep hoarding more coral lol im not perfect so i do lose corals from time to time and sometimes its a big hit.

I remember those times. Its a lot of money and I always told my self and others that you have to be prepared to loss it all. Its a risk, addiction, maybe similar to gambling? haha

I'm a recovered coralaholic so please to make me relapse. haha

[reefwars]

Out of probably half a dozen LFS I visit in the area only one charges tax. I can only assume that the rest are paying taxes that are built into the cost. I also assume that there are some questionable tax procedures for these businesses (that happens in all sectors) and even more so if its a home business. Ie. everyone loves a write off but no one likes to pay taxes.

I remember those times. Its a lot of money and I always told my self and others that you have to be prepared to loss it all. Its a risk, addiction, maybe similar to gambling? haha

I'm a recovered coralaholic so please to make me relapse. haha

lol yeah i cant get away from it its addictive and right now its the most fun ive had in the hobby in all the years ive done it ,the collecting..hoarding and hell im even sentimental on some pieces lol i read on RC you were shutting down and i said to myself , he will be back...and you will ;P

[lpsreefer]

I like butterflies.

[reefermadness]

I like butterflies.That explains a lot. Thanks

[acepumping]

Put it this way. I don't do it to make money, I do it for the hobby and also to pay for the cost of hobby. No profiting and I trim my colonies.. very expensive.. for example. I'm in a townhouse, my hydro was 350 for the last 2 months. Vs 170 without tanks..
Plus I'm a hoarder.. I fully understand that if your doing it for business, then register..i have over 20k worth of equipment and corals.. I know I will never see the money again which is expected in a hobby.. but it is nice to get a bit of help.. i ran for 3 years without selling a piece of coral.

And don't get me started on dead fish and corals I have lost..
Face it vendors are vendors, hobbyist are hobbyist..

[acepumping]

Ask my credit card how sore his stripe on his back is lately lol..
:)
I've got 500 gallons in my house.. had a minor crash in my 200gal display. Lost 3k worth of corals... what did I do? Restocked and now getting them healthy before I put it back into my tank..

have a good day guys. This thread is boring haha

[Slyguy00]

I find it pretty entertaining that one ignorant person can stir up so much s**t. Its never been an issue until one person says something. And odds are it was probably that clown that just left the forum. If you dont like it don't buy it

[albert_dao]

I find it pretty entertaining that one ignorant person can stir up so much s**t. Its never been an issue until one person says something. And odds are it was probably that clown that just left the forum. If you dont like it don't buy it

Oh come now, why else would we ever hit refresh? I think controversy and heated debate is awesome for keeping eyes glued to the board. Not sure why it's so frowned upon :D

On that note, who's the smurf?

[Slyguy00]

Oh come now, why else would we ever hit refresh? I think controversy and heated debate is awesome for keeping eyes glued to the board. Not sure why it's so frowned upon :D

On that note, who's the smurf?

totally agree with you albert. I don't frown upon it at all :mrgreen:

[Aquattro]

And odds are it was probably that clown that just left the forum.

Nope, wasn't him. It's someone you're probably friends with :)

[albert_dao]

And odds are it was probably that clown that just left the forum.

Nope, wasn't him. It's someone you're probably friends with :)

<___< It's not me! I swear!

[Slyguy00]

Nope, wasn't him. It's someone you're probably friends with :)

Didnt see that coming lol. But I have a hard time believing that

[cav~firez22]

This is entertaining :)

[Aquattro]

Didnt see that coming lol. But I have a hard time believing that

I know who it is, I've talked to him about it and he won't do it again. But he's an active member that wanted to post an opinion without backlash.

[neoh]

the capitalist agenda..

you should see my P&L statement for this hobby. If I could register and consider corals as inventory and claim amortization based on coral loss and fish, plus the cost of supplies, I would be a laughing stock.

But hey, my corals are pretty.

[acepumping]

Didnt see that coming lol. But I have a hard time believing that



FULLY AGREE!!!!!!!!
if you don't like the hobby and don't like the cost and certainly find yourself complaining alot.. then get out of it..


IMO

[acepumping]

I know who it is, I've talked to him about it and he won't do it again. But he's an active member that wanted to post an opinion without backlash.

