Tank size for Tangs? An evaluation...

[Diomedes]

What is natural?

Recently here at Canreef we had a heated debate over the maintenance of two small (3 to 5cm?) Paracanthurus hepatus (Blue tangs) in a 33 gallon tank with a 40 gallon footprint. I unfortunately added some slander and rude comments in an outburst of temper. I decided to make up for it by writing this post. I apologize to those who were offended, and I hope to have the opportunity to offend you again in the future, if only to have the opportunity to apologize again. HeHe Just Kiddin…

In the beginning of Scott Michaels’ book Marine Fishes he states that his “Minimum Aquarium Size” evaluation is the
“minimum suitable aquarium volume for an adult individual of the species. Of course, juveniles and adolescents can be housed in smaller tanks. Activity levels and behavior patterns of a particular species have been accounted for whenever possible…please note that providing as much room as possible will allow any fish to acclimate better…”

Now I understand that this is a MINIMUM aquarium size, but if SM is giving a 12.2” blue tang 100 gallons of space (some of which is filled with rock and sand maybe?) then I don’t understand how putting a 1.5 inch tang in a 40 gallon could cause so much emotion. This is because 12.2 inches in 100 gallons is roughly equivalent to 8.2 gallons of water per inch of Tang. My friend Sumpfinfishe is giving approx. 27 gallons of water per inch of Tang. This is much more space per inch of fish, and that isn’t even taking into account the width of such a huge 12.2” beast. In fact if SM were to give his 12.2” tang as much space as Sumpfinfishe, then he would have written the Min Aquarium size as 330 gallons. So it appears that Sumpfinfishe is giving his tang(s) over 3 times the minimum aquarium size recommended by a world expert. But hey, this is all just the examination of Expert advice. I have a heap of respect for Scott Michaels. He has studied marine biology (as I am doing now – 4th year), and can take some very very pretty pictures. But how did he come to his values for Min Aq size? I don’t know…All I know is that he puts a 7.5” tibicen angel in a 20 gal, a 45” (~4.9ft!!) moray in a 30 gal, a 2ft Coris Wrasse in a 135gal, a 20” Niger trigger in a 75, etc etc etc and the list goes on…Troy has recently expressed regrets over Scott Michaels Minimum Aquarium sizes, and upon closer inspection this would seem to be pretty darn accurate. But SM still has my devotion…his Reef Fishes Vol One is a beautiful book that shows the true depth of his knowledge. I also examined the Dr Burgess Atlas of Marine Aquarium Fishes and I found similar (and sometimes worse IMO) ratings for tank size versus adult length. So where does this all lead? Do I have the magic number of gallons per inch of tang? No, because if I did I would be up in Anchorage Alaska eating dinner with Dr. Shimek. We all have to trust our judgement and kill fish in order to learn. (~JK)

But this does go back to an important question for me…What is natural for a marine fish? In light of recent debates on this board and others, it seems to me that the question of what is natural for our fish (tank size, flow, feeding, water quality etc.) is always going to be a hot topic.
What is natural for your marine fish? Let’s first look at the factors that affect natural behaviors of fish in the wild:

1)Search for food (foraging, grazing, hunting etc.)

2)Competition with same species (intraspecific) and with others (interspecific)

3)Predation (actions taken to deter something from eating oneself – schooling, hiding etc.)

4)Reproductive needs (courtship, nesting, harems, schooling etc.)

5)Disease/Parasites (cleaning stations etc.)

6)Seasonal/Climatic environmental changes (tides, storms etc.)

Now how many of these factors influence a fish once it is in your aquarium?

1)They don’t have to search for food – in fact they probably are trying to get away from it half the time (HeHe)

2)They do compete with each other, but because of the enclosed space the competition is abrupt and usually one fish achieves dominance very quickly…after all there are only so many niches in your aquarium…mysis, brinnies, etc.

3)Once the fear of being eaten wears off (this takes a while in some cases) this behavioural stimulus is no longer present…until the hobbyist buys that cute little grouper.

4)Reproductive needs cannot be met (for most species) in most hobbyists’ aquariums. Does the drive to reproduce still effect behaviors? Sure. How? Don’t know, aren’t even close to understanding.

5)Yes Diseases and parasites shape behaviors in our aquaria. The fish tries to get away, can’t, then either dies or is cured.

6)Tides/Storms etc. don’t make an impact in most people’s tanks. Now power outages though….

So running down the list, there are very few things happening naturally in a typical saltwater aquarium. So what is “Natural” for fish in the wild may not be natural for fish in the aquarium. Look at Cats…is it natural for them to sleep 22 hours a day in the wild? What behaviors do they exhibit in the wild? How much territory do they roam, what food do they eat etc.? The point I am trying to make is that we have to be happy at the present time with as much space as we can afford to give our fish. I just use common sense to make up for my (and anyone else’s) lack of concrete knowledge on how much space a small tang needs…is he happy, eating, frolicking? I tend to worry about bringing out the life on my rock, maintaining properly unpredictable flows etc. But hey that’s my opinion, and I am sure many of you will disagree.

[Troy F]

Good post Diomedes. Your math equations have taken the tang/surgeon fish debate to a new level. You are not going to convince me that any surgeon fish belongs in a tank of that size. I know a few other people you'll never convince as well.

