Dipping live rock

[jason604]

Hey just got a bunch of liverock from a fellow reefer that been in his sump for years. Looks clean. Should I just toss it right into my tank or can I use revive dip on it too?

[Coral Hoarder]

Diping stuns not kils well on ocation it kills but normaly it stuns and things get stuck in the rock then recover

[craigwmiller]

If you want the healthy fauna of his 'live' rock, then don't dip it... Live rock is just that, alive with countless micro fauna, dipping it could cause die-off and then huge ammonia/etc leaching :(

You could sorta-quarantine it if you had another tank that didn't have any fish/rock/etc/etc in it (say a dedicated tank for water changes/etc) -- but you'd really only be quarantining for the larger-critters (evil crabs, mantis shrimp, etc), the micro fauna will find it's way into the water column no matter where the rock is put.

I have on 2 occasions taken live rock from tanks that I trusted to not have really bad things in it -- but it's still a risk.

[gregzz4]

If it were me, I'd shake the crap out of it in a bucket to catch/save all the iso/amphi/copepods I could and put them straight into my system

Then I'd put the new LR in a tub or bucket with a heater, powerhead and a loose lid (to block light only, not airflow) for weeks while I looked it over for crabs, mojano, aiptasia; monitor it for phosphates and algae; the list goes on

[jason604]

Too late I just tossed it all in the sump =)

[Aquattro]

Too late I just tossed it all in the sump =)

Rock that's been sitting in a sump for years should have been tossed in the garbage, not your tank.
Greg gave you the best advice if you wanted to actually use it. Although I'm not sure why you got more rock just to add it to your sump.

[ronau]

Rock that's been sitting in a sump for years should have been tossed in the garbage, not your tank.

Curious to why you would say this. I am just setting up my first tank and I was planning to put some rock in my sump so if I do set up another tank, I have a clean source for live rock. Is this a bad idea?

[don.ald]

Why the garbage??

[Aquattro]

Why the garbage??

Rock that is old, especially from a low flow area such as a sump, IMO will be full of crud (PO4). I just removed 3 yo rock from my tank from a high flow area and it was full of crap.
Also, I have to question why the addition of rock is warranted? What purpose does it serve, other than trapping detritus in the sump? Was additional denitrification needed? How was this determined?
Simply adding more rock for the sake of adding more rock seems pointless. More is not better.

[don.ald]

Rock that is old, especially from a low flow area such as a sump, IMO will be full of crud (PO4). I just removed 3 yo rock from my tank from a high flow area and it was full of crap.
Also, I have to question why the addition of rock is warranted? What purpose does it serve, other than trapping detritus in the sump? Was additional denitrification needed? How was this determined?
Simply adding more rock for the sake of adding more rock seems pointless. More is not better.

So, when you remove rock from your system do you cook it and replace or do you purchase new "fresh" rock to replace?

[Aquattro]

So, when you remove rock from your system do you cook it and replace or do you purchase new "fresh" rock to replace?

When I remove rock, it goes in the garden. My line of thought is that rock in a closed system has a finite lifespan. To alleviate this somewhat, I regularly turkey baste the exposed rock to clear the pores.
At the 3 year mark of my tank, 90% of my rock has been replaced. NO3 and PO4 still 0. I have never had measurable amounts of either. Based on that, I'm going to stick to my ideas on old rock :)

[Madreefer]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I've always thought that live rock was an excellent source of a "natural flirtation". I've always kept lots of live rock in my sumps over the years. I won't use filter socks so there there is a build up of detritus in my sump. But all WCs are done in the sump and I vacuum it out with a shopvac every couple of months. I have about 75lbs in my sump right now.

[Aquattro]

Further, I do think you can "recycle" used rock to a degree by cooking, and maybe get a year or three more out of it. Buying new rock is tough, as most LFS that I know of don't have new rock, they have used rock that they buy from people shutting down. So unless you're ordering a fresh box, you may get worse rock than you took out.

[Aquattro]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I've always thought that live rock was an excellent source of a "natural flirtation". I've always kept lots of live rock in my sumps over the years. I won't use filter socks so there there is a build up of detritus in my sump. But all WCs are done in the sump and I vacuum it out with a shopvac every couple of months. I have about 75lbs in my sump right now.

Bill, yes, the rock is filtration, but the amount needed is usually far less than most people add. Between the rock in the display and any sand/substrate, you have more than enough bacteria to filter most tanks. Adding more to the sump isn't required. If you have 0 or near 0 nitrate, you probably don't need more filtration.
Also, the ability to filter nutrients is dependent on the porosity of the rock, and rock that sits in the sump tends to plug up quickly, and therefore becomes useless as a filter. Going one step further, it will eventually begin to leach nutrients back into the system.