LOL BRAD, cmon, hang him out to dry !!!!
Lol ;) you better be coming to next swap.. we should all do a mod fund to get their a$$ out here haha

[canadianbudz604]

Wow.... The guys that buy huge colonies for say $100 and break it up into say 20 frags @ $10 a piece aren't making much of a profit AND it's the only way a lot of us get corals.... What's the problem?

[trilinearmipmap]

1. Laissez-faire

2. The knowledge which is freely given on these boards is more valuable than the corals we try to charge each other for

3. I would be inclined to start a coral bank, ie. established hobbyists can have a frag of whatever coral for zero, in return if my tank crashes you give me a frag back to restock. Kind of like insurance

4. It is a collegial hobby until money gets involved

Incidentally I'm sitting near a tank with 6 BTA's, bought one BTA from Samw something like 8 or 10 years ago, if I sold 5 of them for the original purchase price I guess I earned 25 bucks per year. Woohoo!


Just my view.

[albert_dao]

Okay let me pose this question:

At which point does it become profiteering? Is it when the $$$ earned extends beyond the original value of the coral? Is it when the sale price is inflated to market value? Is it when a coral is parted out to recover costs? Etc, etc, etc... Seems pretty gray to me.

[Slyguy00]

I know who it is, I've talked to him about it and he won't do it again. But he's an active member that wanted to post an opinion without backlash.

Come on, so now were able to have a big mouth and be a pussy? What is this world coming to. Id love to know who decided to hide there identity before making a post. Thats just a coward. Whoever it is should fess up so we can all tell him how we really feel. Just my opinion but thats about as pathetic as it gets

[Zoaelite]

Okay let me pose this question:

At which point does it become profiteering? Is it when the $$$ earned extends beyond the original value of the coral? Is it when the sale price is inflated to market value? Is it when a coral is parted out to recover costs? Etc, etc, etc... Seems pretty gray to me.

I would argue the line is crossed when you full well know your taking advantage of a fellow hobbyist.

Let me give you an example;

Seller A buys zoas that lack a specific trade name from LFS. They then proceed to name said coral themselves to improve its ability to sell (lets face it, named stuff goes for more EVERY time).

This seller then posts these zoas for sale, priced per polyp at $35 exclaiming what a major deal these are. He/she goes on to state that if you don't buy now the price will increase DOUBLE to $75 per polyp.

Seller A is pretty much saying these are 50% off at the moment indicating they are heavily reducing the price to be an AMAZING person and sell you some unreal coral a wicked deal!

Sadly Seller A probably bought that unnamed zoa rock from a local LFS at around $50, if all 10 polyps sell @ $35 then $300 profit has been made or 600% profit.

That is personally what I consider profiteering

[albert_dao]

I would argue the line is crossed when you full well know your taking advantage of a fellow hobbyist.

Let me give you an example;

Seller A buys zoas that lack a specific trade name from LFS. They then proceed to name said coral themselves to improve its ability to sell (lets face it, named stuff goes for more EVERY time).

This seller then posts these zoas for sale, priced per polyp at $35 exclaiming what a major deal these are. He/she goes on to state that if you don't buy now the price will increase DOUBLE to $75 per polyp.

Seller A is pretty much saying these are 50% off at the moment indicating they are heavily reducing the price to be an AMAZING person and sell you some unreal coral a wicked deal!

Sadly Seller A probably bought that unnamed zoa rock from a local LFS at around $50, if all 10 polyps sell @ $35 then $300 profit has been made or 600% profit.

That is personally what I consider profiteering

Hmm, while I don't necessarily agree with the ethics of your example, I also don't think that's a strong case against profiteering. Where do you draw the line? 100%? 200%? When someone goes from being 'dude in a basement' to 'dude in a basement with a business license"? What if we extended that last frame to 'dude who has a storefront'?

