You get what you pay for?! A marketing hype or a reality?

[mrhasan]

Since Kien saved the day from a poll :twised: I came up with this great idea of starting something else! I hear all over the net about "you get what you pay for" . Some people religiously follow it, some twist it by a bit while some just stand against it. My stand is somewhat mix for different perspectives: for some cases I believe the line while for others, I completely disagree. Here's some points that I can presented for both sides:

You get what you pay for:

1. Custom build tanks: it is a well known fact that commercially available tanks are much cheaper than custom build tank. But I believe paying somewhat more for custom build tanks are worth it since thats the "house" of all your livestocks for which you will be paying money for!

2. Salt: IO is awesome; no doubt in that but it lacks some of the things that expensive salt has. Easy to overcome that with additives BUT you would have to measure things that are needed to be mixed. I believe paying $20 more for a bucket is worth it. After all, it is the 2nd most important thing for saltwater. But I also believe there's a very sharp break even point for using expensive to cheap salts as the tank size gets bigger.

3. Test kits: Yes I am willing to pay a bit more for test kits. Obviously not crazy amount but I believe the prices of salifert/elos are justified. Even hanna to some extend.

Complete marketing hype:

1. LEDs: You seriously don't get what you pay for in this! I have heard more problem from ecotec than people using AI or even evergrow!!! Alongside, the R&D thing is pretty lame to me too. Lets talk about a company do do cradle to grave R&D for LEDs: Kessil! They design and manufacture all their products starting from the silicons to a complete fixture: that's R&D. Putting a microcontroller with codes that you get to play around in your computer with a fancy user interface is R&D too but not to the extend that kessil do. But the price difference between a kessil and an radion pro is HUGE! Sure adding some fancy things that radion has is fun but that doesn't justify the "you get what you pay for" hype. You buy a toyota for $20k while a BMW for $50k; you get the self satisfaction but again, "you get what you pay for" doesn't apply.

2. Powerheads: Worst thing to me! Buying a vortec is like spending money on expensive ski gears while you never going to ski in real life but rather be a collector. Tunzi powerheads are AWESOME! So are hydros! You can even control them to produce random waves. In the end, what are you paying for? "I don't want power chords in my tank"....sure....get an wireless heater and motor then we will be talking ;) And about the hype, vortecs get busted way too much than the cheapest hydors out there! BOOOOOOO!!!!

Well there are more but don't feel like writing much (will proceed as this thread gets big :D).

Anyway, so what's your opinion? :)

[Magickiwi]

You buy a toyota for $20k while a BMW for $50k; you get the self satisfaction but again, "you get what you pay for" doesn't apply.

Anyway, so what's your opinion? :)

My opinion is you've never owned a BMW... :)

[mrhasan]

My opinion is you've never owned a BMW... :)

Well I did mention the "satisfaction". But for the reliability, you are getting nothing less with a toyota. Basically, you are paying for the satisfaction, brand value and the nice features. No one can say, hey you bought a toyota for $20k....man you get what you pay for...not true. That was my point with that example ;)

And I am an international student; I shouldn't be driving a BMW right now :P

In layman's term: my point would be "do you really need a BMW? if you can afford it; wonderful but if you can't, do you have to starve yourself? Cause of the "you get what you pay for" hype?. Similarly, I see people screaming about "you get what you pay for" when someone buying something more reasonable to them. Do you need a vortec to have a successful tank? Do you need a bubble king to have a successful tank? Do you really need red dragon pumps for closed loop? It would be nice to be able to "afford" them but they are not a necessity.

[lastlight]

My opinion is you've never owned a BMW... :)

and not too many toyotas! i wish my tacoma or sienna had been 20k lol.

kessil does do a lot of r&d but they're a special case in that their parent company (dicon) is pretty big and has a pretty varied portfolio (outside our little hobby).

tunze and vortech are both very pricey. i'd group them together in the same tier. both just have different pros and cons for the pile of money you shell out.

[mrhasan]

and not too many toyotas! i wish my tacoma or sienna had been 20k lol.

kessil does do a lot of r&d but they're a special case in that their parent company (dicon) is pretty big and has a pretty varied portfolio (outside our little hobby).

tunze and vortech are both very pricey. i'd group them together in the same tier. both just have different pros and cons for the pile of money you shell out.

I shouldn't have put the car example :redface:

Yah tunzi and vortech are both pricey but even compared to each other, tunzi is less expensive than the overrated vortech. And you don't have to change parts as often as vortech too :razz:

[mrhasan]

Another example of "you get what you pay for" hype. I have had better success of keeping sps under odyssea lights than many others with more expensive fixtures.

Lesson: paying for expensive stuffs is not a shortcut to having a nice tank.

[lastlight]

Another example of "you get what you pay for" hype. I have had better success of keeping sps under odyssea lights than many others with more expensive fixtures.

Lesson: paying for expensive stuffs is not a shortcut to having a nice tank.

Lesson: there's a bazillion other factors at play that you're probably getting right or a little more right than those other reefers (myself included @$%)

[mrhasan]

Lesson: there's a bazillion other factors at play that you're probably getting right or a little more right than those other reefers (myself included @$%)

Exactly. Hence, getting expensive stuffs won't give you the shortcut to success. Its your responsibility with the "minimum requirement". Powerhead: necessity; vortech: not a necessity. Light fixture: necessity; expensive light fixture: not a necessity. I have seen a lot of thread with "odyssea will never grow anything!!!!!! because you get what you pay for"...blah :razz:

Its a very common human behavior that we judge things with the "price tag". Heavier price tag = good stuff.....which is something I can't agree to at all. And for that particular reason, there are lots of brands which set higher price: the mental satisfaction.

[kien]

Part of the problem is that "worth" and "value" are very subjective terms which underscore the phrase, "You get what you pay for." We've already got plenty of examples of this with your car analogy.

In our household we do own a more expensive Audi which in my opinion is over priced for what you get. It has 4 wheels that gets you from point A to Point B. My much cheaper Murano does the same thing and is actually much more comfortable to drive and hauls more junk in the trunk.

And I for one don't think it's expensive to buy a bucket of H2Ocean while everyone who uses IO will think it's ridiculously expensive. Meanwhile, I went to Starbucks rather than Tim Hortons for a coffee today. Did I get what I paid for? Well, I paid $5 for a coffee and I got a $5 coffee, so I guess I got what I paid for :biggrin:

Bottom line, yes, you get what you pay for, and no, you don't get what you pay for.

[mrhasan]

Part of the problem is that "worth" and "value" are very subjective terms which underscore the phrase, "You get what you pay for." We've already got plenty of examples of this with your car analogy.

In our household we do own a more expensive Audi which in my opinion is over priced for what you get. It has 4 wheels that gets you from point A to Point B. My much cheaper Murano does the same thing and is actually much more comfortable to drive and hauls more junk in the trunk.

And I for one don't think it's expensive to buy a bucket of H2Ocean while everyone who uses IO will think it's ridiculously expensive. Meanwhile, I went to Starbucks rather than Tim Hortons for a coffee today. Did I get what I paid for? Well, I paid $5 for a coffee and I got a $5 coffee, so I guess I got what I paid for :biggrin:

Bottom line, yes, you get what you pay for, and no, you don't get what you pay for.

