TM balling webinar synopsis

[Aqua-Digital]

Many thanks to those that joined our webinar.

One of the highly important topics that came up was the question of imbalances and as the slide show was clear to show, once explained it makes so much sense. I will try my best to put some of that info here.

If anyone highlights an inaccuracy to what I have written please let me know and I will happily address that in the thread openly.

Hearing about the relationship between the ions of Calcium chloride and sodium Bi-carbonate was fascinating especially how the coral polyp takes in the calcium ion from the calcium chloride element and the carbonate ion from the sodium element and what is left behind is your imbalance.

Left behind is sodium from the Bi-carbonate and chloride from the calcium, these two together of course make sodium chloride, and here lies the imbalance in 3 part, all of a sudden you have extra sodium chloride with no other elements attached to it floating around in your tank, and by doing a water change you are only removing the percentage of that water change of the imbalance.

So if you are dosing 2 or 3 part light systems and rely on water changes alone to address the imbalance you are only removing for example on a 10% water change, 10% of that imbalance.

Now - by adding into the mix Part C the remaining sodium chloride has something to balance it which includes the 70 trace elements

Now of course there is an argument that this system too raises your sodium chloride level, and yes you are right, BUT and here is the defining factor, it is doing it in a balanced format in the same way you would be doing by adding more sea salt to your system, because it is balanced there is no ionic risks, and even the most minimal water change would cater for any salinity rise, however due to being in balance and such a very low level this is not an issue, where as an unbalanced system with just sodium chloride floating about is.

What is an issue however are 3 part or light systems that allow for free amounts of sodium chloride in your system with nothing to balance it allowing for a complete imbalance that can not be addressed wholly by water changes as you only remove the % of water change and as such only remove that % of imbalance.

There is only one way to keep a system in balance when dosing calcium and sodium Bi-carbonate and that is to add in proportion NACL free salt. (Part C)

To make the point clearer, the very first original Sea Salt mix from Tropic marin that still to this day forms the basis of all their salts is a 100% mixture of A B and C of the Tropic Marin Balling system together!

So there is no argument chemistry in itself proves it, if you dose a system with nothing to balance the excess NACL you create an imbalance, and this is where part C comes in which is made up of everythign you find in a sea salt mix including all trace elements without adding additional NACL, hence the term for part C as NACL-FREE sea salt. But lets be clear Part C is not just magnesium as in every other other 3 part system, it is the whole bells and whistles found in sea salt as stated before WITHOUT any NACL component.

This is why Tropic marin balling from the inventor Hans-werner balling is so popular to those that care about doing this 100% right.

[IanWR]

To make the point clearer, the very first original Sea Salt mix from Tropic marin that still to this day forms the basis of all their salts is a 100% mixture of A B and C of the Tropic Marin Balling system together!

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I am still on the steep part of the learning curve. If parts A+B+C=salt mix, could you just not dose anything and do larger water changes to achieve the same result?

[Aqua-Digital]

Good question and yes if you want to do near 100% water changes a week but even then you would still get depletion of trace elements in between the water changes where as with the TM system these vastly depleted elements are re introduced to your system on a daily basis through dosing.

Something also to remember you need the free NACL in your tank combined with the ABC to make up NSW not just ABC alone. I missed that point in the quote from your post. So NSW is essentially NACL + ABC (in specific proportions)

[Ron99]

But one could also use other trace element supplements along with simple two part dosing to accomplish essentially the same thing.

[Aqua-Digital]

No sorry 100% incorrect.

Do you know exactly what trace elements are in sea salt exactly and to what required proportion? The whole purpose is to have a balanced system, you cant juggle multiple solutions hoping to get it somewhere roughly right, and by the time you have done all that you might of well spent the money on the proper system.

Many are not even available as an independent system.

[Ron99]

I'm pretty sure I can come up with plenty of information on what trace elements are in sea salt and how they are consumed etc. There's no magic there. There are plenty of companies selling trace element supplements of various sorts. Complete or not.

I know you are selling this stuff and it's your job to promote it but let's not pretend there is some special magic in the Tropic Marin system. It's Calcium Chloride, Sodium Bicarbonate and a trace element solution. And honestly, every Ca and Alk supplement on the market are ridiculously overpriced, probably overly dilute and can be replicated easily at home for much less money.

I'm not trying to make this a dig on the Tropic Marin product which is probably good and does the job but you are making it sound like super magical solutions to maintaining our reef chemistry that can't be accomplished with other products and I think there are many ways to accomplish the same thing.

[Aqua-Digital]

But once you have gone to all that effort to try and cobble together all these elements it will cost you probably double what a set of Tropic marin would and then you have to go to all the effort to try and make it work, is it really worth it trying to do it DIY hoping you may save some money which ultimately after all that effort I am pretty confident you would not.

But for sure please post here your DIY recipe and costs it would be a great exercise.

Nobody is pretending its magic, its reef chemistry, nature sets the rules not us, there is no magic here, I think you would find the seminar very informative to be honest if you think this is all marketing magic

[Aqua-Digital]

The basics are when you dose 2 part you are left with sodium chloride as explained above, this imbalances your system. The cure to this is not magic, its basic reef chemistry.

extra sodium chloride is not good, so it needs to be balanced NACL sea salt does this for you. Again wheres the magic here? This is not a marketing made up product, the end result of the product is NSW.

[Aqua-Digital]

For anyone that fancies the gauntlet of making their own I thought I would share this ;)

Of course you dont need the NCL as that's the part you are trying to balance

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1520646_566604533417995_1348707085_n.jpg

[mrhasan]

Hows the dosing done Michael? Because to have one sodium ion for every chloride ion, there has to be a ratio of 110.98g of CaCl for every 84.007g of CaHCO (molar masses). Does that satisfy the aprox 10ppm of calcium consumption every 2dkh of alk drop? Because if that amount of grams are not maintained, there will either more be more sodium ions or more chloride ions with an end result of being imbalance.

[Aqua-Digital]

You should have joined the webinar :mrgreen:

The system comes with a simple mixing ration you follow per 1 USA gallon, you then dose this by a doser.

Part C must be the same dosing rate as I think its part B, but I will double check this for you.

[mrhasan]

You should have joined the webinar :mrgreen:

The system comes with a simple mixing ration you follow per 1 USA gallon, you then dose this by a doser.

Part C must be the same dosing rate as I think its part B, but I will double check this for you.

I would have loved to but pulling a 12hrs every day at the university is not an easy work.:razz:

Yah that's what I was thinking: it should come with a specific mixing ratio which cannot be changed for the theory to work. And I am guessing the ratio also maintains 2dkh to 10ppm. Right?

[Aqua-Digital]

Here are the dosing instructions and recommended concentrations

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1518905_566614273417021_1912826509_o.jpg

When trying to find issue with the system and I am sure many here will try to, remember the person that invented this is still regarded as the leading author on this subject who has world wide respect and acclaim in the industry, he would have in the last nearly 30 years been fielded every possible scenario.

I do not pertain to know all the real critical details but I can give you the phone number of the person that does ;) However what we will lay out here in this thread is the important facts that the average hobbyist will understand. if they still do not then please join the next webinar.

If anyone has doubts I will put you in direct contact.

[Aqua-Digital]

The "additional" trace elements are those above and beyond what is found in NSW which are seen as beneficial elements to your corals also. They are an addition.

[The Codfather]

You should have joined the webinar :mrgreen:

The system comes with a simple mixing ration you follow per 1 USA gallon, you then dose this by a doser.

Part C must be the same dosing rate as I think its part B, but I will double check this for you.

That's what I understood as well Michael, you have to dose C the same rate as B.

[mrhasan]

Quick Q: you have to dose 125ml of A and 125ml of B at the same time or multiple of that right depending on the depletion rate? Or can the amount of ml of each solution be changed? I can understand you have to dose the same amount of B and C (x ml) but what about A and B?