[Madreefer]

Ok thanks for the explanation. I'm a picky bastard so I don't let a lot of detritus to build up:lol:

[don.ald]

Further, Buying new rock is tough, as most LFS that I know of don't have new rock, they have used rock that they buy from people shutting down. So unless you're ordering a fresh box, you may get worse rock than you took out.

Funny, this how most of us start out in the hobby. And this old rock isn't cheap! :mrgreen:

[Aquattro]

Funny, this how most of us start out in the hobby. And this old rock isn't cheap! :mrgreen:

Oh, I know. My first big tank, a 150g, had almost 250 pounds of rock. Essentially a sewer with corals. Brown corals :) always had nutrient problems. Once I moved away from the rock pile look and used minimal rock, my tank has never been better.

[jason604]

I got more rock cuz I just got a bunch more sps and ran out of spots to glue them to due to my lack of LR in my display. I tossed them In the sump because I ran out of time last night to rearrange my whole tank plus I put my new pieces in a low light area temp to adjust to my LEDs. The rocks look pretty clean. I guess I can take them out n put in new salt water and blast them hard with a power head a few days then test nitrate n phosphates again before putting it in permanent spots.

[toytech]

Isnt most live rock older than 3 years? How do you know how longs its been in the ocean for . I agree that live rock will build up with crud if you don't have the right fauna to keep it clean but I don't think it expires . If you where really worried about it you could bleach the old rock to dissolve the organics then cure it/ re seed it , but maybe that's just me an im too cheap to throw something away that cost me 4$ a lb .

[don.ald]

Isnt most live rock older than 3 years? How do you know how longs its been in the ocean for . I agree that live rock will build up with crud if you don't have the right fauna to keep it clean but I don't think it expires . If you where really worried about it you could bleach the old rock to dissolve the organics then cure it/ re seed it , but maybe that's just me an im too cheap to throw something away that cost me 4$ a lb .

I agree, most of us don't throw it away. And my rock is the old crud from the LFS:sad: here it costs more than $4lb.
The rock from the ocean is old but it is treated by Mother Nature and doesn't exist in a glass box in artificial salt water.
IMO

[Aquattro]

The rock from the ocean is old but it is treated by Mother Nature and doesn't exist in a glass box in artificial salt water.
IMO

Exactly. Anyone that's ever been swimming around a reef knows the force of flow that the rock gets flushed with. This just doesn't compare to flow in a sump.
I agree that tossing rock out isn't for everyone, and there are things you can do to extend the life of rock. Minimize blockage in rock scaping, allow lots of flow all around the rock. Blast it weekly with a baster or small power head. Make sure you keep nutrients low so that no algae covers the rock, blocking the pores.

As for the OP adding more rock for more coral. Sometimes you just have to accept you have no more room :) That's exactly how I ended up with a 150g with 250 pounds of rock. Added more rock, got more coral. Repeat. When I tore that down, I was so disgusted with what was under the rock, I swore I'd never build like that again. I have a much nicer tank now than I did then.

[jason604]

My rock work only goes up to half of my tank so I think I need more for higher light demanding sps =). Each water change I stick my turkey blaster in between the base n blast all that junk out. Here's a pic to justify.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b578/kosin604/F8BCEDEB-93CC-49F3-B725-4A834ED0EDF4-10924-000008905E71F627_zps1fd6352c.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kosin604/media/F8BCEDEB-93CC-49F3-B725-4A834ED0EDF4-10924-000008905E71F627_zps1fd6352c.jpg.html)

Exactly. Anyone that's ever been swimming around a reef knows the force of flow that the rock gets flushed with. This just doesn't compare to flow in a sump.
I agree that tossing rock out isn't for everyone, and there are things you can do to extend the life of rock. Minimize blockage in rock scaping, allow lots of flow all around the rock. Blast it weekly with a baster or small power head. Make sure you keep nutrients low so that no algae covers the rock, blocking the pores.

As for the OP adding more rock for more coral. Sometimes you just have to accept you have no more room :) That's exactly how I ended up with a 150g with 250 pounds of rock. Added more rock, got more coral. Repeat. When I tore that down, I was so disgusted with what was under the rock, I swore I'd never build like that again. I have a much nicer tank now than I did then.

[Aquattro]

My rock work only goes up to half of my tank so I think I need more for higher light demanding sps =).



No, I'd say your rock is plenty high enough. You need room for the corals to grow.

[jason604]

But they not "growing" haha. Got 10 more sps and I need to put them in place without them touching each other. I guess it's time I take my family's advice on "you have enough corals!"