You're post makes some really insightful points that I hope most hobbiests have already considered and accepted. Our tanks aren't a natural system, no matter how hard we try. Most species don't reproduce in our aquariums and alot of them probably have seasonal urges. When you consider that reproduction is the second most important drive (after eating) in nature, it makes life look pretty stressful for our tank inhabitants. But, like you said; we don't understand much about that. If we keep fish in an aquarium we are removing them from the many activities they'd be doing naturally. We do know certain things about a lot of the species. One of these is size and swimming behaviours. Since we have control over this key issue, why not do our utmost to provide the best environment possible? For tangs and surgeons, doesn't this mean a reasonably large tank at the minimum, and a huge one if you can? You used Dr. Shimek's name so I'll point out that he won't add any fish that isn't locked to a small piece of territory in the wild. This eliminates all surgeons and tangs from the equation, in his view.

Back to the numbers, what about when (if) these fish grow? Does the equation still work out when you put those fish into the 60gal aquarium? Is everyone that buys a fish, that will eventually be to large for their system, going to be able to find a home for it that'll be suitable? Sumpinfishe hasn't actually. Two large hepatus surgeons in a 60 doesn't quite cut it for my ethics. I don't know anyone that would want a 8" hepatus tang to add to their system, so unless I can provide a home for one for its entire life, I won't buy one. That is my belief.

As for Scott Michael; I express no regrets about his recommendations. If people were to live by them, we'd have a more ethical hobby. Personally, I'd give a bit more room for large swimmers than he recommends in certain places but I'll defer to his experience, education and "pretty picture" taking skills on the subject. If I'm not mistaken, he is working towards a PhD in ichthyology. When you take his education and experience into consideration, I think they add up to more than a degree in biology and a good eye for pictures.

A wild cat in captivity would do very little differently than a domesticated cat but if you didn't feed it, look out. Wolves vs. dogs would have been a better analogy don't you think?

[Aquattro]

Originally posted by Diomedes:
But hey that’s my opinion, and I am sure many of you will disagree.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't really see anything to disagree with. BTW, I'm starting a new authority group called the anthias police....anyone want to join?
tongue.gif

[sumpfinfishe]

Wow! I'm speachless
Looks like someone has been doing some homework.
Thanks for your educated and insightful view. I would like to add only one comment to this post: Aquarists are pragmatic if nothing else,and systems and techniques that prove to be the most effective,despite contradicting popular and scientifc views, almost always become the prevailing practice over time. Home aquarists have no economic or philosophic need to follow a "company line" or to stay within boundries of any particular technology or methodology. We do what is necessary to maintain the animals and plants we admire in our own little "captive oceans" and we are constantly pushing back the boundaries of knowledge and technology in our quest. The cutting edge of aquarium technology is often found in the home tanks of aquarists rather than in scientific laboratories or huge public aquariums. Martin A. Moe,Jr.

[ 19 September 2002, 09:53: Message edited by: sumpfinfishe ]

[Troy F]

SFF, what does your Moe quote smile.gif mean in regards to the discussion?

[Bob I]

I will start by saying that a fish having a brain the size of a pea cannot be happy or unhappy. It can be comfortable or uncomfortable though. With that in mind I will say that I have kept tangs in a 36" tank. I found that a decent sized tang looked distinctly uncomfortable. I did keep a very small Regal Tang in a 36" tank. It did fine until it reached 3" in size. It then began to look uncomfortable. I then took it back to the LFS where it was placed in an eight foot tank. It looked better there. Those are my observations for what they are worth.

[ 19 September 2002, 10:05: Message edited by: Bob Ipema ]

[stephane]

I bet this tread will finish in a kids war ;)

[Aquattro]

My personal opinion is that if a fish in a tank has to turn around after encountering a glass pane, the tank is too small. Sometimes we're willing to impose a certain level of sacrifice on a fish for our own personal viewing pleasure. If you don't think Tangs belong in a tank, great. If you do, nobody on any Internet board is going to change that. I keep two tangs in my tank; are they happy? I doubt it. Am I a good person for keeping them there? I doubt it. I have bought the largest tank I could afford but they still hit the glass and turn around. Some people keep angels, anthias, triggers, etc, in tanks that are too small and still insist on attacking tang owners. Do tangs belong in 33g tanks? Probably not. Is a 180 really any better, compared with the home we took them from? No. Does anyone want to keep reading my rambling? No. Bye tongue.gif

[sumpfinfishe]

To answer Troy's ?
What I'm trying to say is that I would not impeed a fishes growth or health if I knew I was doing so. Yes, I do keep a fish that can get very large in adult size, however I would never keep a fish in my reef beyond it's rate. When I trade this fish to my l.f.s. or to a friend it will be going to a larger home-you have my word on that. However I see no harm in keeping a fish of this size(3cm)and growing as long as it appears healthy and happy. I also keep a tang in my reef to study it's behaviour not just because of it's beauty. As to Moe's comment, well it appears that some aquarists do not see my point of veiw, however I feel that as long as this type of fish is a juvinile there is nothing wrong with my actions. I read in my previous post that someone purchased a 1.5 cm juvnile tang for a 70 gal tank and that it had died by being caught into the overflow. So my point is: whats better, myself raising a juvinile tang until it's large enough to go to a new home or another aquarists getting the same tang and loosing it to an overflow or being consumed by larger fish. I could say no, and not purchase another baby tang so then what- it could die in a tank too large or from being kept in a l.f.s. holding tank as no l.f.s. is going to ship back a fish because no one wants to purchase it. Happy reefing, sff smile.gif

[Diomedes]