[jorjef]

I haven't been following all that closely so excuse me if this question has been answered. Is this system available? Have any been distributed to retailers and what is the approximate start up cost ?

[Ron99]

For anyone that fancies the gauntlet of making their own I thought I would share this ;)

Of course you dont need the NCL as that's the part you are trying to balance

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1520646_566604533417995_1348707085_n.jpg

So are you suggesting part C contains all of the above?!? And if so then that would be exceedingly difficult to do unless mixing it up in extremely large batches as some of those elements really are "trace" elements. Additionally, many are not necessary for the health of our reef inhabitants. So it's not like that chart is a compilation of what is in part c; or any synthetic salt for that matter.

I understand completely what you are saying about balanced dosing and imbalances that may occur depending on how elements are being consumed and then dosed. The point I am trying to make is that, while the TM products may very well be good and an easy solution , I think it's fair to say that the same thing could be accomplished with other dosing regimens and other trace element solutions that contain the elements that are consumed and used by corals etc.

I just think it's a bit of marketing speak to suggest that only Tropic Marin provides a balanced dosing solution and by doing it other ways you are creating or feeding an imbalance. That may be true if someone is only dosing two part or two part plus Mg. But I suspect most dose other trace element complexes as well from numerous other brands and we don't see reef tanks using other products crashing left right and center or going wildly out of balance all over the place.

Sure, the TM products may very well be a good and easy solution but other options exist to do essentially the same thing and they don't involve mixing up your own trace element complexes one element at a time etc.

Just to reiterate, I'm not knocking the TM solution as I'm sure it works as advertised. Just trying to have a balanced view as to what it's accomplishing and how it might compare to other options.

[Ron99]

And just to add one thing, some of the trace elements listed in your chart would also be extremely expensive and or controlled materials so they are unlikely to be found in the part c complex.

[Aqua-Digital]

I haven't been following all that closely so excuse me if this question has been answered. Is this system available? Have any been distributed to retailers and what is the approximate start up cost ?

Hiya

For your area Bayside has it and another big shipment just left, I think Pats pets may have it also but I know he was runnign low and off sick right now so have not been able to touch base with him.

Wais aquarium has it, so does aquaurium illusions, Concepts has it coming in and a few other stores in the region.

[Aqua-Digital]

Quick Q: you have to dose 125ml of A and 125ml of B at the same time or multiple of that right depending on the depletion rate? Or can the amount of ml of each solution be changed? I can understand you have to dose the same amount of B and C (x ml) but what about A and B?

A and B you adjust to meet your tanks requirements.

There is a reason why this does not effect any balance it was explained last night but my mind is fried right now, but drop an email here and Lou will explain all

office@tropicmarin-usa.com

[mrhasan]

A and B you adjust to meet your tanks requirements.

There is a reason why this does not effect any balance it was explained last night but my mind is fried right now, but drop an email here and Lou will explain all

office@tropicmarin-usa.com

Thanks Michael. I will try to email this weekend when I get some time. I understand the chemistry behind it but I still have some questions :razz:

[Aqua-Digital]

And just to add one thing, some of the trace elements listed in your chart would also be extremely expensive and or controlled materials so they are unlikely to be found in the part c complex.

Hi Ron,
You either believe in the worlds respected author on the subject or not, we cant make anyone not be skeptical, you are basing these arguments on skepticism rather than any facts, we are just highlighting actual facts here.

Put it another way, Hans-werner would not be in the position he is today if half you said was actually true, we have to be realistic to his years of credentials. I could understand being skeptical if this was some new funky product from an unheard of guy but this is coming from the man himself so many have tried to copy since.

I can only suggest you join the next seminar, you can then ask all the questions directly. I really cant say anymore than that.

[Aqua-Digital]

Thanks Michael. I will try to email this weekend when I get some time. I understand the chemistry behind it but I still have some questions :razz:

For sure Lou is very reachable, he also welcomes phone calls if that's better for you.

[mrhasan]

For sure Lou is very reachable, he also welcomes phone calls if that's better for you.

Its alright. I am an email guy :mrgreen:

[Aqua-Digital]

In the new year Hans-Werner is doing an online hosted RECORDED seminar for everyone to refer back to, we should be one of the first to have a copy of this and will post it here the moment we get it.

I will advertise the next LIVE seminar for the first week of January, I will try and shoot for a Sunday evening.

[Ron99]

Hi Ron,
You either believe in the worlds respected author on the subject or not, we cant make anyone not be skeptical, you are basing these arguments on skepticism rather than any facts, we are just highlighting actual facts here.

Put it another way, Hans-werner would not be in the position he is today if half you said was actually true, we have to be realistic to his years of credentials. I could understand being skeptical if this was some new funky product from an unheard of guy but this is coming from the man himself so many have tried to copy since.

I can only suggest you join the next seminar, you can then ask all the questions directly. I really cant say anymore than that.

Now you are distracting from the point by simply trying to tout HWB's credentials. Those aren't being questioned. And don't take this as a dig at him but I've seen plenty of products with other well respected people's names on them that delivered less than promised. So simply having a name on it shouldn't be an automatic pass.

Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational but by posting a chart of all the trace elements found in NSW and implying that that is what HWB and TM are providing in this dosing solution is disingenuous. There is no way that he is including elements such as mercury, lead, uranium, gold, platinum, thorium, osmium, hafnium etc.

Also inert gasses such as He, Ar, Ne etc are found in trace amounts in sea water because they dissolve from our atmosphere but have no biological function as well and I doubt you will find those in Part C. Shall I go on?

I have extensive experience in chemistry and biochemistry. I'm not disputing his premise that simple two part dosing may lead to imbalances in important trace elements or in NaCl. What I am saying is that there are several ways to skin a cat and that two or three part dosing along with other brands of trace element solutions that contain those trace elements know to be important to, and used by, corals etc. can accomplish a similar result. That's it.

I guess I just have a problem with the suggestion that only the TM solution will get you to the right end point. I'm sure it works as advertised. That's not being questioned. But other options may work just as well. That's my point.

This hobby tends to be so fad and trend driven with many people chasing the latest thing or product as if it's the holy grail that will give them beautiful successful reef tanks. The implication from all your various posts and threads is that the TM Balling method supplements are the one and only way to accomplish balanced dosing. I'm just suggesting that other options might work too.

That and I'm calling BS on your implication that the TM product contains all of the above from your chart. :biggrin:

[reeferfulton]

Think for me it may boil down to cost. Which I can't seem to find yet.

What I learned last night is that part c is all the ingredients normally found in there own salt buckets, less the salt.
So I am waiting for people to just use standard 2 part bulk. And tropic Marin part c
Isn't that still balanced?
They only question that remains is if you believe that TM part a, b are of better purity then bulk.

That's what I am trying to decide

[Aqua-Digital]

Now you are distracting from the point by simply trying to tout HWB's credentials. Those aren't being questioned. And don't take this as a dig at him but I've seen plenty of products with other well respected people's names on them that delivered less than promised. So simply having a name on it shouldn't be an automatic pass.

Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational but by posting a chart of all the trace elements found in NSW and implying that that is what HWB and TM are providing in this dosing solution is disingenuous. There is no way that he is including elements such as mercury, lead, uranium, gold, platinum, thorium, osmium, hafnium etc.

Also inert gasses such as He, Ar, Ne etc are found in trace amounts in sea water because they dissolve from our atmosphere but have no biological function as well and I doubt you will find those in Part C. Shall I go on?

I have extensive experience in chemistry and biochemistry. I'm not disputing his premise that simple two part dosing may lead to imbalances in important trace elements or in NaCl. What I am saying is that there are several ways to skin a cat and that two or three part dosing along with other brands of trace element solutions that contain those trace elements know to be important to, and used by, corals etc. can accomplish a similar result. That's it.