Take Steve Tyree for example. All strikes against him, and I may be going out on a limb here, but that guy REVOLUTIONIZED the reef hobby. His 'LE' gimmick reinvigorated the entire coral scene well beyond "OMG, Fiji Aquaculture is so dope!" (and trust me, this was the state of the hobby circa 1999-2003). And he did it straight off the back of your example. I'd argue that this sort of, let's call it entrepreneurial, spirit is exactly what keeps the hobby healthy. Eagle eyed hobbyist spots a gem at LFS, sensationalizes it and drives a frenzy, creating a secondary market. I see no harm in this. The coral has already proven its worth to the original benefactor (the LFS that sold it at their expected markup) and now there is a new and unique strain of coral that will be hosted and propagated by steadily increasing numbers of hobbyist. Fast forward six months and the market value of the coral will steadily decline as supply exceeds demand. For most people, getting a nice coral isn't a matter of having money on hand, but patience.

Anyway, about to flood a tank, I'll be back to stir this up more in case y'all want to continue the dialogue.

[rickcasa]

This takes me back to when I was collecting hockey cards when I was a kid in the 80s. Need 'em, got 'em, need 'em. I traded and collected some of the best...but alas I didn't retire at 14 because my mom accidentally threw them out with the trash.:twised::twised:
Anyhoo, deep down, most of us are just collectors wanting the newest prettiest thang, an addiction that we must sustain by selling something else. We can all agree there's no problem with that. Even if one profits, it all evens up in the end with expenses - equipment upgrades/losses/unsold inventory.
And for those who are in it solely for profit, avoid the public shaming and just get a business license (cost you 2 frags), there you're legit...and get paid in cash so you can pursue another hobby, advanced creative accounting.

[canadianbudz604]

Zoaelite, that's right, but you don't run across people like
That very often. I've been on this forum for a couple years and I usually buy corals off the same few people. Maybe they make 5$ or something off me but just in their time alone doesn't make them a profit. But sometimes there is a few people that find a really good deal and take advantage of it. But we wouldn't get a frag of that coral unless they were selling it.

[Coral Hoarder]

Lol I love this thread a coral is worth what some one will pay
If you don't sell a palys or ZOA say rastas or Darth maul at 30-50 pp the market gets kiled and every ones are worthless so if some one gets a bunch on a rock and sells them for 100 pp if that's what the online price is I don't see the problem they got lucky lol ?

[Aquattro]

Lots of different views and points in this thread. And still not locked. That in itself is pretty good.
So let's recap. Selling something to make a bit of money back to feed hobby=good.
Selling parts of large piece you bought to recoup some of the cost=good.

How we doin' so far?

Selling off entire contents of tank because you're done=good. Got it.

Selling excess growth that happens to buy the next few buckets of salt=good.

Buying $200 frag, growing said frag and selling multiple frags for $200=good.

I'm on a roll

Buying a cool coral at store and chopping into pieces to flip a profit, repeatedly=bad

Having a coral farm in your basement to pay mortgage=good

Am I on track here?

I have to pretty much agree with all of the above. Where it gets grey, from a Canreef standpoint, is which of the above conflicts with the interest of paying sponsors (those are the greedy LFS bastards we've read so much about).
My job is to sort through the grey area and determine if/when and who is meeting this criteria. We went from a almost no frag sales policy to our current one, which somewhat conflicts with sponsors, but is overall beneficial to members and the hobby in general.
If I feel someone is jeopardizing our income/potential income, therefore the fate of the board, I need to step in and disallow such sales. That's the board way.
Other than that, if you can make a buck, not screw someone and everybody goes home happy, have at 'er!

[denny_C]

Lots of different views and points in this thread. And still not locked. That in itself is pretty good.
So let's recap. Selling something to make a bit of money back to feed hobby=good.
Selling parts of large piece you bought to recoup some of the cost=good.

How we doin' so far?

Selling off entire contents of tank because you're done=good. Got it.

Selling excess growth that happens to buy the next few buckets of salt=good.

Buying $200 frag, growing said frag and selling multiple frags for $200=good.

I'm on a roll

Buying a cool coral at store and chopping into pieces to flip a profit, repeatedly=bad

Having a coral farm in your basement to pay mortgage=good

Am I on track here?