Holy grape from the tree! That line just escalated the whole thread :biggrin:

[kien]

..and nevermind the hundreds of thousands of people who will scratch their heads when you tell them how much ANYTHING relating to your tank costs. To you it's totally worth it to buy a $30 bucket of salt, $5 jar of fish food, $10 for a 1" frag. These things may seem inexpensive to you but there are more people who would deem those things EXPENSIVE at any cost. The point here being, even the term "expensive" is relative.

[mrhasan]

..and nevermind the hundreds of thousands of people who will scratch their heads when you tell them how much ANYTHING relating to your tank costs. To you it's totally worth it to buy a $30 bucket of salt, $5 jar of fish food, $10 for a 1" frag. These things may seem inexpensive to you but there are more people who would deem those things EXPENSIVE at any cost.

Totally agree. But when someone posts a comment about which fixture of light to buy or which powerhead to buy, there seems to be numerous post supporting to buy the things with heavier price tag instead of saying "buy whichever suits your need". You shouldn't judge anything based on the price but should ask "does it worth it to pay that much" and thus personal judgement comes. I have experienced it numerous time myself in this forum starting from buying lights to buying skimmer.

[Coralgurl]

From my limited experience and reading this and other forums, there is definitely a "hype" component, especially when it comes to new technologies. Wireless features, LED's, skimmer technologies etc. Think about when lighting changed so that corals could be kept in aquariums, lighting improved so that tougher corals could be kept. When these products first came out, I can imagine how expensive they were. Now there is more selection, pricing drops. I bought G1 Radions, within 6 months, the price dropped, within a year the G2's came out, dropping the value of mine even lower. This is not a cheap hobby period. I think the "get what you pay for" applies more so to used items rather than new. Trying to save money on used, not sure of condition, seller, history etc., means money you save up front could cost thousands if it fails (return pump off ex).

Each person's equipment set up is as unique as each person's tank inhabitants. I don't need to rush out and buy the latest and greatest, my tank suits me.

[Scythanith]

"Is it worth it?" is very much in the eye of the beholder. I bought literally the most expensive pump I could without ever seeing one in person let alone using it. Why you may ask? It wasn't a "look at my Ferrari" moment. It was a "I want the most efficient, controllable, and backed product on the market" decision. Same reason I bought my BK skimmer and LED lights from GHL…. reliability and track record. I have no problem paying for a companies R&D. Without companies that do the hard work, knock-off companies like Jebao would have nothing to copy.

I think you'd find if money wasn't a barrier (I don't mean that as a cut to whatever your financial situation is) you'd buy the name brands when possible.

And for what it's worth I have never had to replace parts on my vortech mp40's. They have been running for ~4-5 years. I clean the wet side once every 6 months maybe. Now my Profilux controls them and synchronizes feeding and maintenance modes with my light, skimmer, return pump, vortech mp40's. For me that compatibility between products is worth every penny.

Just my two cents.
Scott

[Aquattro]

I've been running Tunze 6100 pumps since they came out. One is from the original shipmant J&L received. I've replaced the impeller once. I put it in this tank 4 years ago, pointed it, and it goes.

I recently bought a much less expensive WP60. More flow, sure. But every couple of weeks is starts sucking air from the surface. That annoys me, I have to play with it. I also find that in most modes, I can hear it in the next room.

As Scott stated above, barring monetary barriers, I would choose a Tunze over a budget Jabeo any day. That being said, my expectations for the WP60 are much lower, and overall, I feel with both pumps, I got what I paid for.

[Madreefer]

I don't think your going to win this one bud.:biggrin:

[mrhasan]

From my limited experience and reading this and other forums, there is definitely a "hype" component, especially when it comes to new technologies. Wireless features, LED's, skimmer technologies etc. Think about when lighting changed so that corals could be kept in aquariums, lighting improved so that tougher corals could be kept. When these products first came out, I can imagine how expensive they were. Now there is more selection, pricing drops. I bought G1 Radions, within 6 months, the price dropped, within a year the G2's came out, dropping the value of mine even lower. This is not a cheap hobby period. I think the "get what you pay for" applies more so to used items rather than new. Trying to save money on used, not sure of condition, seller, history etc., means money you save up front could cost thousands if it fails (return pump off ex).

Each person's equipment set up is as unique as each person's tank inhabitants. I don't need to rush out and buy the latest and greatest, my tank suits me.

Nicely explained Sheena :)

"Is it worth it?" is very much in the eye of the beholder. I bought literally the most expensive pump I could without ever seeing one in person let alone using it. Why you may ask? It wasn't a "look at my Ferrari" moment. It was a "I want the most efficient, controllable, and backed product on the market" decision. Same reason I bought my BK skimmer and LED lights from GHL…. reliability and track record. I have no problem paying for a companies R&D. Without companies that do the hard work, knock-off companies like Jebao would have nothing to copy.

I think you'd find if money wasn't a barrier (I don't mean that as a cut to whatever your financial situation is) you'd buy the name brands when possible.

And for what it's worth I have never had to replace parts on my vortech mp40's. They have been running for ~4-5 years. I clean the wet side once every 6 months maybe. Now my Profilux controls them and synchronizes feeding and maintenance modes with my light, skimmer, return pump, vortech mp40's. For me that compatibility between products is worth every penny.

Just my two cents.
Scott

I totally agree with what you have said. It is a personal choice and should remain it that way. Someone asking "I bought an odyssea fixture, which lights should I put in" and people jump in saying "nothing is going to work cause you get what you pay for" is just obsolete. It should be what you have explained..."pay for what you want to". No one needs expensive stuffs in this hobby to succeed but the market and some people just put it that way.

About the China's coping comment, yes I do agree. Without some companies, China would have to come up with their own designs which would, in turn, increase the cost of the products but still won't be that expensive. And about the creativity/design concept, I can't say anything about that but all I can say is "people always find a way". I will keep this in mind for another thread for another day :D

Well I do use brand stuffs and with more affordability, I would definitely move to better stuffs but obviously will not spend money on things which are not "required". Like I would spend money on a better reflector for light but definitely not on something that has fancy things which I will never use. I would probably add more smaller powerhead instead of spending on vortec. I would buy an efficient skimmer that gets the job done instead of paying for brand names. Like you said, personal preferences and not relying on "you get what you pay for".

[darkreef]

I don't go by you get what you pay for . I go by you get what effort you put in.

The fancy stuff is just to make are lazy lives easyier .

No one wants to top off or do water changes .
But even that doesn't have to break the bank and loose the house

But maintenance equipment make me feel like money well spent
(Skimmers, ato , more snails! , extra pump for wc ect.)

But a extra 500$ for lights that may up my coral growth a few inches a year doesn't .

[mrhasan]

I've been running Tunze 6100 pumps since they came out. One is from the original shipmant J&L received. I've replaced the impeller once. I put it in this tank 4 years ago, pointed it, and it goes.

I recently bought a much less expensive WP60. More flow, sure. But every couple of weeks is starts sucking air from the surface. That annoys me, I have to play with it. I also find that in most modes, I can hear it in the next room.

As Scott stated above, barring monetary barriers, I would choose a Tunze over a budget Jabeo any day. That being said, my expectations for the WP60 are much lower, and overall, I feel with both pumps, I got what I paid for.

