Hi all! my first post here

[chicki]

I just found out about this board (thanks stircrazy) Looking forward to meeting you all. Some names I reconize from the other boards!
I have a 180 reef/fish tank set up since March 02
that I'm fighting ich in right at the moment, and a new 200 that I just got the water in thats going to be a fowlr

[EmilyB]

Hi Lynn smile.gif

Hope we can be of some help to you.

[Aquattro]

Originally posted by chicki:
I have a 180 reef/fish tank set up since March 02
that I'm fighting ich in right at the moment, <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I just went thru that in my tank and found soaking the food in garlic helped tremendously. I realize all the controvery over the use of garlic, but hey, it worked for me. It could also work for you. And welcome to the board!

[Troy F]

Welcome to the board!

[kris]

welcome to the board!

[FishGeek]

Welcome fellow Edmonton Reefer! What part of the city do you live at?

Simon

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by chicki:
I just found out about this board (thanks stircrazy) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">um I told you about it when I was in Edmonton and I met you at Aquarium Ilusions with Dez.. hehe smile.gif oh well better lat than never!!!!

Welcome abord Lynn :D

Steve

[Doug]

:D WELCOME :D to Canreef Lynn.

I have seen some of your posts on reefs org. How is the ick battle going. Can be so frustrating at times.

[sumpfinfishe]

Hi Lynn, you will like it here. I just got on last month and I love it, just watch out for the Tang Police lol Welcome! :D :D :D

[BC_Grl]

Welcome to the board! :D

[chicki]

Thanks all!!
I live just south of the city Simon, where are you?
Steve...are you the one that sells frags??
Everytime I go to a fish store I meet someone from the chat lines and I can't seem to keep everyone straight!...I think it's age!LOL
My ich problem is still a problem and I've lost some really special pets, including my beautiful pair of manderins. But the good news is that my two rabbitfish (Russel and Horst) will make it and my lawnmower blenny "Rocky" (one of my very first fish I got) I also think will make it. The majestic (Lola) and the powderblue (Elvis) are in the QT and are improving and eating now. Elvis was so sick that I actually caught him in my 180 with my hands. He would only lay on his side and swim circles the first couple days in quarantine! I couldn't believe he got better!! I added corn syrup! melafix, quick cure and started lowering the salinity. He didn't eat for 6 days and is real thin, but is eating again now. Lola was covered with ich, then got this kinda film all over her including her eyes. When I caught her and was going to put her in the quarantine I wanted to add her really slowly as my salinity was already down to 1.018. I had her in a ice cream gallon jug and left for a minute, when I came back it had tipped and she was in the tank. She went in that condition from 1.025 salinity to 1.018 in minutes!!??? I thought that was the end for her...but no....I'm willing them to live..and its working!! I was even setting my alarm for 3 in the morning to check on them, what for I don't know!LOL (but I always felt better when I did)
It's a terrible lesson to learn. The powderblue was the last fish to add and look what happened!
Although I started out quarantining I thougth "Elvis" would be too stressed so I didn't
bother....what a mistake!!
Anyways now you all know what a nutcase I am, (I'm sure I'm not the only one here)!!LOL
Looking forward to this board!

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by chicki:
Steve...are you the one that sells frags??
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">um nope not me hehe, it was quite a while ago..

Steve

[EmilyB]

Fish have more of a problem reaclimating to higher salinity, than dropping to lower, so take your time.

Where will they go since the main tank was infected? Or is it going to remain fishless for six weeks ?

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Welcome to Canreef.

If it is really ick, then you can feed them garlic laced food. As long as they eat the garlic laced food, this will protect the fish from future ick attacks and they can be placed back in to the main tank when they are healthy.

- Victor.

[EmilyB]

I personally would not reintroduce a skinny PBT to a previously infected tank.

[chicki]

Victor, no offense but I don't believe that for a moment. I have fed garlic and zoe and selco soaked foods to my fish since I set it up. They eat a whole variety of foods all soaked in this 4 times a day. I think that a real good diet (and garlic, vit etc.) definitely helps fish stay healthy and fight off different types of disease's. This garlic thing so far is only hear say, there is no scientific proof that it works. (it obviously didn't on my tank)

What has helped save some fish are the cleaner's, I have cleaner gobies (2) and cleaner wrasses's (2) and 4 cleaner shrimp. The fish that are still alive and doing well are the fish that allow themselves to get cleaned. The PBT and majestic refused to go to any stations, infact when the wrasse wanted to clean Elvis..he would get ticked off and chase the wrasse away!

My plan for the future is to cycle my new 200 and then move the remaining fish ( 2 rabbitfish, 5 chromis, 1 lawnmower, pair of watchmen gobies) to that tank. I'll do the hypo with them and then add the tang and angel. I'll let this tank clean out for 4 weeks, before returning them. I'm just a bit worried about adding the pbt and majestic to "a new tank condition" they like established tanks?? but I don't see any other way out of it.