I have to pretty much agree with all of the above. Where it gets grey, from a Canreef standpoint, is which of the above conflicts with the interest of paying sponsors (those are the greedy LFS bastards we've read so much about).
My job is to sort through the grey area and determine if/when and who is meeting this criteria. We went from a almost no frag sales policy to our current one, which somewhat conflicts with sponsors, but is overall beneficial to members and the hobby in general.
If I feel someone is jeopardizing our income/potential income, therefore the fate of the board, I need to step in and disallow such sales. That's the board way.
Other than that, if you can make a buck, not screw someone and everybody goes home happy, have at 'er!

well said brad and i even had a good laugh lol

[Coral Hoarder]

Lots of different views and points in this thread. And still not locked. That in itself is pretty good.
So let's recap. Selling something to make a bit of money back to feed hobby=good.
Selling parts of large piece you bought to recoup some of the cost=good.

How we doin' so far?

Selling off entire contents of tank because you're done=good. Got it.

Selling excess growth that happens to buy the next few buckets of salt=good.

Buying $200 frag, growing said frag and selling multiple frags for $200=good.

I'm on a roll

Buying a cool coral at store and chopping into pieces to flip a profit, repeatedly=bad

Having a coral farm in your basement to pay mortgage=good

Am I on track here?

I have to pretty much agree with all of the above. Where it gets grey, from a Canreef standpoint, is which of the above conflicts with the interest of paying sponsors (those are the greedy LFS bastards we've read so much about).
My job is to sort through the grey area and determine if/when and who is meeting this criteria. We went from a almost no frag sales policy to our current one, which somewhat conflicts with sponsors, but is overall beneficial to members and the hobby in general.
If I feel someone is jeopardizing our income/potential income, therefore the fate of the board, I need to step in and disallow such sales. That's the board way.
Other than that, if you can make a buck, not screw someone and everybody goes home happy, have at 'er!

Lmao I like this

[MarkoD]

I don't understand the issue.

I use to buy tanks from people for the price they were asking.

I'd bring it home, clean it, repaint the stand and then sell it for more.

The person buying has the option to buy mine or any others on kijiji.

What's wrong with flipping things for money?

There's a tv show about how people do this with antiques now, why would that be any different?

[Coral Hoarder]

Its frowned upon Ias its considered riping some one off
But if there willing to pay then that's what its worth

[albert_dao]

Its frowned upon Ias its considered riping some one off
But if there willing to pay then that's what its worth

You're hardly ripping someone off given that you've invested your time and effort into finding and housing the coral, which assumes some small amount of risk unto itself. Maybe the coral dies, spread parasites/disease to your system, doesn't sell, maybe you get hit in traffic on your way to or from the LFS, etc, etc. Time is not free :)

For the record, I've never done this, but I have friends that do and I see zero issue with it. But that's just IMO.

*(truth be told, I feel as though I SHOULD be doing this... I too have a mortgage to pay).

[Aquattro]

What's wrong with flipping things for money?

Absolutely nothing. I've done the same thing. But from a purist hobbyist standpoint, roaming the LFS for things to chop and make money goes against the grain. I wouldn't do it, but not saying you shouldn't. Just not what I would consider "hobby friendly". This is, of course, only my opinion.

I have a dual role. I have to manage a board with advertisers that are directly competing with their customers, and I'm a hobbyist with less interest in making "profit" from the hobby than I used to have.

Not saying it's bad, some of my good friends do it. I know some guys chopping up acans right now to sell single heads. Good for them, I guess. They just can't do it here (I'm watching, guys :)).

Let's face it, nobody is going to get rich selling frags. The sheer cost of supporting things and the likelihood of failure is overwhelming. Ya, some people get away with it for a little while, but "profit" is an over-rated term :)

[Samw]

Incidentally I'm sitting near a tank with 6 BTA's, bought one BTA from Samw something like 8 or 10 years ago, if I sold 5 of them for the original purchase price I guess I earned 25 bucks per year. Woohoo!



Nice. You got a clone from the very first RBTA on Canreef as far as I know. :) Since I had a crash last year, my RBTA has shrunk and I was going to post a msg asking to see if someone had a clone of mine from over the years for sale as it has sentimental value. LOL. There should be hundreds of my clones out there now over the 10-12 years. :)

Ever come down to Vancouver? :)

[Aquattro]

You're hardly ripping someone off given that you've invested your time and effort into finding and housing the coral

Even if you don't own a tank and have a mobile chopping bin, you're not really ripping anyone off (unless you sell some tourist green milli for a grand). If you buy a $60 colony and make $50 on chopping it, not a lot of ripping off involved. I don't agree that anyone needs to pass on a good deal they got to someone they're selling to. Money is nice, make what you can. But be cognizant of the effect on the hobby, the market and potential future friendships. Find balance, be happy, make a couple bucks, grow some coral.

