Reef Tank - I can't win

[Antrias]

I'm looking to see if anyone has any advice for me in my current situation. I recently added some items to my Reef tank - which I have had running with corals, anenome, two tangs very successfully for about 9 months. I decided to get some more stuff a few weeks ago. I added an Elegence Coral (unsure of Aussie or Indi), Maxima Clam, Flame Angel and Leopard Wrasse. The stock all came frame the same tank from the store and I was told everything had been there for a long time (30+ days). Which was perfect because I needed stuff that could go straight into my tank or I didn't want it.

Well simply put I'm an idiot and should just not listen to what they say. The clam died 5 dies in - was 100% fine opening and looked amazing until i came home in the 5th and it was dead. 10th day Elegence coral tanked it and died. 12th day Flame Angel has 1-2 visible spots of ich. Leopard Wrasse looking great still. All the fish eat like beasts eating my garlic and Selcon enriched shrimp / Thera-A NLS pellets... ect

Basically I think I'm screwed. What should I do with my fish at this point? All my other fish have no visible ich but at best I can setup a 10g QT. Last time i tried to QT my last flame and do hypo salinity for my previous tank it just simply got 10x worse and died.

I was thinking of getting a UV Sterilizer but I read mixed things about those.

My tank seems to have great parameters

0 Nitrite
0 Nitrate
0 Ammonia
390MG cal
PH 8
Phosphate - I dont trust my test kit for phos - says 0
Salinity 1.26

I use Nitra-Guard so I always have perfect Nitrates .. I don't know what to do I'm afraid I just doomed all my fish to death by ich

[Aquattro]

Healthy fish don't normally die from ich. Feed them well, keep the water clean and make sure they aren't stressed.
In the future, a fish in the store for 30 days isn't free of ich. My tank has ich in it, I haven't seen a spot for a long time. Unless a fish has specifically been treated for ich in QT, it likely has it.

[craigwmiller]

Stress is stress unfortunately. happens to the best of us.

With the clam, was it very (very) carefully lifted from the substrate without any effort, or was it attached and was pulled at all with any force (even from the bag)?

Ich is something we all deal with - And the best defence once 1+ fish is showing visible white-spot symptoms in the tank is to ensure they are happy (eating well, and keep soaking their food in garlic). THEN -- don't stress them out! No more rapid changes, keep your hands out of the tank, don't spook them, no flashlights searching for spots while they are sleeping, etc... chill out (i'm often guilty of much of this)... A stressed fish is more susceptible to ich, and making a stressed fish more stressed is a recipe for disaster.

[sumpfinfishe]

A stressed fish is more susceptible to ich, and making a stressed fish more stressed is a recipe for disaster+1 solid advice!:biggrin:

[Antrias]

Thank guys for the advice I'll try not to freak out. I've just had bad experiences with ich however could be from my over acting to correct the breakouts. Should I not do another water change for a little while? Should I feed twice a day for a while?

As for the clam - A tang knocked it over one day but I didn't think much of it - that probably is what did it - tore it's foot.

[BackPackHunter]

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

^^^
This is a good read

For my next setup, I have 2 transfer tanks & QT tank
Before they will be going into the DT

[sumpfinfishe]

Your fish still need a healthy environment so I wouldn't stop the water changes. Water changes provide clean healthy water for the fish not to mention they help keep most of your parameters more stable.
As far as feeding goes, fish in the wild graze and hunt for food all day. You should be feeding your fish at least twice a day, but only enough that they consume 90% of it within a few minutes(2 minutes not 10 minutes). I feed my fish three times a day, a few shrimp pellets and a few algae wafers in the am while the lights are out, then two meals after work of frozen and flake. Soon I will even be getting an auto feeder so they will get a few more mid day snacks.

Just try to keep your hands out of the water for awhile or spooking the fish too much by other actions.

[Craigdillman]

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

^^^
This is a good read

For my next setup, I have 2 transfer tanks & QT tank
Before they will be going into the DT

I got a tank transfer set up all my fish go through it and prazipro i delt with ich once and never again its like 13 days and sooooo worth it cost maybe 100$ to set up and saves way more in fish

[Antrias]

What exactly is a transfer tank anyway?

[daplatapus]

The tank transfer method of QT for Ich is a systematic routine that catches the Cryptocaryon mid life cycle when it's no longer on your fish. While the parasite basically lives on your fish, it does not breed there. It drops off your fish roughly 3-4 days after hosting it to drop into the substrate and reproduce. One the original parasite multiplies, the many, many, many, offspring release into the water column to attach themselves to all your fish and start the cycle all over again. Multiplying many fold in the process.
So understanding the life cycle of the crytocaryon goes a long way to see how this method is probably the most gentle method on fish (IMHO)
So borrowing the info from RC, here's how to do it:
Firstly, you basically need 2 sets of everything for 2 tanks. They don't have to be all that big. I use a couple of 20 gal, Aquaclear 150's for some water movement (no filter), 2 heaters, 2 - 3" PVC elbows or T's, optional is 2 net's and maybe 2 MJ400's depending on the fish.

Day 1: set up 1 tank matching salinity, temp, ph etc to the water your fish are in currently
Monitor that tank carefully. Having a ammonia badge in the tank is very useful. Your fish will only be there for a couple days, not usually long enough for ammonia to develop to dangerous levels, but you need to watch just in case.

I usually set up my second tank on the eve of day 3 so it's set up for the next morning.