Tunzi is definitely better and possibly the best powehead out there. But there are tanks running wps and doing alright (can't say successful since its too early to judge). Tunzi suits your need and hence you went for that. But I am pretty sure there will be people out there saying "ahhhh you should have bought vortech since they are the most expensive and coolest powerhead out there"....what will you say to that?

I don't think your going to win this one bud.:biggrin:

There's no winning or loosing over here Bill :razz: Its just a small empty tank hungry for fuel :mrgreen: And since Brad told me you are going to kill me if I open a poll, I opened this thread :D

[Aquattro]

But a extra 500$ for lights that may up my coral growth a few inches a year doesn't .

But if you sold frags, you'd more than recover that $500 with those extra inches. :)

Also, often, when paying more, you get greater reliability and warranty. Not always, but often. I expect that my 8 year old Tunze will still be going long after my WP60 dies.

[mrhasan]

But if you sold frags, you'd more than recover that $500 with those extra inches. :)

Also, often, when paying more, you get greater reliability and warranty. Not always, but often. I expect that my 8 year old Tunze will still be going long after my WP60 dies.

Come on Brad do you really think a hobbyist can "recover" money by selling frags? :razz: Whatever comes out of the tank goes in with added interest :lol:

[Aquattro]

Come on Brad do you really think a hobbyist can "recover" money by selling frags? :razz: Whatever comes out of the tank goes in with added interest :lol:

Absolutely. I put very little into my tank these days. I've probably made $15 for every $5 I've added this year.

[darkreef]

Come on Brad do you really think a hobbyist can "recover" money by selling frags? :razz: Whatever comes out of the tank goes in with added interest :lol:

Couldn't have said that better .. I never could make money off the hobby .
It a addiction , and you can't make money off something your addicted to .

If I was a vendor then yes lights , dosers , all on nutrition for them corals.

As a hobby, I'd rather not walk away from my tank soaked

[mrhasan]

Absolutely. I put very little into my tank these days. I've probably made $15 for every $5 I've added this year.

We all look forward to that :D

[Madreefer]

Raied everything that your using as examples you've never owned.
Just like your several comments on LED lights. Sure you can have an opinion but it really means nothing without actual experience. Get what you pay for? How bout Dont Knock It Till You Try It
And I love polls, just the biweekly Whats The Best Salt polls get rather boring.

[gqlmao]

To me this is a hobby and it is for the majority of us. Certain hobbies aren't cheap... in hobbies there are die hards, enthausist and the more mild crowd. We plan a lot of our lives around our tanks and fork out a good chunk of our income in hopes to succeed in this hobby. The majority aren't trying to make a buck on this, in the end we know we will forfeit our money to succumb to the joys of watching and sharing the growth of our reefs. In the end, it is the difference in the amount money it takes to get to a state where we are happy. This will differ from person to person, our enjoyment from this hobby not only comes from the success of our tanks but our pride in the choice of equipment we choose to run.


I agree, its possible to have a stunning system with cheaper barebones equipment as long as the person knows what they are doing and keeping up religiously with maintanence. There are so many circumstances to a successful tank, but we all have our own theoretical way of getting there. I don't think its fair to knock on the expensive equipment and call them hype because we all have the option of not buying them due to lots of community reviews.

[mrhasan]

Raied everything that your using as examples you've never owned.
Just like your several comments on LED lights. Sure you can have an opinion but it really means nothing without actual experience. Get what you pay for? How bout Dont Knock It Till You Try It
And I love polls, just the biweekly Whats The Best Salt polls get rather boring.

Lemme ask you some questions:

1. Does a tank need bubble king to succeed or does skimmers like vertex/bubble magus works? I have seen tanks having success with vertex skimmer and also bubble magus skimmer.

2. Do you need expensive LEDs to have success? Do you need radion/mitra to grow/color up successfully? If I am not wrong, you use AI and are happy. Isn't that all it matters? You being happy with your tank and not listening to "you get what you pay for" and running after fixtures like radion/mitra?

3. Do you need vortech to have proper flow in the tank?

4. Do you need expensive lights with expensive reflector to get corals growing?

The points I put forth for LEDs are related to "cost" and that is an independent to owning one. Companies say you save money with LED, I prove you don't. I have never said anything related to growth/coloration which is what depends on true experience. I did talk about disco affect which is something non-debatable.

All I am saying is "you get what you pay for" is not true (to me) for having success in this hobby.

[Delphinus]

I think it depends. I expect that some brands will offer more value in some respects but not always.

I use IO because I have not found any value in paying for more expensive salt. I use bulk Ca/Alk/Mg additives, which I would have to buy anyhow to dose my tank with to compensate for losses thereof due to coral growth - so I have it onhand regardless - to match parameter for parameter those values you might expect in a more expensive salt. It's just that experience has taught me that I pay less for the additives I use to achieve that, than I would be paying extra for the more expensive salt. So I save money on salt and the tradeoff is I put a little extra effort in the form of testing a new bucket (which experience has also taught me that you should do regardless: just because a salt brand is more expensive does not mean that there aren't the occasional bad batches). In this case I find I defray my purchase price by investing a little bit of time.

Also in the case of LED's I did find that certain products may be overpriced. Knowing what I know now, I realize I could have built a DIY solution for far less than what I paid for the off-the-shelf solution I elected to go with. That said, I didn't really want to do a DIY solution at the time just because I had other projects to finish and I felt my time was worth more (I guess because I need more time to test my salt buckets :lol:)

But this:
I expect that my 8 year old Tunze will still be going long after my WP60 dies.

I am a long time Tunze fan myself but lately I am finding that I am not getting more longevity out of the units. I still have original $20 Maxijets from 12 years ago and they run fine, but I've replaced probably 4 out of 5 Tunzes on my big tank in the last two years because of premature failure. To be honest I was starting to think that if another one goes soon I might just go with Jebao's or whatever they're called, if I pay $80 and get 1-2 years out of it, that's a far better cost proposition than paying $200-260(*) and getting 1-3 years out of it.

(*My wavebox is now also having issues, I'm not sure if it's in the connector or the pump, but to replace THAT particular pump (6100) is $260 whereas to replace a 6105 motor core is closer to $200. One of my 6105's died altogether last month so I chose to replace that one first.)

I still like Tunzes in the meantime because .. I just like what they offer. :lol:

[jorjef]

This thread is bound to be an endless circle of you say potato I say potatoe. It already has that painful feel of endless repetition. Bottom line people that drive a ford will never drive a Mercedes and visa versa. The same goes for tank equipment. What a buzz kill am I.

[mrhasan]

This thread is bound to be an endless circle of you say potato I say potatoe. It already has that painful feel of endless repetition. Bottom line people that drive a ford will never drive a Mercedes and visa versa. What a buzz kill am I.

Definitely. But a person who drives mercedes should never insist another person that he/she must buy Mercedes cause a ford is not safe and won't last and won't drive and blah blah blah....every one would love to be able to afford a mercedes but if one can't...its not the end of the world. Its a luxury and not a necessity to buy mercedes. A ford would still work right?