Yeah, I think trading in fish to an LFS is a reality, and has been one, for some time...I didn't start with a 180, so I had to trade fish in or give them to other hobbyists that had larger tanks. I would keep a small 1 to 1.5 inch blue tang in a 33 gallon, but when it got to 2.5-3 inches I would trade it up immediately. Troy, you said "We do know certain things about a lot of the species. One of these is size and swimming behaviours" I agree on one level, but the point I am trying to make is that "swimming behaviors" are searching for food, initiating/fulfilling reproductive needs, competeing for resources, escaping predation etc. The amount a fish swims in the wild is determined by these factors. Now since we have eradicated or changed these 4 needs doesn't that also change the behavior used to fulfill them? I know we differ on many of these points, but this is not homework, as Sumpfinfishe alluded to (the calculations were ;) ) but sound ecological theory that we are taught...when you take away the influences in the wild that produce natural behavior, what behavior then becomes natural for an organism? I can't say I know, I just think it is an interesting question...Thanks for your input on my question though, I hope Stephane is Wrong about the kids war :rolleyes:

[titus]

Hello,

Okay I can say this. If someone offers to me the following:

1) all the beautiful women in the world (reproductive)
2) all the toys I can have (fun)
3) all the food I can eat (food/resources)
4) a big house to live in (shelter)

but confines me to live only within the area of the house, I wouldn't be too happy. Reminds me of the movie "Planet of the Apes", where humans were offered everything but confined within bars under the observation of apes.

I believe there is a definite relationship between the points Diomedes listed and swimming behavior. But at the same time, removing those points doesn't necessarily remove the swimming behavior.

I try to think of it this way:
1) model the fish brain/behavior as a finite state machine (just think of it like a computer), which outputs depend on its current state, inputs, and the relationship (model) that governs the inputs, outpts, current state, and next state as:
outputs & next_state = model(current_state, inputs)

2) Given the above relationship, removing the inputs (ie food, reproductive requirements, and predation or risk level) doesn't necessarily change the outputs & next_state (behavior), etc.

Okay enough of this logic. I think communication and dsp is more fun.

Titus

[Diomedes]

Good point titus, but we cannot determine a Tang's happiness by drawing parallel lines to our own personal experience...I know a few people who would take what you shun. But that doesn't mean a fish is happy (or not) in any system. And your calculations, obviously more complex than mine are really interesting. But I still don't understand them...
I am not here to say that a given small tang is happy or not in a 33, nor did my calculations. They simply showed that a world expert gives his MINIMUM tank size as less. I'll bet he prefers more space though...
Second, I did not mean to imply that fulfilling a tang's foraging needs etc. would also negate its needs for space. I guess it kinda sounds like it, but I believe that eliminating/changing these 4 needs also changes (not eliminates) their natural need for space.

[Troy F]

>I will start by saying that a fish having a brain the size of a pea cannot be happy or unhappy<

I know people that have similar traits and they appear happy.

>Is a 180 really any better, compared with the home we took them from? No.<

I couldn't disagree more. There's no comparison.

>I read in my previous post that someone purchased a 1.5 cm juvnile tang for a 70 gal tank and that it had died by being caught into the overflow.<

Actually Doug's tank is a 170 and honestly, he thinks it couldn't handle the current but it's just his guess. It's possible that it didn't handle the stress of lights out or any number of things and that is where it ended up. The argument that, "if I don't buy one, someone with a worse/smaller set up will" isn't very strong. If the people without proper systems stop buying unsuitable fish, the stores will stop carrying as many.

>I also keep a tang in my reef to study it's behaviour not just because of it's beauty.<

What would you be studying about a surgeon fish's behaviour in a 33gal tank? It's natural tendencies?

[Aquattro]

Originally posted by Troy F:
[QB
>Is a 180 really any better, compared with the home we took them from? No.

I couldn't disagree more. There's no comparison.

[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Troy, you're disagreeing with this?? To reiterate, I'm saying a 180 is no better than a 33 when compared to the ocean.

[Canadian]

a) The aquarium is 27g with the footprint of a 33g (not a 33g with the footprint of a 40g).

b) The size of the remaining Tang has repeatedly been referenced as 3cm and yet if you look at this picture of the tank when it had 2 Tangs (http://reefcentral.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?s=98047e7aa8ae5f18cf2567383d9bd496&postid=663602) and do a little math to figure out the scale you get the following (17" monitor, blah, blah, blah the specifics don't really matter because everything is kept to scale anyway.): On my monitor the tank in the picture is 81mm long, and the smallest of the 2 Tangs (which is not parallel to the front pane of glass and is actually turned sideways somewhat) is 6mm long. Assuming the tank is indeed 36" long, 6/81 x 36" equals a 2-2/3" (or 6.8cm) Tang. Do either of the fish in the picture seriously look like they're 3% of the length of the tank?

c) Consider the observations made by Richard Harker: Upon setting up his newest aquarium (the really long one - I forget how long it was exactly - something like 12 or 15 feet) he noted that his Yellow Tangs began to exhibit much more natural behavior (swimming patterns in particular) than they had in smaller aquariums. Granted, the above case is in reference to a Yellow Tang and not a Regal Tang, but Harker's observations clearly indicate that "eliminating/changing" the aforementioned "4 needs" had a limited effect on "natural need for space", and that the desire for space was intrinsic and, once fulfilled, facilitated significant changes in behavior.

[ 19 September 2002, 16:23: Message edited by: Canadian ]

[jedimaster]

Interesting post but the one calculation you forgot to mention was a tangs natural environment.
approx
2,000,000,000 gallons of water per inch of fish.

Now you mean to tell me that 5 gallons per inch of fish or 30 or 40 or 100 or 1000 is enough?
Obviously none are adequate. The whole point is that most people would like to give as much room as possible for any living creature. And for most people the largest practical size tank is 100 gallons, many people however choose to go larger, even better.
The fact remains a 27 gallon fish tank is too tiny, as is a 150 gallon tank. But if YOU were locked up in a cage for the rest of your life would you want it to be 27 square feet or 100 square feet.