[michika]

Here Brad, you dropped this; p.

[Coral Hoarder]

You're hardly ripping someone off given that you've invested your time and effort into finding and housing the coral, which assumes some small amount of risk unto itself. Maybe the coral dies, spread parasites/disease to your system, doesn't sell, maybe you get hit in traffic on your way to or from the LFS, etc, etc. Time is not free :)

For the record, I've never done this, but I have friends that do and I see zero issue with it. But that's just IMO.

*(truth be told, I feel as though I SHOULD be doing this... I too have a mortgage to pay).

Totally agree ripping someone off - selling s frag for more then you paid for the colony

[Aquattro]

Here Brad, you dropped this; p.

How embarrassing..:razz:

[Aquattro]

One of my first "profit" deals in the hobby.

Desperate woman calls and needs to move next day. Wants to sell me the full system she has. I have little money. She says whatever I have in my pocket. I have 187bucks. I buy system, 120g tank, large oak stand/canopy, sump, 200# live rock, fish, gear, etc. I made $1500 after selling the parts. Proud moment for me in the hobby.

My last "profit" deal.

Bought a local setup for $400. Tall 115g tank, meh stand, 80 pounds rock and a huge puffer fish. Takes me hours to tear it down and load the van. Drive to the LFS to give him my scraps. It's his Bday, his favorite fish is this puffer. I give him the fish. Had nowhere to store rock, gave it all away. Find out the tank at a locla school just broke and the kids are sad. I donate tank and stand. After I clean it. I'm into this for days now. Lots of gas.
After all is said and done, I'm out nearly $500 and a couple days worth of time. I own the heater still. Not sure it works.
Kids loved the tank. Another proud moment in the hobby.

Did I rip anyone off in either scenario? I don't think so. Everyone was happy, there was some money made, some money lost, some lives made better. Isn't that what it's all about?

I would like more money though...

[albert_dao]

Totally agree ripping someone off - selling s frag for more then you paid for the colony

Huh? Okay, let me paint a scenario for you:

You go to a store, they have a colony of "Freaking Ultra Cornbread Kickstarter Eagle Rage Superman" Palys. Owner of the store doesn't know/doesn't care what it is as long as he gets his $75.00.

You buy said coral, realizing that its market value is $150/pp.

Do you:

A. Sell the Palys for the $5/pp that it works out to, tanking not only the value of the coral, but immediately devaluing the collections of anyone who purchased these Palys at market value?

B. Sell for market value and pat yourself on the back for being at the right place at the right time.

C. Do the manly thing and leave it at the store to let someone more pious to sort out.

I mean.. Look at it this way, Lottery winners pay a couple bucks for their tickets...

[Coral Hoarder]

Huh? Okay, let me paint a scenario for you:

You go to a store, they have a colony of "Freaking Ultra Cornbread Kickstarter Eagle Rage Superman" Palys. Owner of the store doesn't know/doesn't care what it is as long as he gets his $75.00.

You buy said coral, realizing that its market value is $150/pp.

Do you:

A. Sell the Palys for the $5/pp that it works out to, tanking not only the value of the coral, but immediately devaluing the collections of anyone who purchased these Palys at market value?

B. Sell for market value and pat yourself on the back for being at the right place at the right time.

C. Do the manly thing and leave it at the store to let someone more pious to sort out.

I mean.. Look at it this way, Lottery winners pay a couple bucks for their tickets...


Option b would be my pic this is the exception to the rule its kind of a dick move to sell something sat 5 pp when others have to pay 150

[Aquattro]

I'm taking option B as well.

[Coral Hoarder]

So option b is alowd on canreef ?

[albert_dao]

Option b would be my pic this is the exception to the rule its kind of a dick move to sell something sat 5 pp when others have to pay 150

Ergo, though it is subjective, selling frags for more than what you paid for the coral can be warranted without being branded as a "rip off".