[jorjef]

Definitely. But a person who drives mercedes should never insist another person that he/she must buy Mercedes cause a ford is not safe and won't last and won't drive and blah blah blah....every one would love to be able to afford a mercedes but if one can't...its not the end of the world. Its a luxury and not a necessity to buy mercedes. A ford would still work right?

You got that right brother. My AI sol's and WP 25 oh not to mention my HOB skimmer:redface: work just fine

[Madreefer]

Lemme ask you some questions:

1. Does a tank need bubble king to succeed or does skimmers like vertex/bubble magus works? I have seen tanks having success with vertex skimmer and also bubble magus skimmer.

2. Do you need expensive LEDs to have success? Do you need radion/mitra to grow/color up successfully? If I am not wrong, you use AI and are happy. Isn't that all it matters? You being happy with your tank and not listening to "you get what you pay for" and running after fixtures like radion/mitra?

3. Do you need vortech to have proper flow in the tank?

4. Do you need expensive lights with expensive reflector to get corals growing?

The points I put forth for LEDs are related to "cost" and that is an independent to owning one. Companies say you save money with LED, I prove you don't. I have never said anything related to growth/coloration which is what depends on true experience. I did talk about disco affect which is something non-debatable.

All I am saying is "you get what you pay for" is not true (to me) for having success in this hobby.

1. I'm on my 8th skimmer. So yes i've had a little experience with them.
Tank looking and doing so much better by far and reliabilty has been
awesome since skimmer number 7 and 8. Hmmmm...both BubbleKing

2. Are you suggesting that AI products are low end? I see way more defects
with Radions than anything else. I have not tried them so really I have no
right to comment on them cause i've never tried them just like you.

3. I have 5 Vortech pumps and will not be using them on my new build cause
they will not suit my needs.My comment on them is that they are noisy
and I have had reliability issues with them and have had 3 replaced on
warranty. But I do think they are the best powerhead out there with all
the bells and whistles they have. I have traded them off on Tunzes that I
yet to try. So no comment on them.

4. No you dont need expensive lights or reflectors to grow corals. Where you
came up with this I dunno. I ran CoralLife MH fixture for years.

You proved nothing on LEDs to me. I changed my MH bulbs every 8-10 months and my 4 T5s every 6-8 months. I'm not about to do the math but it's been over 2 years and i'm pretty sure once I wear these LED fixtures out i'll be ahead of the game. I dont have a disco ball effect at all. I've only seen it once on this site with Vegas and several times with DIY setups. As for heat issues in the summer, this has helped tremendously and having that piece of mind knowing my tank is'nt boiling is good for me.
I see it on this site and as well as others. Most of the time the people that like to bash the more expensive pieces of equipment have never really owned them. I don't get it. So back to "Dont Knock It Till You Try It"
Raied i'm not trying to be ignorant i'm just answering your questions for me. By no means are these fighting words.
As someone else already said "if it works for you than great"
No need to be a hater.

[mrhasan]

1. I'm on my 8th skimmer. So yes i've had a little experience with them.
Tank looking and doing so much better by far and reliabilty has been
awesome since skimmer number 7 and 8. Hmmmm...both BubbleKing

I would step away from it. 8th skimmer is a lot :razz:

2. Are you suggesting that AI products are low end? I see way more defects
with Radions than anything else. I have not tried them so really I have no
right to comment on them cause i've never tried them just like you.

Well in terms of "you get what you pay for", AI is definitely on the low end. Its perfectly priced (atleast to me). And yes, we all have heard about radions having more defect. There you go...you don't always get what you pay for. :)

3. I have 5 Vortech pumps and will not be using them on my new build cause
they will not suit my needs.My comment on them is that they are noisy
and I have had reliability issues with them and have had 3 replaced on
warranty. But I do think they are the best powerhead out there with all
the bells and whistles they have. I have traded them off on Tunzes that I
yet to try. So no comment on them.

You have made your choice that you dont want vortech in your new build. Now someone comes forth and say hey don't waste your money on something else...you get what you pay for.....how would you defend? I believe you will say it doesn't suit you...that's it...its not about "how much you are paying for something" but its about "what suits you". If wps suit someone, he/she should use it without getting bashed/having a debate that he/she should spend more.

4. No you dont need expensive lights or reflectors to grow corals. Where you
came up with this I dunno. I ran CoralLife MH fixture for years.

I go through a lot of googling and end up in various sites (r2r, rc, etc.) and there are lots of thread such topics. Like when I was planning to buy odyssea, I could see lots of people (in other forums obviously; by no mean any of my pointers are to this forum only; infact most are to other forums) saying those are crappy fixtures, will burn down houses and are good for FOWLR tanks and things like that.

You proved nothing on LEDs to me. I changed my MH bulbs every 8-10 months and my 4 T5s every 6-8 months. I'm not about to do the math but it's been over 2 years and i'm pretty sure once I wear these LED fixtures out i'll be ahead of the game. I dont have a disco ball effect at all. I've only seen it once on this site with Vegas and several times with DIY setups. As for heat issues in the summer, this has helped tremendously and having that piece of mind knowing my tank is'nt boiling is good for me.
I see it on this site and as well as others. Most of the time the people that like to bash the more expensive pieces of equipment have never really owned them. I don't get it. So back to "Dont Knock It Till You Try It"
Raied i'm not trying to be ignorant i'm just answering your questions for me. By no means are these fighting words.
As someone else already said "if it works for you than great"
No need to be a hater.

You will definitely be ahead in the game because you are using AI which is priced right. If you were using radion or mitras, you wouldn't be saying that :lol: Just like people people like to bash expensive stuffs; there are people out there who like to bash non-expensive stuffs thinking they are just pieces made out of crap.



:lol: No hating with you at least or any fighting words :mrgreen:

I wrote the replies in the quote :D

[Aquattro]

I've decided that anyone complaining about my moderating in the future is getting "you get what you pay for" as a reply -lol

[mrhasan]

I've decided that anyone complaining about my moderating in the future is getting "you get what you pay for" as a reply -lol

:lol: Finally something effective came out of this thread. :mrgreen:

[StirCrazy]

You get what you pay for:

1. Custom build tanks: it is a well known fact that commercially available tanks are much cheaper than custom build tank. But I believe paying somewhat more for custom build tanks are worth it since thats the "house" of all your livestocks for which you will be paying money for!

2. Salt: IO is awesome; no doubt in that but it lacks some of the things that expensive salt has. Easy to overcome that with additives BUT you would have to measure things that are needed to be mixed. I believe paying $20 more for a bucket is worth it. After all, it is the 2nd most important thing for saltwater. But I also believe there's a very sharp break even point for using expensive to cheap salts as the tank size gets bigger.

3. Test kits: Yes I am willing to pay a bit more for test kits. Obviously not crazy amount but I believe the prices of salifert/elos are justified. Even hanna to some extend.



custom tanks, your not getting what you pay for, you are merely getting a size or options not available in mass produced tanks for a huge markup.