JMHO

[Doug]

Actually Troy, it was the 180. My yellow is in the 170. However your correct, in that it could have been a thousand things. They are very fragile, when that young.

My post saying they should be kept in smaller tanks, was just for captive raised baby hippo,s.

A lot of advice on tank sizes for large fish, were supposed to be in general, {talking all boards here}. If the new aquarists, keep on putting them in their 20g/undergravel filter systems,{as is done everywhere}, the import and useless slaughter of wildlife will continue.

Its the same as the anemone issue. It was supposed to be in a general form, that people were telling new aquarists they were harder to keep. Flame wars were fought over that also. Then someone, :rolleyes: said, just feed them, and they dont even require much light. :( So now nobody says much about keeping some of the species and most new aquarists, give it a try.

Come here for a visit and I will take you to a store, where bleached seabaes are sold on a regular basis to aquarists, with their 20 gal tanks, little lighting and no knowledge. Lets just keep ripping them from the ocean. :(

There are posters on both sides of the arguments, that cant see the trees for the forest. They have to wade in with crap, directed at someone in person, about their tank being to small, and then someone on the other side calling everyone that says that, an idiot,etc,etc. I have seen it over & over.

You know whats suffering. Perhaps not the tangs in sff,s tank, or a friends 60 gal. with a fat, happy yellow, etc. Its the above mentioned large fish & anemones & some hard to keep species of corals, because experienced aquarists are starting to say the hell with it, because of a few, in every post on this topic, on every board.

A couple years ago, with the advent of all the boards, some of the posts were actually making a difference. Now, {as with tangs}, its a big freakin, tang police joke and that,IMO, is a crying shame.

Diomedes, although I dont agree myself, I like your post. Bringing up the topic like you have, with a decent argument on your behalf, cant help but do the hobby good. Regardless if correct or otherwise, it is in your opinion, and the way you have put it, is the way a response should be to some of these types of posts. A lot more aquarists would then see good opposing views, instead of name calling and flame wars,{in general}.

I once said I would never again post on one of these threads, {but now I have opened my big mouth}. Its just to impotant of a topic to stay out of. Hope this keeps on going, with good posts.

However, right now, I have to go watch Survivor. :D

[naesco]

Diomedes
The comments directed to me personally in your post in the thread entitled "Prizm Skimmer" called reefer Ryan7 to ask you "What kind of educated person expresses their views like you have done?"
Why has it taken you four full days to apologise for your rudeness?
However, I accept your apology as set out in this thread.
I need to ask you the following questions>

What is the size of your present tank?
How long has it been established?
How many years experience have you had with keeping tangs?
Which species of tangs?
Your success and failures and with which species of tangs?
How long have you observed the behaviour in your home of your tangs in a smaller tank (less than 100) next to a large one?

If I who have kept many species of tangs over 8 years and others on this board with tang experience were to share with you our experience would it make any difference to you?
Thank you for starting this thread.

[SuperFudge]

Sorry,I swayed a little off topic.

[ 19 September 2002, 20:49: Message edited by: Superfudge ]

[naesco]

Superfudge posted as follows

"98% of us do not purchase the fish to NOT give them anything less than our best care"
Perfect smile.gif
So how do we do that.
1. By reading books about the fish we keep, visiting online sites such as canreef.
2. By joining clubs like Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton
3. By learning from those people who already have the experience with the species of fish we are interested in.

As reefer Ryan7 posted in the prizm skimmer thread
"The so called tang police are nothing more than a group of reefers experienced in keeping tangs who are more than happy to share their experience with all of us."
So why is it necessary for some of us to purchase powder blue tangs only to have them die in our tanks and take most of the existing healthy fish with them?
So why is it necessary to try to reinvent this whole tang tank size issue to justify our keeping tangs in less than optimal conditions?
In my opinion we owe it to the critters we keep and our hobby to be concientious reef keepers.
The days of filling our tanks with impossible to keep species and, species unsuitable for our tanks are over.
It is simply not acceptable.
I am in the beginnings of setting up a new reef tank. I am looking forward to your sharing your experience with me.

[EmilyB]

Oops, thinking out loud. Never mind.

[ 19 September 2002, 23:26: Message edited by: EmilyB ]

[Delphinus]

In my opinion we owe it to the critters we keep and our hobby to be concientious reef keepers.


Fantastic statement, BTW! smile.gif

It seems to me .... If we take the critters out of the ocean, then we owe it to them to somehow make it a worthwhile sacrifice on their part. It's not like they asked to be plucked out of the wild.

It's too bad that most of us don't have the means to set up a 12' - 16' tank though. :(

[Ryan7]

I agree, excellent statement naesco!!

One comment, or question if you will, I have regarding some statements made earlier about raising, and then returning fish to the LFS.

How can someone buy a small tang, put it in a small tank until it grows, and then return it or trade it in to the LFS? Don't you get too attached to the fish to just give it away?

[naesco]

Thanks Delphinus for the kind words.
And also thanks, son. ;)

I am sure I speak for almost everyone on the board when I say that it would be almost impossible to return a blue (regal) tang that you bought as a baby (they are definitely a fish you get attached to real quick)after keeping it a few months in your tank.

That is why it is so much easier on the tang and you, sumpfinfishy, if you return the tang now or trade it with a fellow reefer you have met with a larger tank than a 27 gallon. Please.