I guess I just have a problem with the suggestion that only the TM solution will get you to the right end point. I'm sure it works as advertised. That's not being questioned. But other options may work just as well. That's my point.

This hobby tends to be so fad and trend driven with many people chasing the latest thing or product as if it's the holy grail that will give them beautiful successful reef tanks. The implication from all your various posts and threads is that the TM Balling method supplements are the one and only way to accomplish balanced dosing. I'm just suggesting that other options might work too.

That and I'm calling BS on your implication that the TM product contains all of the above from your chart. :biggrin:

UG Ron, read the post, I said this is what is found in NSW not what is found in Part C of course some elements are not there, the ones that either cant be replicated in any sea salt mixture. common sense, please if we are going to have any debate.

As I said before Ron go for it brother fill ya boots show us your DIY system that can do this, when you have produced a part C with everything in it that NSW has minus the NACL and show us the recipe, I think this is a mute point. :mrgreen:

If your point is other options may work as well, then yes providing they match what is in part C then you are 100% right.

Nobody has said TM has the exclusive on this, its about doing it right, 3 part is not doing it right where the 3rd part is just MG, thats the whole purpose of this thread.

[Aqua-Digital]

Think for me it may boil down to cost. Which I can't seem to find yet.

What I learned last night is that part c is all the ingredients normally found in there own salt buckets, less the salt.
So I am waiting for people to just use standard 2 part bulk. And tropic Marin part c
Isn't that still balanced?
They only question that remains is if you believe that TM part a, b are of better purity then bulk.

That's what I am trying to decide

Cost = $49.99 for a starter set. My starter set in my 120 gallon has lasted 6 months, thus far on light loaded tank but increasing.

[Aqua-Digital]

Think for me it may boil down to cost. Which I can't seem to find yet.

What I learned last night is that part c is all the ingredients normally found in there own salt buckets, less the salt.
So I am waiting for people to just use standard 2 part bulk. And tropic Marin part c
Isn't that still balanced?
They only question that remains is if you believe that TM part a, b are of better purity then bulk.

That's what I am trying to decide

Hiya

sorry I did not answer all your excellent parts. they all are very valid.

You are completely right the people doing their own 2 part if they add part C then yes you are balancing the equation and as such doing it right.

You are also 100% correct in the purity factor, TM is as pure as you could get, if this is important to you that you know based on the companies ethics that you are getting the best possible salts then TM offer you the kit in an easy to buy solution.

If purity is not a concern to you then go ahead use any 2 part you like just add the part C to the equation.

However when deciding to save a few dollars on cheap off the shelf salts, remember how much you have spent in live stock over a year, high end equipment to keep that live stock going, do you really want to risk that investment on cheap salts? You maybe saving $50 a year but risking $5000 of investment in stock.

The salts are one of the life bloods to your system, you are happy to spend $$$ on a coral so why not on a product to keep that coral healthy?

Ultimately only you can decide what you feel you should risk and spend your money on, but if you go cheap at least add Part C which for 1kg is only going to cost you around $20 and last months.

[Aqua-Digital]

I will also add, if you are doing a different 3 part right now, either remove the Mg and replace with part C (which container MG in proportion).

This is not all about TM balling being the ONLY way, its about doing Hans-werner ballings method, how you skin that cat is up to you, what other salts you use is up to you, but the important factor to all this IS

PART C

TM offer an off the shelf system with all elements, or they offer an off the shelf separated parts, you choose what you want from there.

But if you are going to dose minerals this way, lets do it right - Balanced ;)

[mrhasan]

I will also add, if you are doing a different 3 part right now, either remove the Mg and replace with part C or reduce your Mg dosing significantly and add Part C to you equation in a different container, however you will likely (if your system is balanced correctly) no longer require the Mg mix.

This is not all about TM balling being the ONLY way, its about doing Hans-werner ballings method, how you skin that cat is up to you, what other salts you use is up to you, but the important factor to all this IS

PART C

TM offer an off the shelf system with all elements, or they offer an off the shelf separated parts, you choose what you want from there.

But if you are going to dose minerals this way, lets do it right - Balanced ;)

That is something that I said in another thread that got closed :razz: Getting your own phamacetical grade CaCl and NaHCO3 and adding part 3 should be equal to complete balling :razz: But you didn't say anything on that :twised:

[Aqua-Digital]

I did not really want to have these threads open, DIY 2 part is a heated subject, a few people that follow it do tend to get upset when you point out their cheap or out of balance way more to the point is actually not correct and potentially damaging, as such we decided to go down a more info type of post, where people could then contact us directly should they want further info, just to stop the crazy off the wall debates that we often see.

However I thought I would try just keeping this one open see how it went, so far 90% ok ;) Lots of good questions and answers.

It seems I missed your question or reply which I am sorry about, but yes you are 100% right as above stated, if you can find your own pure salt, then yer for sure go for it, but not everyone wants to store such large quantities you have to buy from the producers and there is a risk of moisture getting to it, as it will soak up humidity in the air, large quantities have to be used quickly just as with small amounts.

So if this is the way you wish to go I will happily supply all day Part C to everyone that wants to do Balling right. Part C is by far not expensive, goes a long way and you know then you are doing things correctly.

[Aqua-Digital]

There is one other caveat, other companies may too offer an NACL free salt mix, but does it have all the trace elements that make up NSW? If it does not then you still do not have a balanced system. I "personally" do not know of one that does, some others state you have to add 3 different additives to the other salt mixes to add essential elements, but even then it is likely not all of the 70+ required elements are being added, and are you even then getting the right ratio? With TM its a one shot system, the guessing is removed and the cost reduced due to not requiring to add other parts. This is where TM do seem to have the edge. Hans-werner who makes it for TM is not going to short change his own invention so you have reliability in his own research with this product.

Thats the golden nugget to this.

One other small point if you use other parties A and B salts is that you then have to figure out the ratio of strength to get it right, but with TM system all this is done for you.

Only you guys can decide if the small saving is worth all that.

[mrhasan]

There is one other caveat, other companies may too offer an NACL free salt mix, but does it have all the trace elements that make up NSW? If it does not then you still do not have a balanced system. I "personally" do not know of one that does, some others state you have to add 3 different additives to the other salt mixes to add essential elements, but even then it is likely not all of the 70+ required elements are being added, and are you even then getting the right ratio? With TM its a one shot system, the guessing is removed and the cost reduced due to not requiring to add other parts. This is where TM do seem to have the edge. Hans-werner who makes it for TM is not going to short change his own invention so you have reliability in his own research with this product.

Thats the golden nugget to this.

One other small point if you use other parties A and B salts is that you then have to figure out the ratio of strength to get it right, but with TM system all this is done for you.

Only you guys can decide if the small saving is worth all that.

Well instead of using randy's receipe, if someone just create the mixes according to the doc you posted, they should be getting something closer to what TM's balling is; maybe not 100% accurate but hey, some sacrifices have to be made ;) I wouldn't mind trying part C since it kind of makes sense now :) I would consider it more as "adding traces with one powder" instead of all the ionic balances. Fancy words make things look crazy :lol:

[Madreefer]

I can't believe we've managed to keep our tanks alive for so long without this stuff. I'm pretty confident using the cheap salt as you call it.

[BlueTang<3]

I can't believe we've managed to keep our tanks alive for so long without this stuff. I'm pretty confident using the cheap salt as you call it.


I jumped in this bandwagon bill :wink: calcium reactor leaked one too many times. As soon as my salts come in ill post some pics of the new dosing setup.

[Ron99]

There is one other caveat, other companies may too offer an NACL free salt mix, but does it have all the trace elements that make up NSW? If it does not then you still do not have a balanced system. I "personally" do not know of one that does, some others state you have to add 3 different additives to the other salt mixes to add essential elements, but even then it is likely not all of the 70+ required elements are being added, and are you even then getting the right ratio? With TM its a one shot system, the guessing is removed and the cost reduced due to not requiring to add other parts. This is where TM do seem to have the edge. Hans-werner who makes it for TM is not going to short change his own invention so you have reliability in his own research with this product.