IO salt is just fine, people add so many additives anyways why spend extra on sale for stuff your going to add anyways. but even for those that don't some of the best tanks I have ever seen were IO and a ca reactor...

test kits I agree with you, not because of the quality but rather because the more expensive ones seam to be easier to read

[intarsiabox]

You proved nothing on LEDs to me. I changed my MH bulbs every 8-10 months and my 4 T5s every 6-8 months. I'm not about to do the math but it's been over 2 years and i'm pretty sure once I wear these LED fixtures out i'll be ahead of the game. I dont have a disco ball effect at all. I've only seen it once on this site with Vegas and several times with DIY setups. As for heat issues in the summer, this has helped tremendously and having that piece of mind knowing my tank is'nt boiling is good for me.
I see it on this site and as well as others. Most of the time the people that like to bash the more expensive pieces of equipment have never really owned them. I don't get it. So back to "Dont Knock It Till You Try It"
Raied i'm not trying to be ignorant i'm just answering your questions for me. By no means are these fighting words.
As someone else already said "if it works for you than great"
No need to be a hater.

I have to agree about this. I have a G2 Radion sitting over my 29g tank, for me to buy a nice ATI T5 fixture with bulbs would be no cheaper (actually more expensive). The first 10 months after owning it I would have saved well over $150 in replacement bulbs and then saved some extra money on energy costs as well. No disco effect with this fixture even on white sand and rocks plus I can make it do what ever I want without it having to cost me $25 just to try a different color to see if I like it. To keep comparing apple to apples I can get a cheap LED fixture again for the same price as a cheap T5 fixture (so LED would still be cheaper within a year), unfortunately some of the cheap T5 fixtures also have a history of catching fire so I will never have them in my house even if the company says they have fixed the problems that went on for years. As a tradesman my tools and equipment are my livelihood and I can assure you that cheap tools are exactly that. I've wasted lots of money on cheap tools when I was starting out and all of them had to be replaced and in the case of precision machine work were just down right unusable. So yeah, in a lot of cases you really do get exactly what you pay for. To keep posting these same threads over and over again pretending to be looking for opinions but then disagree with everyone that posts that has a different opinion and also using it as a guise to run down things you don't and never have owned is getting very tiresome. Please move on.

[Reef Pilot]

Sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't. And sometimes people are hesitant to admit they did not get a good deal or made a mistake. But no shortage of opinions from people who have never even used a product, and just spew what seems to be popular. Myself, I would rather just hear from people with direct experience, and wish the others would just listen and try to learn something.

And then there are those that blame a product, instead of their own ineptness. What works great for one person might bomb for someone else.

What would be far more useful is people giving their experience along with some facts and explanation of how they were using a product (or method). And let everyone else make up their own minds about what they want to do. Plus we could better assess whether the person knows what they are doing or not.

Reminds me of stock trading. Worst thing people can do is run with the herd, or listen to popular opinion. Then when they lose all their money they blame the banks, brokers, corporations, markets, etc, and say the system is crooked. In reality, it was their own greed and laziness (lack of analysis and due diligence) that did them in and they got what they deserved.

[mrhasan]

I have to agree about this. I have a G2 Radion sitting over my 29g tank, for me to buy a nice ATI T5 fixture with bulbs would be no cheaper (actually more expensive). The first 10 months after owning it I would have saved well over $150 in replacement bulbs and then saved some extra money on energy costs as well. No disco effect with this fixture even on white sand and rocks plus I can make it do what ever I want without it having to cost me $25 just to try a different color to see if I like it. To keep comparing apple to apples I can get a cheap LED fixture again for the same price as a cheap T5 fixture (so LED would still be cheaper within a year), unfortunately some of the cheap T5 fixtures also have a history of catching fire so I will never have them in my house even if the company says they have fixed the problems that went on for years. As a tradesman my tools and equipment are my livelihood and I can assure you that cheap tools are exactly that. I've wasted lots of money on cheap tools when I was starting out and all of them had to be replaced and in the case of precision machine work were just down right unusable. So yeah, in a lot of cases you really do get exactly what you pay for. To keep posting these same threads over and over again pretending to be looking for opinions but then disagree with everyone that posts that has a different opinion and also using it as a guise to run down things you don't and never have owned is getting very tiresome. Please move on.

1st bold line: I really don't understand what you mean by "same threads over and over again". Mind explaining? :)

2nd bold line: Did I really disagree with everyone? Although english is not my first language but I think there's a well understood difference between "disagree" and "debate" and I am capable enough to understand the difference.

3rd line: This is a public forum and everyone has the right to start a discussion/debate. There's admins out here. You don't have to the police. You really didn't have to post something like "please move on"...there's nothing to move onto...its just an thread where discussions are going on....there are both sides in this thread (if you would go through through all the posts). If you don't like this thread, you didn't have to comment on it. :) Nothing personal...cheers!

[mrhasan]

Sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't. And sometimes people are hesitant to admit they did not get a good deal or made a mistake. But no shortage of opinions from people who have never even used a product, and just spew what seems to be popular. Myself, I would rather just hear from people with direct experience, and wish the others would just listen and try to learn something.

And then there are those that blame a product, instead of their own ineptness. What works great for one person might bomb for someone else.

What would be far more useful is people giving their experience along with some facts and explanation of how they were using a product (or method). And let everyone else make up their own minds about what they want to do. Plus we could better assess whether the person knows what they are doing or not.

Reminds me of stock trading. Worst thing people can do is run with the herd, or listen to popular opinion. Then when they lose all their money they blame the banks, brokers, corporations, markets, etc, and say the system is crooked. In reality, it was their own greed that did them in and they got what they deserved.

Nicely put and I totally agree :) Forums are all about sharing experiences. Suppose someone comes forth and ask "I am buying a bubble magus, will it work" and someone posts "that's a piece of crap, buy a bubble king"...how helpful is that?

Yah I am a victim of that myself....I have been through lots of bashing for buying less expensive stuffs. I have heard "if you cant afford a refractometer, this hobby is not for you"...really??!! There's certain things that scares off many people, and "you pay what you get for" is one of them. I believe I have no less of a success in my tank with moderate end products than tanks with high end product. Isn't this hobby about taking it slowly? Not everyone starts with big pocket and certain people don't need to scare them off. In the end, its about the husbandry and not on how expensive the equipment are. You shouldn't buy an ebay HOB skimmer but you certainly don't have to buy a deltec.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

You shouldn't buy an ebay HOB skimmer but you certainly don't have to buy a deltec.

I love my Deltec skimmer. So much so I bought another for my next tank build:wink: Used of course:biggrin:

Anthony

[mrhasan]

I love my Deltec skimmer. So much so I bought another for my next tank build:wink: Used of course:biggrin:

Anthony

:mrgreen: When is the thread for new tank build going up? :smile:

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

As soon as I get the last couple pieces of equipment for it (Jebao:wink:)

[mrhasan]

As soon as I get the last couple pieces of equipment for it (Jebao:wink:)

:lol:

[Jakegr]

It is a fact that there are some amazing tanks out there that use budget equipment. I think the bottom line is that good husbandry techniques and careful equipment selection are far more important than the amount of money you spend. In my opinion, you can get skimmers that skim equally well to a Bubble King or LED lights that provide equal light quality as a GHL Mitras, for a fraction of the price of those high end items.

At the same time, I think hobbyists that stick to budget equipment should recognize that, while it may be stupid to you to spend $200 extra to get rid of a power cord in your tank, or $500 for a dead silent skimmer, other hobbyists may think it is worth it. It is simply a difference of opinion and is definitely not worth expending energy arguing about.