[albert_dao]

So option b is alowd on canreef ?

Make it easy on yourself, buy said coral from a sponsor.

[Coral Hoarder]

Ergo, though it is subjective, selling frags for more than what you paid for the coral can be warranted without being branded as a "rip off".

Very true

And referring to your last post there's no way I'm spending more then 40$ on a polyp of ZOA or paly but if there s a colony of nice ones for 75 I'm all over it

[albert_dao]

Very true

And referring to your last post there's no way I'm spending more then 40$ on a polyp of ZOA or paly but if there s a colony of nice ones for 75 I'm all over it

Hey, I can't afford a Ferrari. But other people can. It's by no means my right to call foul on that. I'm not entitled to a premium car anymore than people who aren't willing to spend the big bucks are entitled to big buck corals :)

[Coral Hoarder]

What was the point of that post thought it was ovyus

[Slyguy00]

I think everybodies points have been made. This thread is getting played out.

[albert_dao]

What was the point of that post thought it was ovyus

I am trying to point out the inanity behind this witch hunt.

You, yourself declared that you are unwilling to spend x$'s on a coral. You were also the first to pitch the "don't sell corals for more than what you paid for it" card. If my comments seem unwarranted, it's because you are looking at the comment, and not the context.

[albert_dao]

I think everybodies points have been made. This thread is getting played out.

Awww, but Dad, I don't have school tomorrow and Timmy's mom is letting us have a sleepover!

[jorjef]

Awww, but Dad, I don't have school tomorrow and Timmy's mom is letting us have a sleepover!

Gold I say GOLD.

[WarDog]

Personally I wouldn't gouge anyone. If I bought Darth Mauls at $100 pp, then grew them out and fragged, I would sell them at the same price.

Like Brad says, if everyone walks away happy, then who cares?

Anybody got some Darth maul frags?

[Coral Hoarder]

I am trying to point out the inanity behind this witch hunt.

You, yourself declared that you are unwilling to spend x$'s on a coral. You were also the first to pitch the "don't sell corals for more than what you paid for it" card. If my comments seem unwarranted, it's because you are looking at the comment, and not the context.

I agreed with you and your still posting now your arguing with a kid
My point was if you buy a mushroom rock and sell them for 30$ each to beginners who don't know prices your an ass hole I'm not saying dont Sella designer paly for what its worth

There's so many what its with you I mean what if space men invaded the earth

[albert_dao]

WTF are we talking about?

[Slyguy00]

HAHAHAHAHA:lol: This just keeps getting better

[NIVLEM09]

:popcorn:

[Coral Hoarder]

I was talking about how there's over pricing and riping off and a good feel and how there two difrent things

But because of personality type you had to point out the obvous saying a nice paly is the exception I thought that was obvous but no

[Slyguy00]

Dude ovyus is spelt obvious lol

[Coral Hoarder]

Thanks corrected

[spit.fire]

Still not right

[Slyguy00]

lol

[Aquattro]

So option b is alowd on canreef ?

Well, no. But ya, kinda. Don't abuse it. Mostly. Clear? lol

[Coral Hoarder]

O well if a mod was so kind that would be awesome

[Aquattro]

O well if a mod was so kind that would be awesome

mods have no idea what you're talking about

[Coral Hoarder]

My spelling :)

[monza]

I bought some fish. Let's do it again with fish.

[spit.fire]

mods have no idea what you're talking about


I thought it was pretty obvous

[reefwars]

mods have no idea what you're talking about

I just fell off my chair laughing lol

[Coral Hoarder]

I thought it was pretty obvous

Don't see the point of making fun of me publickly cause we don't get along.

And guys I have written out put disorder its a real learning disability so I'd be great full if I didn't get poked fun of for his spelling a word I tryed to corect

Way to go on creating a hostile environment on canreef thought we were free to share opinions

[reefwars]

Best first profit buy: bought a full 180g reef for $200 maybe 6-8 yrs agooff a guy moving back to the phillapines , kept the corals which was all I wanted and sold the remainder , even at dirt cheap I still doubled my money , was an unintentional profit but everyone was happy.