Thats the golden nugget to this.

One other small point if you use other parties A and B salts is that you then have to figure out the ratio of strength to get it right, but with TM system all this is done for you.

Only you guys can decide if the small saving is worth all that.

Well perhaps you could provide a list of exactly what trace elements are in part C? In one post you state that of course it doesn't have ALL the trace elements from NSW but then in this quote you again imply that the TM Part C does have everything that makes up NSW but others don't.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be skeptical but simply trying to achieve clarity here. That big list of all the trace elements in NSW is highly unlikely to all be found in any supplement. TM's or another brand's. It's just not possible, likely, or practical. So TM Part C will have the "essential" trace elements just as several other products likely do.

What I am trying to understand is what makes TM's Balling Part C different and/or superior to trace element products from say KZ or Brightwell or Kent or Thrive etc?

As for the purity of DIY CA or alk etc, let's not get ridiculous. Pretty much any decent DIY source or mix will be more than pure enough for aquarium use. Arm and Hammer baking soda is pure enough. Epsom Salts are pure enough for Mg. Many have used those for years without negative consequences. Anything good enough for human use or consumption is good enough. Even several sidewalk de-icers are more than pure enough sources of CaCl for our uses. And the savings can be quite significant as most of the Ca and Alk supplements I have seen are fairly dilute and expensive in comparison to the amount of say CaCl you can get for DIY supplements or in comparison to using Arm and Hammer baking soda etc. Epsom salts are cheap too for dosing Mg.

Again, I'm not saying that the product isn't good. I may consider using Part C with DIY CaCl and Baking Soda. But I might also, for example, consider KZ's Sea Water Complex All in One which appears to be quite similar.

[Aqua-Digital]

Hi Ron

Yes Part C has everything you will find in a properly balanced sea salt mix other than NACL. I will see if TM will release the full list, they may not due to obvious commercial reasons.

If other brands of NACL free sea salt mix (part C) have all the same trace elements then yes for sure, as I said there is no exclusive over this but as yet I have not found or been shown one that does.

What makes it superior in my view is that TM are taking the guess work out for you, it is also cheaper and you do not have to do any multi dosing of various elements to try and meet what is provided to you in a simple powder form from TM. Yes there are many brands that offer extra elements to your tank, but as pointed out on the webinar, typically they will offer around 30 of the essential elements, or around that number. So again back to the benefit of TM, it is an off the shelf easy to use all in one product.

I am not going to get into the argument of the risks of cheap salt, but throwing drive way mix into your system I am sorry that is one step over the edge, but I covered the whys and where for's in regards to using a known pure source, as I said then you spend thousands of dollars on corals etc on your tank I am at a loss why someone would risk that no matter how small they feel the risk is on salts you cant prove as pure. The salt mix is the life blood of the tank, surely a little extra spent to use a known qualified mix worth the expense?

I regards to just using a balanced sea salt mix, this was covered in the very first opening synopsis. If you do no 3 part or 2 part dosing at all, in between water changes you will get troughs in the amount of elements remaining in the system, so you will no doubt argue that you will then do for example (lets go large) a 25% water change weekly?

When you remove 25% of the water you are replacing it with only 25% of the depleted elements.

Worse from this IS doing a non balanced 2 or 3 part system and relying on a water change, again you are only removing the % of water change and that % of imbalance, its simple maths, there is no argument to that one.

With a proper balanced balling system you are keeping the elements and stability where it should be in between those water changes, eliminating any depletion.

[Aqua-Digital]

I can't believe we've managed to keep our tanks alive for so long without this stuff. I'm pretty confident using the cheap salt as you call it.

Thats great as I said before if thats the way you want to go then go for it, but at least add the balancing factor of part C, then you do not have two risks, just one.

But i still do not see the reason of using off the self salts and there are risks involved in them, I have seen many tanks with sudden algal blooms after a year or less, once the person stopped using the salt the issue slowly went away. As a hobbyist you have absolute no control what these salts have in them, you are buying salts not designed for your tank, food grade is great for food, but corals are a little more sensitive, I am not talking about poisons just wrong elements, too much bromide is one possible scenario.

So in "my" view I would rather spend that little extra and get salts from a known pure source where they have been tested and assured for you for the intended use. I also prefer to feed my expensive corals something that I cna trust in as replacing that coral will far outweigh the cost of using a proper salt mix.

But this is where the arguments start so i will end by saying, if you are happy using your DIY salts, go for it, just please at least see the importance of adding Part C.

[Aqua-Digital]

Well instead of using randy's receipe, if someone just create the mixes according to the doc you posted, they should be getting something closer to what TM's balling is; maybe not 100% accurate but hey, some sacrifices have to be made ;) I wouldn't mind trying part C since it kind of makes sense now :) I would consider it more as "adding traces with one powder" instead of all the ionic balances. Fancy words make things look crazy :lol:

Yep you are right it is adding all the traces in one powder, but its that one powder with all the traces that enables the ionic balance, it is important to be clear on that point.

I am not so sure about using another salt and copying the recipe, there is a chance you will get a different strength mix as not all salts are made up of equal components, so make sure you at the very least have the correct saturation points as marked, which for the average bobbyist could be difficult to achieve. Which brings me back to the point of why bother when the kit is readily available for you in the first place.

Is there that much need to try and find a way round a product just because it is a commercially supplied product for you, for your ease of use? After you have gone to all these efforts, in effect to beat what many feel as beating the system, or doing it cheaper hoping to get the same results, I am quite sure the saving based on time and effort would be minimal, and in some cases more expensive.

But that's consumer choice, do what you feel fits best with you. Just - yep - PART C at the very least.

[Aqua-Digital]

Hows the dosing done Michael? Because to have one sodium ion for every chloride ion, there has to be a ratio of 110.98g of CaCl for every 84.007g of CaHCO (molar masses). Does that satisfy the aprox 10ppm of calcium consumption every 2dkh of alk drop? Because if that amount of grams are not maintained, there will either more be more sodium ions or more chloride ions with an end result of being imbalance.

And here is your answer in probably more detail than you could ever wish for ;) Hans-Werner does not hold back ;)

• Sodium chloride has a molar weight of 58.44 g/mol.
• In 2 l of R/O water a max. of 2 mol sodium bicarbonate can be dissolved. After addition of 2 mol sodium bicarbonate and 1 mol calcium chloride 2 mol sodium chloride remain in the aquarium. 2 mol sodium chloride can be balanced with exactly 50 g of sodium chloride free sea salt.
• Formula:
 CaCl2 x 2 H2O + 2 NaHCO3 
CaCO3 + 2 NaCl + CO2 + 3 H2O
• Insert weights:
 147 g CaCl2 x 2 H2O + 168 g NaHCO3  100 g CaCO3 + 117 g NaCl + 44 g CO2 + 54 g H2O
 117 g NaCl + 50 g NaCl free sea salt  167 g complete sea salt

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/monitors-direct/Picture1_zps3517c0e1.jpg

• Adjust tank water to 7° KH and 420 ppm calcium.
• Check alkalinity after two days. Calculate how much alkalinity solution is needed. Add same volume of all three solutions.
• Continue with daily additions of half the volume.
• Adjust added volumes to keep 7° KH alkalinity.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/monitors-direct/Picture2_zps87c91cd8.jpg

[MitchM]

...

So in "my" view I would rather spend that little extra and get salts from a known pure source where they have been tested and assured for you for the intended use. I also prefer to feed my expensive corals something that I can trust in as replacing that coral will far outweigh the cost of using a proper salt mix....

+1

That's what does it for me. Situations like the bromide issue in Dow Flake from a number of years ago is what concerns me.