[Aquattro]

But they not "growing" haha.

Too many nutrients from all that rock you tossed in the sump :)

[don.ald]

No, I'd say your rock is plenty high enough. You need room for the corals to grow.

Is there a poll on how many lbs of rock per gal?

[Ryanerickson]

The rock Jason is talking about is from my system I have a 55 gallon sump that is hooked up to a reef flow baracuda the flow in the sump is very strong. Also for water changes once a week the sump gets 100% drained and filled back up in less then 3 minutes. Because of the high flow in my sump there is zero debri in it about 50% off the rock is 3/4 to 100% encrusted in sponge. I totally disagree with getting rid of old rock I actually think a lot of my success with sps is because of all the rock in my system and it's only getting better with age. The pieces I gave Jason were a bunch of smaller pieces as he requested I made sure not to give away my sponge though as he wanted pieces for his display. The rock will not hurt your display and I don't see any reason not to ad a bit more up top. Last month I hooked nick (slyguy00) with 30-40 pounds for his new tank it all went in his display his tank is proof alone that it's healthy he had no algae bloom and only pest he found was one little acro crab zero aptasia! Hope you don't waste such nice rock in your sump Jason By the way thanks for the corals.

[Aquattro]

Is there a poll on how many lbs of rock per gal?

Actually, there may have been one :)

[Ryanerickson]

By the way my system has .5 -1ppm nitrate and unreadable phosphate as of yesterday.

[Aquattro]

The rock Jason is talking about is from my system I have a 55 gallon sump that is hooked up to a reef flow baracuda the flow in the sump is very strong. Also for water changes once a week the sump gets 100% drained and filled back up in less then 3 minutes. Because of the high flow in my sump there is zero debri in it about 50% off the rock is 3/4 to 100% encrusted in sponge. I totally disagree with getting rid of old rock I actually think a lot of my success with sps is because of all the rock in my system and it's only getting better with age. The pieces I gave Jason were a bunch of smaller pieces as he requested I made sure not to give away my sponge though as he wanted pieces for his display. The rock will not hurt your display and I don't see any reason not to ad a bit more up top. Last month I hooked nick (slyguy00) with 30-40 pounds for his new tank it all went in his display his tank is proof alone that it's healthy he had no algae bloom and only pest he found was one little acro crab zero aptasia! Hope you don't waste such nice rock in your sump Jason By the way thanks for the corals.

I'm sure there are a lot of people that agree with you, and sure, tanks are dying all over the place from rock poisoning :) but, I've done SPS many different ways, and so far the current way has been the most successful. This is of course a YMMV thing, and if what you're doing is working AND you're happy with it, then by all means keep doing it.

My comments are more of an opinion based commentary designed to get people to think about what rock does and does not. I'm not trying to encourage people to throw rock out, but from my experience with SPS reefs, less is more. Fresh and clean is more efficient than old and dirty.

But as always, what works for me and works for you can be totally different and neither needs to be "wrong"

[Aquattro]

By the way my system has .5 -1ppm nitrate and unreadable phosphate as of yesterday.

To be clear, this was in no way an attack on your personal rock, just used rock in general, and accumulating too much of it "just because" :)

[Ryanerickson]

Lol no worries and I agree with the clean is better comment if anything was building up crud or getting dirty looking it would be gone I just would hate to see good rock be wasted :biggrin:

[jason604]

Lol I only put those beautiful pieces in the sump for now till I have more time this weekend to rearrange my rock work. Also gives time the those amazing pieces u gave me to acclimate to my lights. They look awesome under my LEDs!!
Are acro crabs bad? I did find a lot of baby snail with white and purple strips

The rock Jason is talking about is from my system I have a 55 gallon sump that is hooked up to a reef flow baracuda the flow in the sump is very strong. Also for water changes once a week the sump gets 100% drained and filled back up in less then 3 minutes. Because of the high flow in my sump there is zero debri in it about 50% off the rock is 3/4 to 100% encrusted in sponge. I totally disagree with getting rid of old rock I actually think a lot of my success with sps is because of all the rock in my system and it's only getting better with age. The pieces I gave Jason were a bunch of smaller pieces as he requested I made sure not to give away my sponge though as he wanted pieces for his display. The rock will not hurt your display and I don't see any reason not to ad a bit more up top. Last month I hooked nick (slyguy00) with 30-40 pounds for his new tank it all went in his display his tank is proof alone that it's healthy he had no algae bloom and only pest he found was one little acro crab zero aptasia! Hope you don't waste such nice rock in your sump Jason By the way thanks for the corals.