[ 20 September 2002, 19:20: Message edited by: naesco ]

[EmilyB]

BTW, how is Half Pint O'Tang doing Tony ? ;)

[billc]

Talk about some good and thought out arguments... If this was a debate I don't know who to vote for.. But being the pea sized brained OKIE I was raised as, some of this makes sence..

First when you where a little kid didn't the house seem larger than when you'r an adult?? Smaller size equals more places to hide in.. Under the bed, fort in the closet ect. I think fish and all animals behave in much the same way.. Watch a puppie or a kitten as to where they play.. But on the flip side watch the adult. A St. Benard or Great Dane is very happy as a puppy in a small apt but soon grows out of space as it matures..

Next look at how the enviornment we live in changes our lifestyles but not our major health.. Being raised in Oklahoma in tornado alley I became use to the violent storms. I then moved to the mountians of Colorado in an area which is plauged by avalanches and severe winter storms which are common at hight altitudes. I survived the the change. Moved back to OK. and the heat. Once again survived. Now in Iowa where the climate is a full 4 seasons. Still alive and kicking..

I think most animals are capable of adapting to their environment as long as it is not too encroaching

:rolleyes:

[sumpfinfishe]

Yes of course I get attached to my Tangs, however some people are having troubles reading or remembering the entire threads, ie: "when a tang outgrows my reef it is given to a friend or my roomate"-so I can see these fish remain happy and healthy anytime I want. "Some fishes keepers" I tell ya, what do you think I do it for-the money, com"on I'm not a used tang salesmen for peatsakes.

[Mak]

You sure have a Sales pitch..."Some Fishes Keepers" I tell ya... :D ;) :rolleyes: smile.gif

[ 22 September 2002, 04:08: Message edited by: MAK ]

[Skimmerking]

With everyones statements here ,they are all awesome and very professional. IMO :cool: I think the biggest problems on these boards are the lack of money to Some people. And people I have see that can't take constructive critisism.
Someone may have a idea on something, which is cool. But some one may not see it as cool turnes around and knocks that persons idea or way of doing it. It may not be wrong to the person doing it, due to maybe that is the way he was taught or shown. That's way there are many ways of doing a reef tank. But there is only one way to do a REEF tank. Leave it alone in the OCeans for mother nature to take care of. Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm the first to tell you i know nothing at all ,but learn very quickly to make a beautiful tank with the resourses tha i have. But i will see some NEG issues out of this. YOIU GOTTA LOVE FREE SPEECH!!!! :D :D

[Diomedes]

I have been thinking about something for a while...why isn't this a hot topic for Centropyge (pygmy) angels, Large angels, Triggerfish, Puffers etc. etc. After all, Triggers and Puffers are roaming predators?
I THINK (not altogether too certainly) that it is because Tangs invariably are the favourite (maybe only) centerpiece fish in reef tanks. It has been really interesting (and thought provoking) to hear all of the responses and debate. It is clear to me, at least, that there are very few aquarists on this board that would endorse any purchase of a Med to Lg Tang, and a large number of conscientious people who extend the same courtesy to juveniles as well...I Share the same values in regards to the first group. I don't feel that I can naturally shape and nurture the development of my reef tank while there is a Tang attempting a 12-point turn in my 75 gallon. But on the subject of Juveniles....I have enjoyed trading in my personal (and proffesional - ie job related) Tangs to Tak at the Vancouver Aquarium Marine Science Center. He loves Tangs and invariably finds at least 400 gallons for them. Many of my Naso's, Yellows, a Powder blue, are still there as of last week when I dropped in. So I am all for trading up, and I feel that it is my devotion and attachment that causes me to do so. One thing is for sure, I will give them away in great condition with a fat little belly that has nothing to do with internal parasites. HeHe

Another thought - Why would it be that some Acanthuriids (tangs) mimic Centropyge spp. angelfish as Juveniles? I think (this is only a theory) that they also display the crytic, territorial behavior of these Dwarf angels when they are young. Borneman said it true when he proclaimed "The reef is a battle ground" Or was it "War Zone" ah whatever I don't remember exactly and I am too lazy to go downstairs and give you guys the direct quote.
It would be prudent on the part of a small tang to be very careful when he shows his ass outside of a coral head of some other crevice. Maybe only to get food and return to his lot, because you can bet there are a lot of hungry reef junkies that could benefit from a nutritious lottle omega-3 snackbar. So, many of you might see this as another attempt to justify my belief in keeping juvenile tangs. Well this isn't an attempt to justify - I just find it a curious thing (worthy of research) as to why two prominent reef tang species mimic cryptic (not roaming) fish. In general, mimics not only display morphological (physical characteristics) mimicry but also display behavioral mimicry as well.

Example:
Have you ever gotten the wrong type of Bluestreak Cleaner Wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus)?

But when all is said and done, I recognize and admire the restraint of others who can resist trying to care for these little beauties, regardless if their beliefs are based on a world authority, their own private studies, or just a hunch that their little guys aren't happy. Whatever way you do it, if it is done well and things are growing and reproducing then invite me over and supply the beer.

Diomedes

[Troy F]

Another interesting post. Marc (Fudge) and I touched on the subject the other day. He raised the same question about large angels and triggers, etc.. Why don't they receive the same scrutiny? Because we are predominantly reefers, they don't come up as a subject of discussion usually as they aren't really reef friendly. My feelings regarding the aforementioned species is the same as my view on tangs/surgeons.