Have a great day!!

[Troy F]

Chicki, for those of us that don't follow reefs.org often enough to have seen your posts, could you explain your system and what the history has been?

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

No offense taken.

There are studies that have shown how it works...it is not hear say. Trust me...I thought the same way until somebody showed me a paper on it. Maybe you have a garlic resistant strain of ick !

During the initial introduction of fish, they tend not to eat anything for a couple of days and tend to lose their protective slim. So, your PBT may not have gotten its ick rejection slim before its gills were impaired...everything is history after that.

IMHO, I think ick is in all of our tanks. It just takes a small little mistake for the ick to take off and do some damage.

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

Agreed, Victor. I didn't believe the garlic thing for a moment, but after introducing ich into my tank with a tang, I thought "what the heck". I crushed fresh garlic and soaked the nori in the oil. In two days the ich was gone. I stopped at that point and it came back. I fed again and it went away again. I will continue to feed garlic soaked food until I feel the fish are no longer stressed.

[robert]

I second Victor and Brad. I used garlic on my fresh water discuss. What a great stuff.

Victor, I am not sure if ICH is present in our tank all the time. It needs life host to survive its cycle that has 3 stages. If we have ich in our tank for long period of time it means that some of the live organism is infested with it and we just have it under managable control. Fish that has it is not 100% happy. We observe only one stage in our tank, white spots (cysts) on the fish body, that represent very heavy infesting. There is only one stage when ich can be successfully treated. It is free floating stage when it breaks out of its cyst and starts to swim around looking for a host. To protect our fish we need to boost their immune system (garlic works great), keep the stress to minimum. Fish immune system when in full power can handle ich with no problem. Now, once you get it, IMHO, you have to treat the tank (very difficult in reef situation) more than fish. Fish either can survive it or not. You can't help it much when fish has it. While in hosiptal tank being treated with chemicals, we just break development stage of ich. In order to make sure that ich is gone don't make mistake to put fish back when you don't see spots. Keep it in the hospitality tank for at least 3-4 weeks. Some people had success with UV and Ozone filters, and some chemicals, such as malachite green and fomalin. Anyway I am talking more from fresh water experiences. What I learnt from reading so far about salt water ich the only difference is response to the temparture raising treatment, that works miracle in fresh water tank. In saltwater tank it produces oposite results.

Chicki, keep your main tank 6-8 weeks empty (well, fishless), if your problem was ich it should be gone. However, I just came cross article about some lab test on marine ich. Ich was still present in invert. system without fish after 60 days. Exact conditions of system were no provided. Make sure you treat your hospitality tank (repeating treatments) to kill ich completly there as well.

My 2 cents.

[ 19 September 2002, 00:24: Message edited by: pirate ]

[chicki]

Hi,
OK, my set up is 6 months old now. I have a 180 gal, refugium, large UV unit, 4 cleaner shrimp, 2 cleaner gobies, 1 cleaner wrasse (had 2) The powdeblue was the last fish to be added. When I first started out I quarantined fish, but had a terrible time (20 gal) with the water parameters and ended up loosing a fish because of it. I decided after that that I was going to just take my chances in the main tank and was lucky up to now. I figured (like so many) that if my fish were all healthy and were not stressed that they would not "be effected" by the ich. My water parameters were great! I fed 4 times a day (at least) a huge variety of foods always with added garlic, zoe and selco. I had a UV, cleaner shrimp etc. Well I couldn't have been more wrong.
"Elvis" (PBT) was a beautiful specimen, brightly colored and fat. He came into the LFS the night before and was eating right away. I immeditately brought him home. (before he got contaminated??) He paced here for a mere 48 hours and settled right down and within 5 days was eating right out of my hand!! On the eighth day I woke up to a fish with white spots! Since then I've lost these fish in this order...bi-colored blenny, gramma, mated pair of manderins, 2 little clowns.
According to my daughters invert book (this is a unniversity book in which is taught to pre-vet students) I'd imagine it would be right on. It states that cryptocaryon is a abligate parasite. That means it CANNOT survive without a period of growth on a fish (its host). It does not "just exist in a tank" It states- the free swimming parasites burrow into the skin, fins and gills and feed on the body's fluids and cells. The mature parasites emerge from the skin and evolve into an enclosed cyst within a few hours and attach to a solid surface. The cell divides to produce 1000 or more infective stages while inside the cyst. When the freeswimming stages are released upon the cyst breaking open they MUST find a fish host with 24 hours or THEY WILL DIE. This is the cycle.
I do and will continueing feeding garlic soaked feeds... who knows I could have lost more had I not been feeding the garlic?? I've also noticed that some fish are really into getting "cleaned" and some aren't. Elvis and Lola didn't like it and I never saw them getting cleaned...nor any of the fish that were overcome with it. The surviving ones spent a lot of time at the "cleaning stations"??
Robert, I would love to read that article you mentioned.
Have a great day!