You may be able to find less expensive sources of additives, but you have to be a lot more diligent as to keeping up on their composition....IF that information is even available to the public in a timely manner.

[reeferfulton]

Just mixed the part A , And part B solutions .

Had one issue .
With the part B.
I added 18 scoops to my jug added the water and began shaking. Well no matter what it would not all disolve. So I have that solution now that i dont know what to do with.

So take 2.
This time I weighed each scoop. It only took 15 scoops to reach the 318 grams. This would explain why the first solution would not totally disolve.


anyone else weigh each scoop ? would be nice to know .

really wish i had weighed the other parts first before i hooked up to my doser

[Aqua-Digital]

On the box it tells you either scoop or total weight, it makes a lot more sense to use the total weight than a scoop.

As per the instructions
Part A = 380 grams to 5L of RO
Part B = 420g to 5L of RO
Part C = 120g to 5L of RO

scoops are just a guide for those that dont have scales handy, it will never be as accurate as measured weight.

[ddarkz]

Glad I read this post before I go ahead and purchase a Calcium reactor, I have a 900G setup, what should I be expecting for a start up?

[Aqua-Digital]

Hi

do you mean price or level of ease in setting up?

[ddarkz]

level of ease :)

[Aqua-Digital]

very easy, for starters you have full control over every element going into your system where as a calcium reactor you have not a lot of control and will require a kalk stirrer also. Plus the co2 bottles.

With the balling system you need 3 x fluid chambers and the GHL doser and thats it.

start by manually adjusting your parameters over 3 days then set your daily dosing to maintain this, check for the first week every other day then after that weekly.

[ddarkz]

Thanks A-D, you sum it up pretty simple, I do agree with the calcium reator is alot more complex as I dont have much time doing that, this should provide me a better option, I will get in touch with my LFS on this setup.

[Aqua-Digital]

No problem just ask them to contact me on Thursday ;)

Any other questions, feel free to hit me with them ;)

[BlueTang<3]

Is there a formula to figure out how much to start off to maintains levels or is it kinda hit and miss as every tanks usage will be different.

[Aqua-Digital]

every tank is different but the kit comes with a guide to start you off.

Happy New Year! :mrgreen:

[BlueTang<3]

The only other problem I see is you stated I need a ghl doser... Don't have one of those :wink::wink:

Thanks again for all the help i am sure this isn't the last ill hear from me on this :mrgreen:

[ddarkz]

I believe Harvey at Marine Aquaria has a used DHL in good condition for sale.

[BlueTang<3]

I picked up the vertex libra from Harvey

[Aqua-Digital]

True story, 3rd coast corals in the usa had all their buyers after 6 months switching over to GHL dosers due to reliability issues.

Hope yours is ok though.

[ddarkz]

switching from Vertex to GHL?

[Aqua-Digital]

Yep exactly that. I can send the email to you if you wish, and you can contact 3rd coast directly what the issue was.

[ddarkz]

crap, I know I should have trust the Germans! but I must admit the Vertex looks fancy. :)

[Aqua-Digital]

Dont shoot the horse unless its limping, I am sure you will be fine.

I saw them at interzoo, huge boxes and pricey in my opinion, but consumer choice wins as with everything. The GHL is tried tested and ultra reliable, we cant keep them in stock for that reason and at $399 its a no brainer when a cheapy chinese is only about $90 less.

2 year warranty with the GHL also and all spares available and self service.

[ddarkz]

I was looking into getting a Vertex lol, the design look really had me going though. :)

[Aqua-Digital]

GHL Reviews

Mr Saltwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqvH18511uc

owner review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKW2IYYmZos

[ddarkz]

I had two of GHL, must admit they never gave me any issues!

[BlueTang<3]

I am gonna agree I shoulda bought a ghl but I am a succer for fancy things anyhow ill stop derailing the thread.

Should pick up salts next week and then well know how it all works, geting excited to not have to deal with my ca reactor and its leaks

[Ron99]

The Vertex dosers have been fine since their firmware update a while back. And they have a two year warranty as well :) Also, they are the easiest doser to program I have ever used.

[Aqua-Digital]

The Vertex dosers have been fine since their firmware update a while back. And they have a two year warranty as well :) Also, they are the easiest doser to program I have ever used.

:mrgreen: So you argue about spending on decent salts but buy an expensive doser to dose those cheap salts to run your tank? :mrgreen:

[Ron99]

:mrgreen: So you argue about spending on decent salts but buy an expensive doser to dose those cheap salts to run your tank? :mrgreen:

I argue about whether a "brand" name salt is better or necessary vs. food grade etc. Using "lab grade" salts is, in my opinion, a marketing exercise as most super high purity lab grade chemicals are intended for very precise uses such as analytical chemistry work where a 0.05% deviation in purity can throw your results off. We don't need that level of precision or purity for our uses. If I would be comfortable putting it on or in my own body, I'm comfortable putting it in my tank. I'm not saying the TM salts are bad, just that for some people, other more affordable options also exist and can work just as well. Saving money on salts or other items where I can let's me apply that to the equipment budget for a quality doser or skimmer etc.

[Aqua-Digital]

The saving once you have gone to all that effort will be very little if any and the salt is the lifeblood to your corals, for me not a risk to take.

Yes of course branded salts are a marketing product, just as the salts you buy are also. The name does not put the price up, whats in it and whats gone into it to make it balanced for you does. ;)

[Ron99]

Well, I don't have time to run a spreadsheet and financial analysis right now but from what I've seen of many (not all, but many) additives and supplements, the costs add up to a great deal over time and the savings can likewise add up over time.

As for the whole issue of balanced dosing, I'm not disputing the principal but I will also suggest that I don't think it's even possible to completely "balance" your dosing as each system will be different depending on size, livestock, livestock types and various rates of consumption of a wide range of different elements by different types of corals or algae or clams etc.

Just my thoughts on it all. Plenty of people over the years seem to get by perfectly well and have stunning reef tanks with nothing more than regular water changes and perhaps regular two or three part dosing or running a calcium reactor etc.

[Aqua-Digital]

All comes down to if you want to do it right as nature intends or try and bend the rules to suit a budget. If you want to do it "naturally" right then this system offers that for you.

The battle of a reefer is chemistry if we can help simplify this and take away the risk factors then I believe the product is worth it.

[Ron99]

All comes down to if you want to do it right as nature intends or try and bend the rules to suit a budget. If you want to do it "naturally" right then this system offers that for you.

The battle of a reefer is chemistry if we can help simplify this and take away the risk factors then I believe the product is worth it.

I guess this is where I have a bit of a problem when you make the implication that this is the "right" way and other ways are not "right". As I've been trying to say, there are many ways to dose and maintain tank chemistry and claiming that one is right and the others aren't is a bit bold IMO. Plenty of people have stunning tanks using other methods or products as well. The TM ones may be good but so can others too. That's my point.

And I think that tanks may vary in their requirements for different trace elements depending on their livestock. For example, someone growing some ornamental macro algae or a fuge full of macro algae may need to dose more iron or iodine than someone not. And even that is questionable. Here's a great write up by Randy Holmes-Farley on trace element dosing:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/

[Aqua-Digital]

Even the 3 part system that is talked about on reefkeeping now advocates the use of NACL free salt, interesting the recent change. However the NACL free you can get will not have all the trace elements found in your sea salt mix.

This is not about adding extra elements as pointed out above its about making a balance and to do that you have to replicate everything that is in your sea salt mix minus the sodium chloride.

why minus the sodium chloride?...... because you bi product of your 2 part dosing is sodium chloride. its already there free swimming looking for the NACL to bind to, the added benefit of the Tropic marin system is that the NACL also comes with the same amount of trace elements in your salt mix and in doing so constantly re vitalizes your tank with them.

The whole point of the system is about balance, not about trace elements that are added as an '"addition" to your system.