A few specific comments I have regarding gear in this thread:

- Custom tanks actually aren't much more than standard tanks. It depends a lot on the "options" you select on the custom tank, but you can actually get a basic custom tank for nearly the same price as a standard tank.

- I have seen no difference in my tanks that have used IO, Reef Crystals, Kent, and Deltec salt. I currently use IO.

- I kind of found the Kessil comment odd (that they are good value). I think they are one of the most over priced lights on the market for what they do. This is coming from someone who owns one.

- Vortech's are fantastic quality compared to Hydor Koralias. If you take proper care of your Vortech, it will last for many years. Personally, I think you are lucky if you can get 2 years out of a Koralia, even with regular vinegar baths. It is also really nice to clean a Vortech you do not need to unplug it.

- I completely agree about the LEDs. Cheap LEDs can provide great quality of light, just as good as a high end LED fixture. My biggest problem with cheap LEDs is that they are just ugly. Good for those who have a close canopy, but not good looking over open top tanks.

[intarsiabox]

The points I put forth for LEDs are related to "cost" and that is an independent to owning one. Companies say you save money with LED, I prove you don't. I have never said anything related to growth/coloration which is what depends on true experience. I did talk about disco affect which is something non-debatable.


" Although english is not my first language but I think there's a well understood difference between "disagree" and "debate" and I am capable enough to understand the difference."

I guess I am just misinterpreting your comments then.

[intarsiabox]

- Custom tanks actually aren't much more than standard tanks. It depends a lot on the "options" you select on the custom tank, but you can actually get a basic custom tank for nearly the same price as a standard tank.


Yep, I had a 75g starphire 3 sides, frameless with external overflow built for the same price as a standard "reef ready" 75g tank at the local stores. My dimension were a bit different though as I went with a 3' x 2' foot print instead of the standard 48" x 18". It also pays to check around as I had other quotes that were much higher.

[mrhasan]

" Although english is not my first language but I think there's a well understood difference between "disagree" and "debate" and I am capable enough to understand the difference."

I guess I am just misinterpreting your comments then.

The lines you made bold are from a completely different thread where I showed that "expensive" LEDs cost benefit is extremely low. That's a completely different thread; Bill just pointed it out since I am well known to trigger such conclusions :razz:. And its about disproving the advertisement by those companies; I also pointed out good sides of LEDs in that thread too but I wouldn't buy the main line that all those companies put forth for LED; atleast not for the next 2/3 years. Its math :)

And about the disco; its not debatable because its either there or its not there for certain fixture....you cannot say you can't have a disco affect from a razor fixture.

Sorry for misinterpreting your comment. Those two points were from a thread few months ago so I just brought it up in context. My apology :)

[intarsiabox]

The lines you made bold are from a completely different thread where I showed that "expensive" LEDs cost benefit is extremely low. That's a completely different thread; Bill just pointed it out since I am well known to trigger such conclusions :razz:. And its about disproving the advertisement by those companies; I also pointed out good sides of LEDs in that thread too but I wouldn't buy the main line that all those companies put forth for LED; atleast not for the next 2/3 years. Its math :)

And about the disco; its not debatable because its either there or its not there for certain fixture....you cannot say you can't have a disco affect from a razor fixture.

Sorry for misinterpreting your comment. Those two points were from a thread few months ago so I just brought it up in context. My apology :)

Well I'm also grouchy today because I spent the day in freezing cold sump pit replacing pumps and then had to come home to 1 1/2 hours of shovelling snow. Now I have to proof read another of my wife's reports for her university degree which I know absolutely nothing about the subject (or care to) but have a knack for grammar and making her wording flow better and make more sense. I can actually write better than I do on Canreef.

[mrhasan]

Well I'm also grouchy today because I spent the day in freezing cold sump pit replacing pumps and then had to come home to 1 1/2 hours of shovelling snow. Now I have to proof read another of my wife's reports for her university degree which I know absolutely nothing about the subject (or care to) but have a knack for grammar and making her wording flow better and make more sense. I can actually write better than I do on Canreef.

:lol: Best of luck reviewing the report :)

I am still at the university staring at thousands of data in excel and trying to make fancy diagrams using illustrator....its just one of those days :P

Really sorry for escalating your mood with this thread.

[Doug]

I said, I dont want cords in my tank..................................Not in my sump

[mrhasan]

I said, I dont want cords in my tank..................................Not in my sump

You said that?! :neutral::surprise: Sorry Doug but that wasn't pointed at you :redface: Just an awkward coincidence :sad:

[Doug]

I know. Thats was suppose to be funny.

As for Tunze in comparison, I have owned more Tunze equipment than many. My 20g sps tank runs on the new Tunze 250 ReefPack.

As for pumps, I ran a pair of 6200 streams in my 225 and one in smaller tanks. They were the best pumps I owned, even the one that shorted out and sent lightning bolts from my metal halide reflector to my forehead. {many long term members will remember that story, :lol:}.

I just really like my MP 20. Ran flawless for years. Was going to buy Tunze for the new tank, but decided on adding an MP 40. And the two Im buying are used.

[mrhasan]

I know. Thats was suppose to be funny.

As for Tunze in comparison, I have owned more Tunze equipment than many. My 20g sps tank runs on the new Tunze 250 ReefPack.

As for pumps, I ran a pair of 6200 streams in my 225 and one in smaller tanks. They were the best pumps I owned, even the one that shorted out and sent lightning bolts from my metal halide reflector to my forehead. {many long term members will remember that story, :lol:}.

I just really like my MP 20. Ran flawless for years. Was going to buy Tunze for the new tank, but decided on adding an MP 40. And the two Im buying are used.

Did you feel like Raiden? Or Zeus? :lol:

[Doug]

Hmm. Have to go back and look. I dont even remember if it hurt.

I will say one thing for Tunze. Best service and warranty service I have had on any piece of equipment.

[SanguinesDream]

There's certain things that scares off many people, and "you pay what you get for" is one of them. Isn't this hobby about taking it slowly? Not everyone starts with big pocket and certain people don't need to scare them off.

This is an exclusive hobby, like having to own an F40 and an F50 before buying an Enzo, you can have a $h!tload of cash, but if you don't have the creds, money is only going to get you so far.

That being said, I think it tends to be a little too exclusive sometimes. There is this inordinate amount of pressure to upgrade when you have the ability. Raied, I remember the pressure on you to install a sump even though you didn't have the real estate.

I've been frowned upon for trying to ship livestock in many differing ways North, only to have more DOAs than successes. "Then maybe you shouldn't have anything but the hardiest of corals" its been said. Really?!?

Mental health is crucial and making a hobby inaccessible due to x,y and z is a form of exclusivity and I think we should try to be a little more accomodating/understanding to those in the hobby who face challenges. My $0.02.

[Slick Fork]

MRHasan: I'm not really sure what you're looking to achieve with this thread? Vindication that you can get by with budget equipment? A resounding chorus from budget reefers saying "Those who pay premium are idiots"?