Day 4: in the AM, preferably before the lights come on over the tank, drain the first tank and discard all the water. I usually drain the tank down until only a few inches of water remains, scoop the fish up in my hands or a small bowl with holes that allows the majority of water to drain away, minimizing the chances of water borne parasites making it into the second tank. Put your fish in the second tank.
Finish draining the first tank. Clean EVERYTHING. I use a 10% bleach solution and let everything soak in it for an hour or 2. then rinse VERY well and let air dry.

Day 7: repeat the process

Day 10: repeat

Day 14: repeat and you're done. Continue to watch your fish for anything else it may have for a week or 2 depending on your QT philosophy and enjoy your healthy tank.

[Craigdillman]

As above here is another link describing it

http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/3daytransfer.html

[daplatapus]

I forgot to mention as well that this is why you'll see the recommendation of allowing an existing set up to go fallow for 6-8 weeks without any fish to makes sure all the cryptocryon cysts are dead from starvation before re-introduction of any fish back into the system.
As long as you have any fish that they can host on in the tank, you'll never get rid of it.

[asylumdown]

The tank transfer method of QT for Ich is a systematic routine that catches the Cryptocaryon mid life cycle when it's no longer on your fish.

+1 to this method. This is what I've done since I lost all my fish in November, 2012 and I dare say my tank is ich free. People are freaked out by this method because it involves handling the fish which seems stressful, but the scoop and transfer is over in 20 seconds. Comparatively, copper or hypo both expose fish to either a serious metabolic poison or chemistry far outside their optimal range for extended periods of time. Fish have evolved all sorts of physiological mechanisms to cope with the fight or flight response without it causing any long term harm, but hypo and copper both put tremendous sustained pressure on their kidneys and other organs. I've never had a fish not go back to behaving as if it never happened within an hour of the transfer. It's also guaranteed to work if you do it right, and takes 12 days as opposed to several weeks.

Downside is the labour involved. It's the most time consuming of the treatment protocols on your part, which really puts a curb on impulse purchases (a good thing for me...).

Only thing I do differently than daplatapus is that I don't bleach anything because I wrecked too many shirts cleaning my QT tanks. I have two complete sets of everything (two heaters, two power heads, two tanks, two sets of PVC pipes for decoration, two thermometers). After I thoroughly clean everything in just plain tap water I dry them with a hand towel and let them sit out like you would dishes. C. irritans tomonts (the encysted stage that's the most persistent and hardest to kill) can't survive drying out for more than 24 hours, so the three days in between a set of equipment being used should be more than enough to kill them.

[BackPackHunter]

With my transfer tanks , I had them drilled in the front , so draining is very easy
And just wet vac the rest out ....

[asylumdown]

With my transfer tanks , I had them drilled in the front , so draining is very easy
And just wet vac the rest out ....

Genius idea. In my dream build, my fish room would have built in tank transfer tanks with sloped bottoms and valved holes at the bottom for draining. I'd also have one of those hand held restaurant style kitchen sprayers installed so I could just leave the valve at the bottom open and hose out the tank.

[Antrias]

Yeah I really like the idea of these transfer tanks! You guys have given such great information! I think I'm going to do this.

My flame has been eating lots and I've been feeding smaller amounts a few times a day when I can. My.flame now eats all three types of food I feed now which I feel like is a good sign. I see no visable spots but I know that doesn't mean I'm clear yet.

[asylumdown]

Ich is tricky like that. There's lots of people who reach stability with it in their system, rarely seeing so much as a single cyst for months or years. Fish can develop a partial immunity to it over time, and there's a bunch of different strains, some probably less virulent than others. Even if you don't treat these fish and fallow the tank for months, doing the TT on all future arrivals limits the potential to introduce a new strain to which your fish have less immunity and is more virulent.

You might have a hard time adding certain fish to this tank, and if you do add an "ich magnet" it will be possible for the levels of parasite to climb high enough to affect even your otherwise healthy fish, but it's entirely possible to manage a tank with ich. Lots and lots of people do it.

I went through the headache of fallowing my tank because I couldn't add new fish. New arrivals would be overwhelmed and die within a week, while my resident fish were pretty much ok. I lost several otherwise healthy fish to the treatment, then lost all of them when the QT tank crashed a few days before they were supposed to go back in the display. The treatment ended up being way worse than the disease. Since then I've worked hard to keep it out so I never have to deal with it again.

[dino]

You guys know your stuff great info provided. I would say stay calm and observe.

[trilinearmipmap]

When I had ich I raised the temperature a couple of degrees (to like 81 or something) and just waited and it cleared up. Also I would recommend really slowing down on any tank additions. One thing at a time and 6 months apart. It may sound like overkill but I think tanks need time to adjust.

[BackPackHunter]

Genius idea. In my dream build, my fish room would have built in tank transfer tanks with sloped bottoms and valved holes at the bottom for draining. I'd also have one of those hand held restaurant style kitchen sprayers installed so I could just leave the valve at the bottom open and hose out the tank.

I'm in the middle of plain and picking up gear for my last aquarium build, so a lot of tought has been going into it, I considered a slope n bottom bulk head, but didn't want a whorl pool affect, and wanted to be in front of the tank turning valves, and the space I have for it , made me go with this design.
I'm going to have a garden hose for the sprayer to reach any part of the room.

I'm also QT'ing after the transfer to watch for other problems, and to interdouse fish that I want to add into the DT at the same time .....
I don't want to be doing more then 2 fish together in the transfer at one time

For my transfer tanks I went with 25g cubes (18x18x18)