Your are re balancing the basics, not the complexes.

[Ron99]

Even the 3 part system that is talked about on reefkeeping now advocates the use of NACL free salt, interesting the recent change. However the NACL free you can get will not have all the trace elements found in your sea salt mix.

This is not about adding extra elements as pointed out above its about making a balance and to do that you have to replicate everything that is in your sea salt mix minus the sodium chloride.

why minus the sodium chloride?...... because you bi product of your 2 part dosing is sodium chloride. its already there free swimming looking for the NACL to bind to, the added benefit of the Tropic marin system is that the NACL also comes with the same amount of trace elements in your salt mix and in doing so constantly re vitalizes your tank with them.

The whole point of the system is about balance, not about trace elements that are added as an '"addition" to your system.

Your are re balancing the basics, not the complexes.

I think I made it clear that I understand the proposition of the "balanced" dosing that Dr. Balling proposes. That's not the question. I simply wonder if there's really a need to do so beyond simple water changes and possibly dosing for CA, Alk and Mg if need be. Ca and Alk are the two big ones that can potentially cause problems. The rest not so much unless something is way out of whack.

Has Dr. Balling done any analysis in reef tanks to measure the consumption rates of all the other minor and trace elements to determine what dosing is required of them? Can he/you provide that data or a link to it?

[Aqua-Digital]

The need as said in many thread previous is because a water change ONLY changes the % of imbalance in the water change, so for example as i said before if you do a 10% water change you are only addressing 10% of the imbalance same as you only remove 10% bad nutrients.

the only way to achieve the same with a water change is by 100% change

[Ron99]

You are assuming that the trace and minor elements are being consumed at a rate higher than 10% (very simplified number for what is a complicated system). That's why I would like to see some data on the consumption rates of all these various elements that apparently need to be dosed to replenish them beyond what a water change might accomplish. Randy Holmes-Farley seems to indicate that many are used up very slowly and that our salt mixes contain more than natural sea water in any case. I just don't have time to check all his references right now. I imagine Dr. Balling would have some data on the consumption rates of these various elements in a "typical" reef system and some data on how regular water changes don't replenish them sufficiently thus supporting the use of his supplements. Perhaps you could ask for that or some references?

The chemistry beyond the use of the major elements such as Ca and carbonate is complex and I suspect varies greatly from system to system depending on types of corals and inverts etc. I'm not convinced that this one size fits all solution is best for everyone, let alone even necessary given the low rate of use of uptake of the trace elements and the ability to replenish via water changes.

[Aqua-Digital]

Give tropic marin a call ask to speak to Lou he is expecting your call, he will explain everything to you person to person directly.

You should have joined the seminar.

[reeferfulton]

I am currently using this , on week 2 now.
will number the questions i would like addressed
thanks

(1.)I am told that part C is dosed at the same rate as part B. correct ?

if so

The box shows that part C contains 3350mg/l MG , 980mg/l K it does not list any other trace elements.
(2.)This is supposed to be everything from a TM salt bucket less the salt , ca , alk
correct ?

Either way . i am currently dosing 84ml a day of part B . Now if to be balanced i need to be adding 84ml of C then i think i have an issue .
My mag consumption has been very low for the last 5 months . so I have chosen to dose on 20 ml a day of part C. And after 2 weeks my Mg is still 1500.

(3.)SO , I am not Balanced ??
I do 10 percent changes each week . ANd the bucket of IO i am currently using seems to have Mg in the upper 1450's ( tested with red sea, and salifert)

(4.)So how can I add an equal dose of part C to be BALANCED if my Mg is already high?

(5.)Then there is the Question of the 980 mg/l of K in part C . This is pottasium right ?
(6.)I have never tested for potassium . Should i be concerned of an overdose?

thanks for the help
maybe these levels will be driven high too . ?

[Aqua-Digital]

1) Yes providing you start with a balanced system i.e all parameters in line with their guidelines which is written on the box. You may find you need to slightly vary away from this depending on your own tanks needs. Its a guideline

2) yes correct all 3 parts A B and C make up NSW minus the sodium Chloride.

3) refer to point #1 you need to balance your system first

4) This also comes down to point #1

You balance your system first by manual dosing once balanced you can work out your daily consumption.

[reeferfulton]

that really doesnt make much sense .

If my system demands

70ml CA
84 ml alk
(Which is the same as before TM balling method when you take into account the concentration adjustment.)

but only 10 ml a day of MG (aka part C)

And this is how it sits for say a few months ..

Then as per the seminar , i am not balanced . The whole point wast to add equal parts C to B , thus balancing the chloride ions etc

Infact RON99 has a very good point . If the consumption in my tank of all trace elements ( all 70 trace in part C) is not equal to the amount of part C dosed then potentially over time those elements will become over concentrated .

[Proteus]

1) Yes providing you start with a balanced system i.e all parameters in line with their guidelines which is written on the box. You may find you need to slightly vary away from this depending on your own tanks needs. Its a guideline

2) yes correct all 3 parts A B and C make up NSW minus the sodium Chloride.

3) refer to point #1 you need to balance your system first

4) This also comes down to point #1

You balance your system first by manual dosing once balanced you can work out your daily consumption.

If the salt we choose to use is not "balanced" then how do we balance the system while continuing weekly or biweekly water changes

[Aqua-Digital]

as long as your ca ALK and Mg is within range the rest will fall into place.

if still stuck or unsure give Lou a call he has said he will answer any call

413-367-0101

You are not balancing trace elements thats where I think the confusion lies

[Ron99]

Give tropic marin a call ask to speak to Lou he is expecting your call, he will explain everything to you person to person directly.

You should have joined the seminar.

I'll see if I have time to do that. Can you PM me a phone number? Thanks :smile:

edit: never mind, missed the post above...

[reeferfulton]

ok may call .

one last thing then.

lets just say that i need to dose no Mg . or 1 ml a day lol

basically i have no need for part C ?

so am i not basically just doing 2-part dosing again ?

[mrhasan]

ok may call .

one last thing then.

lets just say that i need to dose no Mg . or 1 ml a day lol

basically i have no need for part C ?

so am i not basically just doing 2-part dosing again ?

Yap its gonna be just an expensive 2-part. :razz:

[Aqua-Digital]

Yap its gonna be just an expensive 2-part. :razz:

Ok lets not let this thread fall apart with pointless negatives, I kept this open knowing eventually the thread would implode with people trying to disprove what has been already proven.

Part C Mg is designed in a way that you will never not dose it, I am dosing 80ml a day! and my Mg is 1320. It is designed to be proportional. So NO you will not end up with an expensive 2 part as Part C is designed always be required in proportion

You need to also remember the trace elements are in very small quantities. With the Ca and Alk consumption in the tank, these trace elements are depleted through precipitation and biological processes.

Here again is Lous number he is open to calls all the time in office hours eastern time, please call him and use this service.

413-367-0101

[mrhasan]

Ok lets not let this thread fall apart with pointless negatives, I kept this open knowing eventually the thread would implode with people trying to disprove what has been already proven.

Part C Mg is designed in a way that you will never not dose it, I am dosing 80ml a day! and my Mg is 1320. It is designed to be proportional. So NO you will not end up with an expensive 2 part as Part C is designed always be required in proportion

You need to also remember the trace elements are in very small quantities. With the Ca and Alk consumption in the tank, these trace elements are depleted through precipitation and biological processes.

Here again is Lous number he is open to calls all the time in office hours eastern time, please call him and use this service.

413-367-0101

He was asking whether it would just be a 2 part if he doesn't have to dose part C. We have had this discussion before Michael ;)

[Aqua-Digital]

Yes it would but then thats an unbalanced system, as said so many times in this thread part C is the most important part. So part C in the system is designed so it will be required so the system stays in balance.