I disagree with your view on trading the fish in. How many fish do you think Tak is going to accept? This might work for you but it certainly won't be an opportunity for everyone. You should have plans for the fishes entire lifespan when you buy it. That would be conscientious husbandry. When this subject was first brought up, it was because of SFF's Paracanthurus hepatus living in a 33gal tank. At one time there were two in there. He says that they're ~1.5" but the photo (as Canadian points out) clearly shows they are significantly larger. When do you decide when your fish goes to a larger home? What is a larger home? SFF's fish will make it's way to a 60, then what? One of the things hobbyists tend to do is exagerate in what ever direction makes them look better.

I think the point you make about mimics is interesting although, I don't know that it applies in the way you would like. I read what little I have on them and it only states that they mimic because the angel is less palatable. Correct me if I'm wrong but both families are grazers, they would starve if they just bolted to grab a bite here and there. My guess would be, they go from hiding spot to hiding spot while eating. The difference in keeping two different species with similar habits would be the maximum growth attained. A dwarf angel may be quite alright in a 50gal but a surgeon would be cramped.

Since you brought Centropyge spp. up, I have a few thoughts on them as well. I kept a C. potteri in my 72gal. He was ~1.5" and beautifully colored, my favourite fish but I questioned keeping him for two reasons; 1.) he made a clam nervous 2.) he would at times pace the glass frantically. Now, maybe the pacing at the glass was challenging his reflection but it could have been discomfort with being in captivity. The centropyge family are all widely accepted in smaller tanks but I do wonder if this is always the best place for them. My suspician is, that any grazing species of fish will be hit or miss in smaller tanks. Food for thought.

[Doug]

Good point Diomedes on all larger fish. I can only speak for myself. I have always mentioned them in these threads. I believe I even said large fish a couple times in this thread.

Large angels, IMO, are even worse than large tangs, to keep in all but the largest tanks.

As for pygmy angels, they seem to do best in a decent size tank, but only with LOTS, of live rock, to hide & dart in. They also thrive on lots of growth of different algaes.

If you want my opinion, I would say their best tank, would be like a manderins. Good sandbed or even a reverse undergravel filter system. Lots of live rock, with lots of caves,etc. A decent growth of calerpa, in the tank, or even lots of hair algae growth. Perhaps some corals like leathers and the such. No anenomes, lps, sps.

[sumpfinfishe]

So Troy you think I'm hiding the truth about the size of my tangs, ok then, you are more than welcome to come over and see for yourself the size of my tangs. I should let you know however that if you do come by the deal is that you tell all the members the "real size" and health of these fish. I should also mention that image on my reefpage is an older image that was taken with a wide angle lens which tends to throw everything out of true size and shape. As for exagerating, well I'm not on this board to impress anyone, I'm simply here to share my opinions,lend a fin, and to expand my reefing knowledge. It seems to me that there are a few people out here that are
ignorant and big headed as all they have to say about others is in a negitive manner.Also the only fish that goes to my roomates tank is a regal, every other fish in my reef is at least two to three years old and they are perminent residents. When I aquire a new baby regal I do make sure it has another larger home to go to in the future. My single regal now, will end up in another friends reef(180gal) in a year or so depending on it's growth rate, at which time I will aquire another baby ragal tang to take it's place.

[Troy F]

A difference of opinion hardly makes someone ignorant SFF. Ironic choice of words though. Try to avoid the use of insults in your argument lest I assume you're ignorant ;) .

[Doug]

Why would we want to close this thread? It was started by Diomedes, on tangs in general and not on anybodys specific tank, although we know thats what started it. It has been an interesting thread, with some very good info for learning aquarists.
I agree it needs to stay on topic and not on arguments about a specific tank. OR, it may be closed. ;)

[robert]

I agree it needs to stay on topic and not on arguments about a specific tank. OR, it may be closed. ;) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doug, precisely. You got my point. ;)

[Skimmerking]

I second the motion ,even if i can't read!!!! tongue.gif

[naesco]

I think I can answer some of the questions asked here.
The reasons why tangs are the subject of so much concern relative to their care are twofold
1. Tangs are beautiful endearing fish. Take a look at an angel for example. They may be brightly coloured but who could fall in love with them? OK I may just be a tiny bit biased.
2. Most of my fish is dying, my fish has ich, my fish is sick or they are killing each other threadsinvolve tangs when you think about it right.
IME most of the problem, provided you buy a healthy specimin is environmental ie. stress caused by other tankmates in a small tank or so so water conditions.

I think a lot of the controversy on the tang issue would be avoided if the original posters who are experienced tang keepers prefaced their comments with a caveat such as "The powder blue tang is an almost impossible to keep species but I have had success by feeding...........whatever.
No one would consider talking about mandarins without prefacing their remarks with the necessity of an established tank with high pod populations would they?

[mikeb]

this is my first reply to any subject posted on any sight .I agree to a point with both sides of the debate. One tangs are going to need to go to a larger tank in the future ,but once again it doesn't mean that a person with a larger tank knows what they are doing nor has a better setup than a guy with a 33 gallon tank .Alot of larger tank owners have huge egos when itcomes to the size of anything. I should know I've been in the industry for half my life and this is what i do for a living. Most of us forget about proper diet and healthy water conditions let alone tank size or really knowing about hands on experiance.I've been impressed overall with all the the replies over the last couple of years and there is some amazing tanks there. One final thought if we wanted to get right down to it alot of the livestock we keep together shouldn't be: we forget conditions differ around the world and were not all keeping species in are tanks from one area are we. Thanks for all support for animal house over the last couple years .

