Greetings and a question regarding deaths while adding new fish.

[ReefDruid]

Hello everyone,

I have lurked around here for a while and it is about time I made an account. On a serious note, I was prompted to join because I am rather distraught over a continuing issue I seem to have. I was really hoping someone here could give me some advice. My fish are like my babies and it is sad losing any one of them. :S

I somewhat recently decided to start keeping marine fish in addition to the African Cichlid and community freshwater habitats I have.

My current marine setups are a 90 gallon w/ 30 gallon sump (~700 gph), SWC Extreme 120 skimmer and approx. 2800 gal/hr circulation. 10 lbs cured live rock, 80 lbs dry rock, 20lbs rubble, 100lbs live sand. 4x T5 HO. Running carbon.

Other setup is a 40B w/ live sand and live rock, HOB ~300 gal/hr, rubble and small amount of floss. Running carbon.

Both systems have livestock, the 40B has a Bi-colour Blenny, and the 90 gal has a female Maroon Clown, 4x Green Chromis, a 2" Blue Regal Tang (yes, I am aware he will need to move to a larger tank), and a Golden Midas Blenny. Tanks also have inverts (snails). Both systems have been running for 3-4 months. Other livestock appear active, friendly, voraciously hungry, and no other issues.

The issue I am having is that every time I purchase a WILD CAUGHT male maroon to join my female, they perish within 2 days of purchase. This is very sad, frustrating and shameful. The female Maroon, and a pair of 1.5" ocellaris in a 20 gal we have are all tank raised. No issues whatsoever with them. Beautiful, healthy specimens.

What is happening is that the fish starts breathing heavily (usually already so due to the shipping from LFS), I notice this for upwards of a 24 hour period. The fish will not eat, and is not active. The fish then may, or may not start to go to the surface for air, otherwise the fish has become lethargic and rapid breathing continues. Eventually the fish falls over, does this horrifying darting presumably because it is suffocating, and then flat-line.

Acclimation process is performed in a 2 gallon container, heated. Drip method employed over the course of between 1 to 3 hours. Dripped amount is approx. 3-6 times volume of the bag water.

Water parameters are as follows for (all) tanks (new API test kits used)

pH - 8.1
NH3/NH4 - 0
N02 - 0
N03 - 0 to 5.0
Phos - 0 to 0.25
KH - 7 to 11 dKH
Salinity - 35 ppt
Temp - 79 F

For the life of me I cannot figure out what I am doing wrong, and at this point I am going to swear off wild caught clowns. One other note of importance, this same process also happened with a pygmy angel I had.

I am fairly certain it is something I am doing, and I feel like an idiot about it because it is probably something not all that complex. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Proteus]

Not sure if your picking up from lfs when stock come in or from their tanks. But. If you pick up when shipments come in and take directly home. There is a chance of a ammonia build up in bag and this can burn there gills then they suffocate

I believe.things more likely Trans shipped fish that spend more time in the bag vs fish that come from " local" wholesaler

Also..alk of 7-11 is vague. More a guess?
Imo don't put to much thought into acclimation. It's really only to bring fish upto salinity of your tank.

And api is only good for filling up the trash can

[ReefDruid]

Thanks for the response.

I only live a few minutes away from the LFS, and the fish are only in the bags maybe 30 minutes tops (very liberal estimate). As a contrast, fish are in the bags for more than 1.5 hours when I travel to pick fish up at another source further away. No issues (except the pygmy angel, same thing happened).

When I put them in the acclimation container it is heated and aerated. The alk. 7-11 varies between tanks and depends on water changes etc.

I should also note, that I have acclimated more than just the clowns in the container at the same time. Everyone else is just fine, but the clown always dies. I get other fish, or tank raised clowns, and no issues whatsoever.

[Proteus]

Are the fish feeding at the lfs. And how long have they been in their tank.
I dont know much about clowns but could be aggression from your existing. Clown

[ReefDruid]

Thanks again for replying.

The first and second clowns I purchased had both been at the LFS for some time (according to the proprietor), on the order of more than a month. The pygmy angel apparently had also been around for some time. The third clown was new to the tank, only having arrived a couple days before.