[mrhasan]

Yes it would but then thats an unbalanced system, as said so many times in this thread part C is the most important part. So part C in the system is designed so it will be required so the system stays in balance.

Exactly :biggrin:

[Aqua-Digital]

As I have said so many times before if you do nothing else and dont use part A and Part B of TM system, it is extremely important to use part C so the free sodium chloride left behind from the coral consumption of the calcium and carbonate has something to balance to.

without part C the left over sodium and chloride will unbalance your system, the trace elements also in the system are an added benefit.

[Ron99]

As I have said so many times before if you do nothing else and dont use part A and Part B of TM system, it is extremely important to use part C so the free sodium chloride left behind from the coral consumption of the calcium and carbonate has something to balance to.

without part C the left over sodium and chloride will unbalance your system, the trace elements also in the system are an added benefit.

That's assuming you don't "balance" by mixing your water for a change at a slightly lower salinity to compensate for the small amount of added Na and Cl from dosing.

[Aqua-Digital]

Perfect if you do water changes daily then!

All this work Ron just to try and disprove the need for the system? sounds like a hell of a lot of hard work to me. Why not just try it instead of trying to find constant flaws in it. You may just be surprised ;)

[Aqua-Digital]

If anyone else is really interested in further information before buying please call Lou on

413-367-0101

or email office@tropicmarin-usa.com

[Ron99]

Uhhh, huh. Deleted a bunch of my points I see. I'll try to call TM and I'm sure I will confirm my thoughts. Too bad you can't seem to handle the discussion and questions about the product you sell.

[jorjef]

Aaaaaaaaaaaand there goes the door. Lol

Turning of key

Aaaaaaand.....

[Aqua-Digital]

Uhhh, huh. Deleted a bunch of my points I see. I'll try to call TM and I'm sure I will confirm my thoughts. Too bad you can't seem to handle the discussion and questions about the product you sell.

Ron your only point on posting on here is because you are anti commercial products you have made that very clear in earlier threads. if you want to do something similar DIY then feel free here is how

get some baking soda
get some tank kill ice melt
get some epsom salts
hope to work out how the hell to balance that and then throw in as many trace elements you feel you dont need.

As I said from the start this system is not patented nor is it rocket science its basic chemistry if you feel you can do better and cheaper (which is your whole point of posting on this thread) Go for it.

But Ron I urge you please let it go you have said your piece we get it you are anti commercial products, so Please do not post here again this thread is not for you!

I want to keep this open for people that are interested in doing balling properly this thread is NOT for you to try and find a DIY recipe to show you are the big guy that can copy it and be successful, if you do then please start your own thread and show the group your amazing results.

This is a sponsors forum for showing and highlighting the products we carry not for someone to continue to prove it can also be done DIY! that we leave for Randy Holmes and Co.

But as above please stop posting here, its not fair on those that have genuine interest. I think I have been very good and polite up to this point of quickly answering all your round and round in circle questions, but i now must apologize and bid you farewell from this thread.

[Aqua-Digital]

Aaaaaaaaaaaand there goes the door. Lol

Turning of key

Aaaaaaand.....

Nope not fair on those that have real interest in the Tropic marin system. It will stay open ;)

[Aqua-Digital]

Here is a great online purchase option

http://dereksreefshop.ca/categories.php?category=289

[Proteus]

I asked.a.Q earlier and am.still wondering

If my nsw for water changes is not balanced(as we know that salt values vary) then how am I able to keep my tank balanced. I do weekly wc and could see how it may upset the balance. If one was not concerned about nutrients export than you could for go wc as balling would keep level where they should be.

[jorjef]

Here is a great online purchase option

http://dereksreefshop.ca/categories.php?category=289


Hum. I don't see them as a sponser for the site.....

[Aqua-Digital]

I asked.a.Q earlier and am.still wondering

If my nsw for water changes is not balanced(as we know that salt values vary) then how am I able to keep my tank balanced. I do weekly wc and could see how it may upset the balance. If one was not concerned about nutrients export than you could for go wc as balling would keep level where they should be.

Most salt mixes are balanced, yes if starting off after doing an unbalanced 2-3 part system you are slightly on a back foot and its hard to give an exact answer to this as every system is different.

What the Hans Werner system will do is in time address that imbalance in conjunction with regular water changes.

remember the imbalance does not come from the lack of minor trace elements you get from 2 or 3 part systems, the elements are a secondary benefit of the TM system, the important part is the NACL part.

Talk to lou give him a call he will give you a more scientific answer to this.

[Aqua-Digital]

Hum. I don't see them as a sponser for the site.....

Correct but they are a dedicated member of the aqua digital supply chain and have been highlighted within our paid sponsored area as well as many others are also both sponsor and not.

[BlueTang<3]

We're balling

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh619/dukeandotis/8ef7a34507f0555ed26ffe8f9b71c1a1_zps7b88d741.jpg

[Aqua-Digital]

We're balling

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh619/dukeandotis/8ef7a34507f0555ed26ffe8f9b71c1a1_zps7b88d741.jpg

Where's the like button :mrgreen:

[H2o2]

Right here Button

[mrhasan]

Might be a good read. Published in 2008 by Dr. Balling :)

http://190.11.224.74:8080/jspui/bitstream/123456789/1880/1/chapter%2015.pdf

[Aqua-Digital]

brilliant thanks for that.

[mrhasan]

brilliant thanks for that.

You are welcome :D

[mrhasan]

Um balling too ;)

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s522/mrhasan1/2014-01-11143634_zpsb83b9780.jpg (http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/mrhasan1/media/2014-01-11143634_zpsb83b9780.jpg.html)

[Aqua-Digital]

Yeah! :mrgreen: there has been a huge uptake in this which is great, looking forward to helping everyone if they need it.

[BlueTang<3]

So after running this for a few days,my levels are slowly dropping started slow and bumping it up every day to ensure my levels don't spike. My question is now for a reef calculator what option does a person choose that has similar characteristics as these salts.

[mrhasan]

So after running this for a few days,my levels are slowly dropping started slow and bumping it up every day to ensure my levels don't spike. My question is now for a reef calculator what option does a person choose that has similar characteristics as these salts.

I don't think there's any. You would have to play with it to find the right amount. It would be easy since you will most likely be dosing the same volume of all three solutions (that's why there's very specific instructions of the amounts of each powder to be mixed to 1gallon water: generally, about 2dkh of alk drop will drop the Ca by 1.5ppm in every tank and the solutions are concentrated in such a way that equal amount of each three parts will follow that ratio).

[Aqua-Digital]

TM explained to me the importance is getting your levels balanced i.e where alk ca and Mg should be, balance alk and ca first. If your alk is too high it will buffer both your ca and mg.

once balanced then within a tolerance everything else will be equal to a degree.

ranges

alk -7 to 8
Ca - 400 - 430
MG - 1280 - 1350

[warriorcookie]

I'm considering switching to this from the BRS recipe. I also plan to start using the Pro-Reef salts (Was using H2Ocean)

What I'm looking for is a conversion. I know how much I need to dose daily based on the concentrations prescribed by BRS. I imagine the Tropic Marin system is more/less concentrated. My system is already balanced and stable, it would be helpful to know so I could dial it in faster with less headache.

Also, are the Pro Coral A Elements and Pro Coral K Elements still recommended? What do these bring to the table that the system doesn't already?


Loving the products you bring to Canada. Super pumped Bayside brought this in. Keep it up!

[Aqua-Digital]

Thanks for the positive thoughts on what we are bringing in ;)

the A and K are the trace elements that are not found in salt mixes or can not be added due to precipitation. They add the final element to the system.

In regards to conversion calculation to be honest there is not one as TM or us have no clue of what type or quality the salts they use are although based on the price I am going to guess at not above food grade.