There's nothing at all saying a cheap maxijet or some Chinese knockoff can't provide good flow. The difference, for me at least, is that when I buy Tunze equipment I'm buying a history of rock solid performance. I won't be worried that my pump will fail at 2am on a Saturday of a long weekend leaving me scrambling and in a panic. It's not the performance when it works that's the deciding factor for me, it's the peace of mind knowing that I bought a quality product that is statistically less likely to cause a catastrophic failure in my tank. Furthermore, if something does occur I've bought a product with warranty service that is second to none. Some people see more value in buying two cheap pumps in case one fails. Both are valid viewpoints and it comes down to where an individual sees the value.

Same with LED's. My AI SOL's work fine for me for now. They grow coral, they have a measure of controllability. That doesn't mean that there is ZERO value in the extra features of higher end fixtures such as better controllability, less disco effect, a better more metal halide-like shimmer, etc.

We get it, you don't have money because you're a student. Honestly, most of us have been there before and can sympathise. Just because some of us see the value in higher end gear doesn't make us idiots for spending more, and to be honest I'm sure most of us don't care if you want to spend less. To each his/her own.

[mrhasan]

MRHasan: I'm not really sure what you're looking to achieve with this thread? Vindication that you can get by with budget equipment? A resounding chorus from budget reefers saying "Those who pay premium are idiots"?

There's nothing at all saying a cheap maxijet or some Chinese knockoff can't provide good flow. The difference, for me at least, is that when I buy Tunze equipment I'm buying a history of rock solid performance. I won't be worried that my pump will fail at 2am on a Saturday of a long weekend leaving me scrambling and in a panic. It's not the performance when it works that's the deciding factor for me, it's the peace of mind knowing that I bought a quality product that is statistically less likely to cause a catastrophic failure in my tank. Furthermore, if something does occur I've bought a product with warranty service that is second to none. Some people see more value in buying two cheap pumps in case one fails. Both are valid viewpoints and it comes down to where an individual sees the value.

Same with LED's. My AI SOL's work fine for me for now. They grow coral, they have a measure of controllability. That doesn't mean that there is ZERO value in the extra features of higher end fixtures such as better controllability, less disco effect, a better more metal halide-like shimmer, etc.

We get it, you don't have money because you're a student. Honestly, most of us have been there before and can sympathise. Just because some of us see the value in higher end gear doesn't make us idiots for spending more, and to be honest I'm sure most of us don't care if you want to spend less. To each his/her own.

Nop my point was not that but my point was its kind of silly to push people to buy expensive stuffs. Its definitely fun to buy fancy stuffs (I bought myself an ATI dimmable fixture :D) but there are times where one ask "is bubble magus good" and there will be posts like "piece of crap (cause they are cheap) and you should get bubble king cause you get what you pay for"..... there's very few threads asking "what's your budget...hmm...that's the best you can get within that amount of money but here's some other options in case you were not sure" but rather "hey hey hold of to that, you dont wanna buy that cause its cheap, made in china...go for the more expensive one". That's all I am saying :smile:

[reefwars]

:twised::twised::twised::twised:


http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t599/conceptaquariums_denny/imgres_zps1cf77855.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/conceptaquariums_denny/media/imgres_zps1cf77855.jpg.html)



:twised::twised::twised::twised:

[Rice Reef]

I think I'll read this thread after a few drinks tonight as it may make more sense to me then... :drinking:

[mrhasan]

:twised::twised::twised::twised:


http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t599/conceptaquariums_denny/imgres_zps1cf77855.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/conceptaquariums_denny/media/imgres_zps1cf77855.jpg.html)



:twised::twised::twised::twised:

:lol:

[reefwars]

but there are times where one ask "is bubble magus good" and there will be posts like "piece of crap (cause they are cheap) and you should get bubble king cause you get what you pay for".:


got a quote or link....may help your case no??

[mrhasan]

got a quote or link....may help your case no??

I don't wanna put any links over here cause that might relate to personal attack which I definitely don't want to. What I wanted was to get make a point that to have a successful reef, you don't necessarily have to have the high end equipment out there. That is something that many new reefers get afraid of: cost of high end equipment. In this hobby, its all about getting a nice reef tank to get going and hence "do you really get what you pay for?" in context of having a reef tank.

[reefwars]

I don't wanna put any links over here cause that might relate to personal attack which I definitely don't want to. What I wanted was to get make a point that to have a successful reef, you don't necessarily have to have the high end equipment out there. That is something that many new reefers get afraid of: cost of high end equipment. In this hobby, its all about getting a nice reef tank to get going and hence "do you really get what you pay for?" in context of having a reef tank.

spose lol

[mrhasan]

spose lol

You paid for radion pros...did you "get" what you paid for? In this hobby, we spend money for nicer tank, did you get that from those? ;)

[Slick Fork]

You paid for radion pros...did you "get" what you paid for? In this hobby, we spend money for nicer tank, did you get that from those? ;)

I think that's the point though,

Radio Pro's may or may not give you a "nicer" tank than AI SOl's, but there are other reasons to buy things such as reliability, customisability, etc. that make it money well spent to some people. As such, it's in the eye of the beholder (spender). If you spend money upgrading from say a SOL to a Hydra just to have a "nicer" reef you may not get your moneys worth. If however, your goal is a broader light spectrum and more convenient programabillity than you'd probably feel your money was well spent.

I'm not terribly active on here anymore, but it seems to me that in most "help me buy equipment" type threads I've seen the OP either states their budget outright and people try to suggest things within that budget, or people try to suggest things within the whole spectrum. Those have certainly been my experience when I've wanted advice on a purchase. Have you considered that the "You get what you pay for" comments are from people who have tried cheaper stuff and had it fail at a really inopportune time, rather than people who are too heavily invested in their particular favourite brand?

[mrhasan]

I think that's the point though,

Radio Pro's may or may not give you a "nicer" tank than AI SOl's, but there are other reasons to buy things such as reliability, customisability, etc. that make it money well spent to some people. As such, it's in the eye of the beholder (spender). If you spend money upgrading from say a SOL to a Hydra just to have a "nicer" reef you may not get your moneys worth. If however, your goal is a broader light spectrum and more convenient programabillity than you'd probably feel your money was well spent.

I'm not terribly active on here anymore, but it seems to me that in most "help me buy equipment" type threads I've seen the OP either states their budget outright and people try to suggest things within that budget, or people try to suggest things within the whole spectrum. Those have certainly been my experience when I've wanted advice on a purchase. Have you considered that the "You get what you pay for" comments are from people who have tried cheaper stuff and had it fail at a really inopportune time, rather than people who are too heavily invested in their particular favourite brand?

Exactly that's what my point is. Different people will definitely have different opinion on whats "expensive". To me, a $20 lunch would be expensive (cause I can cook so much with that amount) but replacing 6x$22 T5s every year is not. Highly variable thing. But I go around forums (I have the habit of googling for everything I buy and go around other forums since canreef is actually very mild with nice reviews; hence I dont post in other forums), I find all sorts of "rants" making it look like less expensive things in the hobby are curses. I don't know about others but I feel terrible looking at those.

You don't see much in this forum regarding such rant since canreefers are nice. Although I have been in debate with some of the posters in this thread but they have been extremely nice to be in many cases; its just part of healthy debate I would say :) It got a bit tricky/mess/whichever word you use but...oh well...I know nothing is going to change between them and myself :)

And about the last bold line, I think its more from people who loves specific brands than those who have experimented. Because people who did cover the full spectrum from low end to high end (I myself did in some aspects) tends to have more practical opinion than just "buy the most expensive stuffs!".