[stephane]

Originally posted by stephane:
I bet this tread will finish in a kids war ;) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did I win someting yet!!!!!!!!!!! :D tongue.gif :eek: smile.gif

[ 23 September 2002, 20:21: Message edited by: stephane ]

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by stephane:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by stephane:
I bet this tread will finish in a kids war ;) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did I win someting yet!!!!!!!!!!! :D tongue.gif :eek: smile.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">um.. the only person I see being childish is you Steph.. there are some realy good discussions happening here.

the only comment I have is for the tang police themselves.. have you ever wondered how many people that have knowlage and hands on experiance with tangs that you are scarring from making posts to help people? I am not talking about people with 33 gal tanks but rather of people who are running 90 to 120 gal tanks with two tangs or bigger with more that are helthy and have been doing good for years.. It sure is a shame that we cannot benifit from the experence of thease people because they don't want to put op with the "Crap" from the so called "Tang police"

JMHO

Steve

[naesco]

I think you may be of the mistaken opinion that the tang police are a group of reefers experienced with tangs who just have very large tanks.
That is not the case.
Most reefers who have 90 to 120 gallon tanks who are experienced in keeping tangs might not post because they would agree with most of what they, the tang police, say.
Crap?? Come on be nice, eh

What do you disagree with Stircrazy?
What is the size of your tank?How long has it been up and running?
What species of tangs do you keep?
Thank you

[ 23 September 2002, 21:21: Message edited by: naesco ]

[EmilyB]

My doubleband surgeonfish appeared to have HLLE, actually, it looked like someone shot it.

We immediately ran some tests for stray voltage and got a problem with the new skimmer pump.

I was sick about the tang, but we basically watched this hole disappear when the problem pump was shut down.

I really didn't post that largely because of anti-tang threads. That scares me.

[EmilyB]

BTW, I kept a harem of lemon peels in the 155g for about ten months and they spawned nightly..it was awesome.

When I changed the tanks over, and moved them to smaller quarters every one of them died. :(

I still regret that so much.

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by naesco:

What do you disagree with Stircrazy?
What is the size of your tank?How long has it been up and running?
What species of tangs do you keep?
Thank you<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this is what I mean.. it doesnt matter what I put you are going to blast it as being to small.. but it is a 92 gal tank with a yellow tang.

but you yourself are looking for corals for a brand new tank with out any regard for them.

Do I see anyone being a Anthias police? they are small and the min recomendation for them is 50 to 60 gal PER fish, but no one cares..

tangs are a nice fish but as with any type of fish they have different requirments for each type.. I can almost understand that you should warn people that traditionaly powder blues have a bad track record but I also have seen a large numbers of powder blues that are healthy and happy.. same goes for other types..

my main problem is that when some one does ask for help or advice the first thing the "tang Police" say is "do the right thing take it back to the store." "shame on you how could you" ect.. instead of trying to actualy help people.

Emily was a case and point.. she was scared to post about her tang because the first thing said would have been "thats what you get for a tang in a tank that small" or some garbage like that.

just to set the record strait .. I am not condoning a large tang in a 33 gal tank.. nor am I saying that you should have a min 180 gal tank , or 5 foot long tank befor you get a tang.. all I am trying to say is lets try to help people with out the garbage remarks, other wise people don't come back and we could be missing out on some other valuable experiance that they might have had.

Steve

[Troy F]

C'mon guys, Stephane was just joking around. If anyone should take offense from his comments it's me as I'm the one that strayed off course.

Deb, you shouldn't shy away from sharing that kind of information. It may save someone's tang one day. Though many people may know that HLLE is often often caused by stray voltage or malnutrition, there are many that don't.

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by Troy F:
C'mon guys, Stephane was just joking around. If anyone should take offense from his comments it's me as I'm the one that strayed off course.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">true Troy and I apolagize Steph (even if I can't spell it right smile.gif )

I just didn't think that it helped much.. sorry again..

Steve

[Canadian]

What's with the hang up on the whole "Tang Police" issue? Truth be told, I see a lot of problems with people having Anthias, Large Angels, Puffers, Triggers, and the list goes on and on. Tangs just happen to be one of the most commonly acquired specimens that are subjected to conditions that I feel are less than ideal (for a captive environment). Furthermore, the issues regarding water quality and so forth are moot. One should assume that, first and foremost, the basic care requirements such as appropriate water quality, feeding regimen, etc are invariably being met.

What about sharks (in particular Epaulette spp.) being kept in captivity? How many of you believe that they should be housed in very large aquariums, if kept at all? The people who most strongly defend the husbandry practice of keeping Tangs in "smallish" aquariums are typically those who are doing so - as is often the case with those people who choose to house sharks, large Angels, etc. Now, how many of you who have several Tangs in aquariums of 100g or less disagree with keeping sharks in your typical hobbyist's aquarium?

I agree that this thread is going off on a tangent. The "Tang Police" are generally people who are fairly conservative and concerned about the long-term sustainability of the hobby (that's not to say that the people who obviously have some serious disdain for the "Tang Police" don't also share the same concern for the sustainability of the industry/hobby). Perhaps my concern and strong stance stems from the fact that, as someone who worked in the industry for several years, I've seen countless people go to greater and greater lengths to cram more and more fish into their aquaria while viewing the fish as disposable, material possessions.

(P.S. According to my room mate's girlfriend - who has graduated from photography school and is a professional photographer - my calculations of the fish's length are valid. The ratio of the size of the tank to the size of the fish would presumably be constant unless the picture had been doctored in one way or another with something like Photoshop. And the picture was obviously not taken with a "fish-eye" lens or something of the sort that would significantly distort the aspect ratio.)

[ 23 September 2002, 23:26: Message edited by: Canadian ]

[DJ88]

My response to all of this.

Read my signature.. Easy as that.

If more people would heed this. There wouldn't be a need for "Tang Police".