[pinkreef]

A wrasse should eat up those snails for you :biggrin:

[Ryanerickson]

The little snails are reef safe btw if you like them.

[asylumdown]

I think there's value in both approaches, replacing vs. keeping. The condition of the rock and how it will impact a system over time can be affected by so many different things over the course of a few years, most of which you'll never be able to really test for in any significant way.

As a general rule I look at rock that's in systems that have never had algae problems (or haven't had them in many months/years), and have always been actively maintained to have very low dissolved nutrients as being less likely to be a source of problems. Rock that's spent time in nutrient laden waters and/or supporting lush macro algae growth are more likely to cause you issues and likely require cooking, maybe even following bleaching or a treatment with muriatic acid. If it's from a sump where there's no light, I'd look at the condition of the rocks in the tank above to try and get an idea of what sort of nutrient regime those rocks have been exposed to over time.

However, for me personally, if it was just to increase real estate for corals in my own tank and my tank was already up, running, and stable, I would probably just go with dead marco or fiji rock that had been cooked for a few weeks. Not sure why you'd need live rock from another system when the dead stuff will eventually end up as live after a few months in an already matured system. The risks of adding rock from another system unless there's a specific reason to do it outweigh any potential benefit compared to using dead rock IMO, regardless of how pristine the original system was.

If this is a new set up and this is 100% of your rock, then it's a totally different story. Getting rock from someone else's sump, assuming that sump and system in general are well maintained is probably a whole lots safer than getting rock from a fish store holding tank. You'll have an instantly cycled tank with cured rock, and you'll know the history of the rock and what it's potential issues might be. Rock from holding tanks are a total crap shoot, and I shudder to think what a test for nitrate and phosphate in one of those bins would return.

[jason604]

I got rocks from him from convienience cuz I got a bunch of frags from him. Anyways, I thought u can't put dry rock into an established tank because it will cause a "new tank syndrome"

I think there's value in both approaches, replacing vs. keeping. The condition of the rock and how it will impact a system over time can be affected by so many different things over the course of a few years, most of which you'll never be able to really test for in any significant way.

As a general rule I look at rock that's in systems that have never had algae problems (or haven't had them in many months/years), and have always been actively maintained to have very low dissolved nutrients as being less likely to be a source of problems. Rock that's spent time in nutrient laden waters and/or supporting lush macro algae growth are more likely to cause you issues and likely require cooking, maybe even following bleaching or a treatment with muriatic acid. If it's from a sump where there's no light, I'd look at the condition of the rocks in the tank above to try and get an idea of what sort of nutrient regime those rocks have been exposed to over time.

However, for me personally, if it was just to increase real estate for corals in my own tank and my tank was already up, running, and stable, I would probably just go with dead marco or fiji rock that had been cooked for a few weeks. Not sure why you'd need live rock from another system when the dead stuff will eventually end up as live after a few months in an already matured system. The risks of adding rock from another system unless there's a specific reason to do it outweigh any potential benefit compared to using dead rock IMO, regardless of how pristine the original system was.

If this is a new set up and this is 100% of your rock, then it's a totally different story. Getting rock from someone else's sump, assuming that sump and system in general are well maintained is probably a whole lots safer than getting rock from a fish store holding tank. You'll have an instantly cycled tank with cured rock, and you'll know the history of the rock and what it's potential issues might be. Rock from holding tanks are a total crap shoot, and I shudder to think what a test for nitrate and phosphate in one of those bins would return.

[asylumdown]

How do you define 'new tank syndrome'?

Are you talking about a spike in ammonia? That's only possible if the rocks you're putting in have lots of dead stuff on them. Marco rocks have very little on them that could cause an ammonia spike, but some of the dry fiji rock that I've seen looks like it might.

That can be mitigated by letting them sit in salt water for a week or so, but if it was a small amount of rock relative to the system, and the system was mature, I'm not sure I'd even bother doing that. A mature system has many different pathways for dealing with ammonia, and it's capacity is pretty elastic. It's why you don't see ammonia spikes every time you add a new fish to a mature system.

Anyway I'm pretty relaxed about most of this stuff, so other people might disagree, and it is technically possible for other things your don't want to leach out of the rock like phosphates, or to cause a spike in nitrates, so it's never bad advice to say let it cure in a bucket of salt water with a power head for a week or two, but that's about as far as I'd go. If you did that, you're pretty much guaranteed for it's measurable effect on your system, other than increasing real estate, to be nil.

ETA: the only other effect of adding dry dead rock to a system that I've read about is some sort of temporary impact on alkalinity. Not sure of the chemistry behind it or if it would be a big deal if it actually happened, but that too could be mitigated by soaking the rocks in salt water for a week or two first.