Worst profit buy: figured I'd buy a bunch of rainbow chalices to grow out at $200 a piece , then realized I can't keep rainbow chalices lol all slowly withered away and couldn't give them away , who wants a peachcy greeny/yellowy chalice anyways lol I still have these if anyone wants some lol prob free at this point

I've had people come here from out of town and buy zoos and tell me they are wanting to sell them back home , at the end of the day it's their money and as long as they are happy wi their buy and aren't breaking into my house to steal them or holding up someone at tankpoint hell I'm happy too.

[reefwars]

Don't see the point of making fun of me publickly cause we don't get along.

And guys I have written out put disorder its a real learning disability so I'd be great full if I didn't get poked fun of for his spelling a word I tryed to corect

Way to go on creating a hostile environment on canreef thought we were free to share opinions

Relax my friend were all just having fun no ones making fun of anyone but having a good laugh as friends , forums make it hard to see the fun in it:) dude I'm from Newfoundland trust me auto correct is my friend if you met me you would probably laugh lol

Cheers

[Coral Hoarder]

Haha yes its when people that i have personal issues with do it that bothers me

[reefwars]

Haha yes its when people that i have personal issues with do it that bothers me

I have personal issues with everyone , I generally dislike people as a whole period lol especially pre-coffee lol

[Coral Hoarder]

Not with you! haha haven't even met you besides the forms you seem like a stand up guy

[reefwars]

Not with you! haha haven't even met you besides the forms you seem like a stand up guy

Can I get that in writing for the wife please lol she says I'm a jerk

[Coral Hoarder]

Lmao !!!!!!!

[spit.fire]

you having a personal issue with me doesnt change the fact that im joking around, think whatever you want, i would poke fun at anyone for that, dont care who they are, and ya im pretty much in the same boat as you denny

[Coral Hoarder]

you having a personal issue with me doesnt change the fact that im joking around, think whatever you want, i would poke fun at anyone for that, dont care who they are, and ya im pretty much in the same boat as you denny

And I live on the moon and eat strictly dirt

[Slyguy00]

Dude how do you live on the moon and have a reef tank???? Sounds epic, id think about that diet of yours though :wink:

[spit.fire]

Dude how do you live on the moon and have a reef tank???? Sounds epic, id think about that diet of yours though :wink:

technically, if the moon is made of cheese, and he eats moon dirt, he's technically eating cheese, therefore its still a weird diet

[Slyguy00]

hahah man this forum has gone off the deep end lately:twised:

[spit.fire]

hahah man this forum has gone off the deep end lately:twised:

i thought it was just me since i started drinking again

[Slyguy00]

By the sounds of it your not the only one lol:lol:

[Coral Hoarder]

Eh I make it work

[Bill@IA]

Buying something and selling half, or selling something you find you regret buying is fine. It's the bulk buying/growing for profit that isn't allowed. We let a lot of grey areas slide, but people that have a 20g tank, and a 200g frag system in the basement are considered commercial.
We strive to maintain the spirit of hobbyist sharing and supplementing some of the costs of the hobby, but if you're pulling in $800/mo regularly, you're a business!

LOL…. we definitely have seen the industry change. In the past we would have more customers looking for informative books on the hobby or how to prepare an isolation/quarantine set up. Now they come in with all this "knowledge", gathered in the two weeks they have been in the hobby, looking for ways to connect a frag tank to their starter kits or wondering if we have any old magnets they can strap pieces of egg crate to. :idea:

[Coral Hoarder]

LOL…. we definitely have seen the industry change. In the past we would have more customers looking for informative books on the hobby or how to prepare an isolation/quarantine set up. Now they come in with all this "knowledge", gathered in the two weeks they have been in the hobby, looking for ways to connect a frag tank to their starter kits or wondering if we have any old magnets they can strap pieces of egg crate to. :idea:
SAVE THE EARTH !!!!!!!! GROW FRAGS. LOL

[monza]

What about the magnets and egg crate? I don't know that trick.

[Coral Hoarder]

Make shift frag rack :0

[Aquattro]

the wife please lol she says I'm a jerk

I think they learn to say that at wife school.

[Aquattro]

Closing this now, go talk about aragonite with Albert. It's been fun.