[stephane]

Ick is alway present in you tank but mosly not on the fish it stay in the water colum

I have 3 tang in my 130 for severale years it's been a long time since I have not buy a new fish an last summer when I move my tank all fish that where there for severale years caught the ick due to the stess and temperature fluctuation

The best medication I found is do noting but feed them and NEVER try to cath them for a quarantine it will only make it more sick and could even make the fish die because stress is a major factore in fish healt

Here I talk of a reef whith a good water quality if you have this you dont need anyting else

[stephane]

Ho and a cleaner shrimp will elp greatly to get rid of the ick! It's the best medication you could put in your tank + they are so cute and funy!!!!!

[stephane]

Originally posted by chicki:
Hi,

According to my daughters invert book (this is a unniversity book in which is taught to pre-vet students) I'd imagine it would be right on. It states that cryptocaryon is a abligate parasite. That means it CANNOT survive without a period of growth on a fish (its host). It does not "just exist in a tank" It states- the free swimming parasites burrow into the skin, fins and gills and feed on the body's fluids and cells. The mature parasites emerge from the skin and evolve into an enclosed cyst within a few hours and attach to a solid surface. The cell divides to produce 1000 or more infective stages while inside the cyst. When the freeswimming stages are released upon the cyst breaking open they MUST find a fish host with 24 hours or THEY WILL DIE. This is the cycle.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I tink your book is rong because ick have alway find is way in my tank after some stress

Sorry for your lost I realy doubt that ick have kill your healty fish and I tink more of another silent killer that you have not see and introduce whith the last fish

[Aquattro]

Originally posted by stephane:
Ho and a cleaner shrimp will elp greatly to get rid of the ick! It's the best medication you could put in your tank + they are so cute and funy!!!!!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This assumes the shrimp is inclined to clean the fish. Mine isn't.

[chicki]

Sorry Stephanie, but I just don't agree with you at all. But it's always interesting discussing different people's opinions about it! There is also a real good article on it by Terry Siegel in the 2002 marine magizine.
When you moved your tank and fish did you add any liverock or anything like that??
Your idea that only stressed fish get ich doesn't make much sense to me. It's like someone telling me that if I'm not stressed and walk through the woods..then the ticks won't climb on me???? but if I'm stressed then the ticks will get under my skin???

[stephane]

Hey Brad! get that shrimp back or show him a baked shrimp and eat it maybe she will start to work!

[stephane]

Originally posted by chicki:
When you moved your tank and fish did you add any liverock or anything like that??
Your idea that only stressed fish get ich doesn't make much sense to me. It's like someone telling me that if I'm not stressed and walk through the woods..then the ticks won't climb on me???? but if I'm stressed then the ticks will get under my skin???<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No I have not added anyting to the tank not even a snail

I kept saltwater fish for more than ten years and I found that a fish who is stress will alway get some sickness because there imune system will not react + a stressed fish will loose there slimy protection on is skin

I have found that most of the time when someone try to catch a fish quarantine him and try to give medication they mostly die on the other hand if you simply let the fish alone he will most of the time recovert

LFS try to sale all kind of miracle cure but after 10 years Im alway septical and I realy trust more mother nature :D

Dont forget that all medecine agree that stress will kill even a human been in a very short time

[ 19 September 2002, 18:03: Message edited by: stephane ]

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

When fish get sufficiently stressed or water conditions change, the slim that protects the fish will temporarily fall off. Under these conditions, any disease or ick can easily attack the fish with no mercy. Something like a tank change can do that.

Ick is a fairly neat little bug. It is true that Ick can only survive if there is a host. Unless your reef is 100% sterile, there will be enough pods, shrimp and other decaying foods to keep a very small population of ick alive for a very long time. So, it is almost impossible to get rid of ick. I think of it as hair algae or cyano...you think you got them last time, but they are always lurking around for another opportunity. That's my opninon of ick.

- Victor.

[robert]

How is it possible for Stephane to have ich without any new additions to the tank? The following may explain.

"Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) or the equivalent marine form, Cryptocaryon irritans, are protozoan ectoparasites commonly encountered on ornamental fishes. Both parasites can cause significant mortalities especially when fish are in a crowded situation or experiencing various levels of stress. Both protozoans may be present on fish as a carrier state infection, mainly on wild-caught fish or fish that have been cultivated in ponds. The carrier state infection is a rather common condition and a major means for the spread of ich in the aquarium fish trade."
You may read more here (http://library.kcc.hawaii.edu/CTSA/notes/vol11/rnvol11n1.htm).

What a long thread we created :D :D :D My last post on this subject, I promise.

[ 20 September 2002, 00:45: Message edited by: pirate ]

[chicki]

excellent article!! it also backs up exactly what I had said.

[Dez]

Hi Lynn, I'm the one that met you with Stircrazy and the one that sells frags smile.gif . I got in a little late on this conversation eh? He he.... nice to see you on board. I don't have the internet much that's why I haven't been around.

Cheers.

Des