As for aggression, the female clown is amazingly gentle. In fact the most gentle thing in the tank besides the snails. No aggression observed, and I have been steadily observing. Also, the third clown was added to the 40B with only the bi-colour blenny.

Is it possible that extreme stress could have caused these conditions? I mean I know anything is possible, but does it often result in a fatality?

[kien]

You said, "each time.." Exactly how many times have you tried purchasing a wild maroon?

One thing that could be a factor is the method that was used to capture wild fish. I believe cyanide is still used sometimes. If so, it could be bad luck for you (and the fish) if it was caught using cyanide.

[ReefDruid]

In post 5 I mentioned 3 clowns. I appreciate the input, I am uncertain of the capture method. I would have to be real unlucky though, as the pygmy angel came from another source.

My inverts, pods and other livestock are thriving. I can't for the life of me figure out what I am doing wrong. I use RODI water, and have even added additional water conditioner after the second death just in case it was something in the water still. Same reason I am running C.

[Myka]

Fwiw, API are perfectly fine test kits. I have found them to give very similar readings to Salifert and Elos.

The description of the dying fish makes me think that the fish either had Brooklynella or Marine Velvet. It would be odd though if the new fish did not pass this on to any of the existing fish. Wild Clownfish are very susceptible to both of these diseases as are Pigmy Angelfish to a bit lesser degree.

I suggest setting up a quarantine tank for new fish so that there is much less risk of a new fish introducing a pathogen. Both Brooklynella and Marine Velvet tend to be VERY contagious.

I also suggest buying captive bred fish whenever possible. In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason for a hobbyist to be buying wild caught Clownfish when they are mass produced as captive bred. You are likely to have much better luck with a captive bred fish.

[reefwars]

My suggestion would be to check the pH of the bags that the fish are in a sudden drop in pH will result in heavy breathing and often fatality Simply dripping is often not good enough

[reefwars]

Sorry I meant a sudden raise

[ReefDruid]

Fwiw, API are perfectly fine test kits. I have found them to give very similar readings to Salifert and Elos.

The description of the dying fish makes me think that the fish either had Brooklynella or Marine Velvet. It would be odd though if the new fish did not pass this on to any of the existing fish. Wild Clownfish are very susceptible to both of these diseases as are Pigmy Angelfish to a bit lesser degree.

I suggest setting up a quarantine tank for new fish so that there is much less risk of a new fish introducing a pathogen. Both Brooklynella and Marine Velvet tend to be VERY contagious.

I also suggest buying captive bred fish whenever possible. In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason for a hobbyist to be buying wild caught Clownfish when they are mass produced as captive bred. You are likely to have much better luck with a captive bred fish.

Yes, the clowns we have that are captive bred have been excellent. We buy tank bred whenever possible, but it isn't always. We will be holding out for a captive bred specimen on this one though.

As for the Brook, there have been no signs of discolouration, mucous or sloughing. Is it possible for Brook to kill something without any other symptoms than the respiratory distress?

My suggestion would be to check the pH of the bags that the fish are in a sudden drop in pH will result in heavy breathing and often fatality Simply dripping is often not good enough

Interesting, and it would seem to fit with the respiratory distress. I will have to test the next bag, or snag an eyedropper full of the LFS water next time I'm there.

I appreciate the responses from both of you, thank-you very much.

[Myka]

As for the Brook, there have been no signs of discolouration, mucous or sloughing. Is it possible for Brook to kill something without any other symptoms than the respiratory distress?

It can simply looks like respiratory distress and usually clamped fins.

It does sound like pH shock too, but I've never seen pH shock from moving fish such a short distance. I've only seen pH shock when fish have been in bags for many hours (like overseas or out of country travel). Maybe for some reason the pH at your LFS is extremely low? pH shock is something that you would observe within 10-45 minutes of introducing the fish. They usually lay on their side gasping and will sometimes dart around sporadically, then lay on their side again. Clownfish aren't overly sensitive to pH shock - Foxfaces, Tangs, and Wrasse are.