Use your head.. If you wouldn't live in those conditions. Why subject an animal to it. It has as much right to a healthy life as you do. Keep yourself penned up in a tiny apartment 24/7 for a few weeks. See if bothers you to be so enclosed. Especially if you were an active person.

Too many people are shooting for the bare minimum. Far to many. As well, many are now seeking instant gratification by filling their tanks as fast as possible. At the possible downfall of the creatures within. Put the creatures you hope to own ahead of your desires for "eye candy".

[ 23 September 2002, 23:49: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[Samw]

Originally posted by DJ88:

As well, many are now seeking instant gratification by filling their tanks as fast as possible. At the possible downfall of the creatures within. Put the creatures you hope to own ahead of your desires for "eye candy".<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I hear what you are saying. But I recall back in Oct/Nov 2001, I think your heater was stuck on and you lost almost everything and had to restart. Yet, a month later, you were completely restocked and we were all giving you high praises and compliments because it was so amazing to look at. Is this what you mean by too fast though?

smile.gif

[ 24 September 2002, 01:14: Message edited by: Sam W ]

[stephane]

Originally posted by StirCrazy:

I just didn't think that it helped much.. sorry again..

Steve[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was only trying to keep that post on the right track as I know it is a very flamable tread!

Anyway Steve the more I know you the less I want to heard about you so please when you read a post and you see a reply from me just dont read it and ignore me, I will do the same with you .

you are defenitivaly not the kind of people I want to talk anymore

I have tell you politely so please respect and just do it as I dont want to argue

[stephane]

Originally posted by Troy F:
C'mon guys, Stephane was just joking around. If anyone should take offense from his comments it's me as I'm the one that strayed off course.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">:D

[ 24 September 2002, 00:37: Message edited by: stephane ]

[robert]

SFF, if you are so sure about your right doing why you are still here looking for some sort of approval from ignorant and non-ignorant members of this board? Just do what you think is right and enjoy it.

To all others who disagree with SFF, I just would like to say "Give the guy break!". He didn't come here with question "Can I keep tangs in dadadada...." Despite many arguments on this and other boards he believes that he is right. So let him be. Do you want to punish him or something? Only one who wants to be helped can be helped. Is he asking for help? I don't think so.

BTW, if you want to protect tangs then focus on traders with tangs. They kill much more tangs in the capturing process than aquarium stores will ever see.

Can somebody close this thread now, please. :D :D :D :D

[ 23 September 2002, 13:01: Message edited by: pirate ]

[Diomedes]

Many good points Troy,
With regards to your first question, about trading fish in, and how Tak cannot be a resource for everyone. Well that is true. If each reefer here bought a small tang and raised it to the medium size, without killing it, Tak would have more than enough room in his 10,000 gal...but will he ALWAYS be there? No. So your arguement is sound under ideal and lasting conditions. Your suggestion of planning to provide for your Tang's growth as he matures is an ideal solution - obviously the best and most conscientious. This means at some point buying a ~200-300 gallon system(in my opinion). That truly is ideal, but may not be in the plans for many of us. But the arguement is sound again.

It is great to see that most people do their best to provide for their fish, whether it is by trading them into larger systems, or purchasing systems that are larger. (the difference?)

Then about this photo, and the size issue on the small Paracanthurus hepatus. I found the calculation from Canadian's computer screen to be a little sketchy. I respect what he was trying to prove, but looking at a photo to judge size you would need to know a lot more than just the size of your own monitor. The depth, angle, lighting, filters, lense etc. can all contribute to make a tang look small or large. Canadian's method of determining tang size was full of variable's he couldn't control. period.
I could take a snapshot of a 1 cm tang and make it look larger than a dinner-plate sized Sarcophyton spp. (Please don't aske me too though ;) )
As far as exaggerating what makes us look better, that shot was beneath you Troy. You are a great guy to talk to, full of knowledge, and experience. You don't need to speculate on someone's possible exaggerations.

Also Troy - your quote

"I think the point you make about mimics is interesting although, I don't know that it applies in the way you would like."

Maybe not, and maybe you have read that it is because Centropyge spp. angels are less palatable. So have I...I was just speculating that it might not be that simple... The nature of the theory posed is not meant to bolster my arguement, but to bring up an additional relation in behavior. BTW, I have seen two Centropyge spp. angels scarfed down by two separate groupers (Epinephalus ongus, and Cromileptes altivelis) That doesn't mean that Centropyge spp. are palatable, but they are certainly edible.

As far as grazing fish go, I feel that most reef fish species graze on a number of habitats in the wild.

Yes Doug I agree with you completely. I have kept some Centropyge spp. and I have seen them delight in caves, lush live rock full of diverse life. They like to poke at things, and mine likes to organize all the other fish in the tank. He herds them around, keeping them away from hisfavourite arch (including the juvenile powder blue tang!!) They truly excel in tanks that are suitable for mandarins as well. My Centropyge argi has fluorescent blue streaks along his body, and I attribute that to the diversity of life growing on my live rock.

Diomedes

[Troy F]

You've all made some excellent points and, as with every time this argument comes up anywhere on the www, people tend to get a little excited (myself included). Diomedes brought the subject up with some interesting points, try to discuss them or bring any new ideas you have. Try to remember that the reason this is such a hot topic for debate is because people don't agree.

SFF, you have my apologies for singling you out. I still don't agree with you though smile.gif .

I do have a few more thoughts on the subject but have to go to work :( .

[Doug]

:(

[ 24 September 2002, 07:38: Message edited by: Doug ]

[Doug]

As this thread seems to have lived out its useful life, we feel its best it now be closed, before it degenerates further. Sorry, lets get back to reefing.