If you have balance right now and that should be as follows

Ca around 420-430
ALK - 7-8
Mg - 1280 - 1350 (closer to 1350 is better in my oppinion)

If you are within those ranges then initially dose to the same level you are now for 48 hours and then test, from there you will know if you are needing to adjust an element up or down.

If you are not within the ranges above then manually adjust over a week to those levels. Remember the connection between ca and alk the higher the alk the harder it is to raise ca without raising your MG.

[BlueTang<3]

Well after the two weeks seems tank has settled at 250 ml a day of all parts.

[Aqua-Digital]

Good result! Let us know how things roll along?

[jorjef]

Well after the two weeks seems tank has settled at 250 ml a day of all parts.

What does that equal in dollars and cents?

[Aqua-Digital]

over 10L of make up of A and B and about 41L of part C

kit costs $59.00 for A,B,C

Can be purchase separate.

Remember also Blue Tangs tank is total water volume 540 gallon!

[Reef Pilot]

over 10L of make up of A and B and about 41L of part C

kit costs $59.00 for A,B,C

Can be purchase separate.

Remember also Blue Tangs tank is total water volume 540 gallon!
Yeah, I've been following this, too, and would like a better idea of what my costs would be. If I went this route, what would be my total start up, and then ongoing costs per year for a 230g system? You can exclude hardware.

[BlueTang<3]

Yeah, I've been following this, too, and would like a better idea of what my costs would be. If I went this route, what would be my total start up, and then ongoing costs per year for a 230g system? You can exclude hardware.



I have a few clams large Sps colonies large Lps colonies and about 80 frags,

I figure me 5l container will last 10 days 2 fills will be 20 days so about 50 a month maybe for additives ?

I was going through a 20 pound bottle of co2 in just over a month before cost was 28 to fill plus the hassle of two trips to the place that did it. I kept my reactor in case this doesn't pan out but we will see.

[Reef Pilot]

I have a few clams large Sps colonies large Lps colonies and about 80 frags,

I figure me 5l container will last 10 days 2 fills will be 20 days so about 50 a month maybe for additives ?

I was going through a 20 pound bottle of co2 in just over a month before cost was 28 to fill plus the hassle of two trips to the place that did it. I kept my reactor in case this doesn't pan out but we will see.

Thanks. But wow, that is a lot of C02 in a month... But you do have a large system.

I dose alk and Ca, and just recently had to start doing Mg as well. My dosing costs keep rising as my SPS grows, but for now, still a lot less than your new TM method, even when extrapolated down to my size system. But I acknowledge there may be other benefits, too.

[BlueTang<3]

I totally agree there are cheaper other options/ routes to go I did more less for simplicity. If I am away working/ fishing any one can drag out the scale and add 400 g part add swirl and walk away. Don't have to worry about baking making soda or anything. I a, new to the dosing thing but may end up going to a simple recipe.

[Aqua-Digital]

Yeah, I've been following this, too, and would like a better idea of what my costs would be. If I went this route, what would be my total start up, and then ongoing costs per year for a 230g system? You can exclude hardware.

There is no definitive answer to this because the draw on the elements are based on your coral loading more than anything else in the average size tank with larger tanks such as blue tangs the huge water volume also comes into play but once at saturation or rather peak values the dosing amount will stabilize.

Blue tangs tank is a very unique in terms of size so it will be disproportionately higher than average.

No its probably not the cheapest system but its the best, and within reason thats what matters.

[BlueTang<3]

How's everyone else liking this, been a month and half tank levels are stable and stuff is growing. Happier then the calcium reactor.

[mrhasan]

I haven't seen any noticeable change other than Mg being stable (relative to 2 part). Colors and growth are consistent, can't say whether 3 part made it better or not since I changed my lighting too and things went to crazy growth mode.

[Aqua-Digital]

The main thing you will see if stability, coral colour change is subjective to many variants, but in time as your system become less out of balance you will see increased growth.

[Scythanith]

Hey Michael,

so just clarify for me if you would :) I tested the tank and have 415 Ca, 8.8 Alk, 1155 Mg. So my understanding is I should bring my Alk down to 7-8 and my MG up to 1300 before starting to dose the 3-Part system in unison. Now do I continue to manually dose the Part A to keep my Calcium up, and dose the Part C a little heavier (but no more than 125ml according to the box) to get my Mg up? That means I'd not dose Part B since I want my Alk to come down? I made a 2x concentration 1L solution of Part C that I am dosing with to get the Mg up.

Thank you for the clarification. I am all in to the ™ system now. Salt, 3-Part… GHL doser haahaa.

Anyone watch Breaking Bad :)

http://www.lithicimages.com/photos/i-JRVw5Xt/0/L/i-JRVw5Xt-L.jpg

[Aqua-Digital]

worry about one element at a time, bring the ALK down to below 8 and then test the Ca, your Ca will rise slightly due to the relationship of ALK to Ca, (too much alk = lower or suppressed Ca and visa versa.)

Once you have those two balanced then the MG will rise to a degree and then you can balance this.

[BlueTang<3]

Well a few months in, alk is 7 calcium is 390 but mag is at 1050

Dosing 250 ml of a and b and 500 ml of c and still the mag is dropping like mad. I'll have to check what the mag level is with my new salt. If its low can I bring it bring it up by dosing part c into the water or is there a better supplement to use.

Thanks

[BlueTang<3]

I might need a new mag test kit see It expired a few years back.

[Scythanith]

I currently have a 8.5 Alk, 405 Ca, and damned if I can't get my Mg above 1300. Even when my Alk was at 7.5, Ca at 420 the Mg was no higher than 1200ish.

I am dosing 170ml Part A, 150ml Part B, two doses of 150ml Part C.

[Aqua-Digital]

Your Mg is perfect for the other ratios why do you want to bring it up further? its exactly where it should be 1280 to 1350 is the magic area.

[BlueTang<3]

Can I use the part c to bring up te levels in new salt. My mag is 1050 right now alk 7 ca 390. Any tips ? Thanks

[Aqua-Digital]

you can but its an expensive way of doing it, I would suggest using TM bio mag which is specifically designed for such things, once at the correct level you can then change over to part C

[Proteus]

I've also had to bring up mag manually.

I'm still using reefers best which mag needs to be brought up

[BlueTang<3]

Yeah might be a reefers best thing but I figured a Half liter a day would maintain it. I may have to change salts sooner than later and pick up bio mag

[Scythanith]

I used 4l of Tailored Aquatics Mg to get mine to come up ~50ml. Michael, I was aiming for 1350 Mg based on what the ™ container said was optimum. If you say 1300 Mg is good well then awesome haahaa!

I am away for 2 weeks so I won't be fidgeting with the system for a while, which is good :) Stability promotes success!

[monza]

Thanks for this thread, interesting for sure. Final stages of setting up a new system, in the past I've been a die hard believer in CA reactors because I've had good success. I've been thinking balling system for a while and this may have convinced me to give it a shot. From my research it's a bit more on monthly costs but less hassle then CR. Less hassles equals more free time which is more valuable then a few dollars of savings in this hobby. Wai's in Calgary has also been super helpful in understanding all the benefits of the TM 3 part system.

I'll post some results down the road...

[Aqua-Digital]

We are seeing a massive uptake in the Tropic Marin balling system now, more and more are seeing the benefits of doing it properly.

If you are having issues with finding supply we have teamed up with several large retailers that always have it in stock. drop us a line for supply routes.

[Proteus]

I think I Love this product.

At first I was in debate about the science. And only because I did not understand it. I have had a hard time keeping mg up but I know this is because of the salt that I use. It took me the better part of a week to raise it and maintain it but the system set to be flawless. Now that I have the " balance" I'm looking forward to the growth and color I've seen in other pics

[Aqua-Digital]

Its these sort of posts that make my job worthwhile hearing our efforts paying off bringing both innovative and also the correct products to the end user so their tanks have the best possible chance of success.

Thank you for posting this. Its real end user comments like this that gets the word out.