[reefwars]

You paid for radion pros...did you "get" what you paid for? In this hobby, we spend money for nicer tank, did you get that from those? ;)

not sure why you would think i didnt as i think i did , got a price on them , paid it and the light worked just fine , in fact sold it as brand new and got some good moey back for it;PP

the sun works too ....

just for me this was a better choice for my tank at the time.

whats your argument exactly? that highend lights dont do as good a job as low end or that low end dont do a good as a job as highend?

still dont see anything in this thread but complaining about highend stuff lol

[mrhasan]

not sure why you would think i didnt as i think i did , got a price on them , paid it and the light worked just fine , in fact sold it as brand new and got some good moey back for it;PP

the sun works too ....

just for me this was a better choice for my tank at the time.

whats your argument exactly? that highend lights dont do as good a job as low end or that low end dont do a good as a job as highend?

still dont see anything in this thread but complaining about highend stuff lol

So, it was a better choice for you at that time but not now. Hence it might not be a better choice for someone else for now a.k.a paying for high end fixture doesn't necessarily mean its bound to work for you. In context to your comment, here's my point:

"highend stuffs may do a good job and cheap stuffs may also do a good job; paying for higher priced equipment is no shortcut to a successful reef and doesn't necessarily mean you are paying for the best choice and successful reef is possible with low end fixtures".

[reefwars]

So, it was a better choice for you at that time but not now. Hence it might not be a better choice for someone else for now a.k.a paying for high end fixture doesn't necessarily mean its bound to work for you. In context to your comment, here's my point:

"highend stuffs may do a good job and cheap stuffs may also do a good job; paying for higher priced equipment is no shortcut to a successful reef and doesn't necessarily mean you are paying for the best choice and successful reef is possible with low end fixtures".

my friend , i think you should read a little and maybe think about it before posting and heres why.....

you dont understand what im saying and prob what most others are saying, all you hear is " you paid how much". while i could have kept my radion pros im not sure how 2 radons can light up 11ft of tank?? ( 2 x 5 1/2 ft systems) and i dont think they are a good fit both in regards to sps colors im trying to aquire and to photography, can i ask what did you find with your led light in regards to both? maybe im missing something lol

my reason for leaving leds has nothing to do with " x " amount of dollars vs " xxx " amount of dollars or i wouldnt of bought the pros lol being high end or low end had nothing to do with it i think you got your facts completely mixed up and backwards.

again all i see is a " i hate high end stuffs " thread that has no direction at all lol



care to explain?

[reefwars]

So, it was a better choice for you at that time but not now.


now your learning lol

[mrhasan]

now your learning lol

LOL :mrgreen:

[Madreefer]

my friend , i think you should read a little and maybe think about it before posting and heres why.....


That's what the problem is here. More reading than experience mixed with back peddling. Unsubscribed

[mrhasan]

my friend , i think you should read a little and maybe think about it before posting and heres why.....

you dont understand what im saying and prob what most others are saying, all you hear is " you paid how much". while i could have kept my radion pros im not sure how 2 radons can light up 11ft of tank?? ( 2 x 5 1/2 ft systems) and i dont think they are a good fit both in regards to sps colors im trying to aquire and to photography, can i ask what did you find with your led light in regards to both? maybe im missing something lol

my reason for leaving leds has nothing to do with " x " amount of dollars vs " xxx " amount of dollars or i wouldnt of bought the pros lol being high end or low end had nothing to do with it i think you got your facts completely mixed up and backwards.

again all i see is a " i hate high end stuffs " thread that has no direction at all lol

care to explain?

Ok so basically this is how the thread went:

Step 1: I opened up a thread saying which stuffs I prefer to spend my money and which I don't and I believe you dont always get what you pay for.

Step 2: I keep on saying that there are people who strongly believe that you pay what you get for and they insist that nothing is achievable by low-end fixture

Step 3: Apparently, everything gets concluded as "rant for high end stuffs" :razz:

Denny, my point has been from the very beginning of the thread (with some diversion) is that "you don't always get what you pay for". I don't know where it is so hard to understand. It is not always about the money but about what you are going to be successful with. Since we are on LEDs, let me bring on example up. Many people have success with AI and many have success with radions. There you go: the complete spectrum! And few weeks ago regarding an LED, someone keeps on pointing out that you should go for "HIGH END FIXTURE" to have success. That's my rant. Disprove me if you may! Success can be achieved by all means and cannot be judged by how many high end stuffs you have. As simple as that: that's my whole point. You are the kind of guy who gives all sort of option irrespective of price. I still remember you saying "odyssea should be fine on your tank" instead of saying "thats complete crap; change it asap or you won't be able to grow anything". I have dealt with you too many times than anyone here and you have never judged (atleast not for my purchases) on the money but rather than the actual quality.

And funny how the so called "experience" play around the game. When a guy who talks about how high end stuffs may not always work for you, thats total crap, must have experience before talking and "back peddling" but when a guy comes forth saying "hey don't buy that, I "heard" they can burn down your house", experience doesn't matter and that's rock solid advice right there. What can I say :)

[intarsiabox]

but there are times where one ask "is bubble magus good" and there will be posts like "piece of crap (cause they are cheap) and you should get bubble king cause you get what you pay foram saying

My direct experience with BM was after about 8 months the pump would get really hot and shut down, then it would and repeat the procedure. BM did send me a new pump and I used it for a week or so then I sold it. About a month later I got an email from the guy who bought it and he said that the new pump actually blew up and took his sump out with it. He wasn't accusing me of anything just had some questions about what to do as the skimmer wasn't a year old yet. I had him contact Michael and as far as I know Aqua-Digital took care of him on this. So I would be hesitant to recommend any BM product not because they are cheap but because of my experience with the product. Point is not everyone is telling people not to buy cheap stuff just because of the price point. Some of the bad stories you hear are actually true.

[jorjef]

:deadhorse:

[mrhasan]

My direct experience with BM was after about 8 months the pump would get really hot and shut down, then it would and repeat the procedure. BM did send me a new pump and I used it for a week or so then I sold it. About a month later I got an email from the guy who bought it and he said that the new pump actually blew up and took his sump out with it. He wasn't accusing me of anything just had some questions about what to do as the skimmer wasn't a year old yet. I had him contact Michael and as far as I know Aqua-Digital took care of him on this. So I would be hesitant to recommend any BM product not because they are cheap but because of my experience with the product. Point is not everyone is telling people not to buy cheap stuff just because of the price point. Some of the bad stories you hear are actually true.

True that :) Atleast you didn't make me feel like I am "lying" because I don't have the experience, thanks :) Some people are good in doing that ;) I had a vertex in-80/100 pump burn on me :razz:

[mrhasan]

:deadhorse:

I knew you would return :mrgreen:

[Aquattro]

Success can be achieved by all means and cannot be judged by how many high end stuffs you have

But you assume that success is the only motivation in selection of item. It isn't. I choose my controller for ease of tank management. I choose it for it's form factor and interface. I choose it for it's programming model.
My LEDs were selected for how they would look as an overall part of the tank design in the main room of my house. AI Sols have a very nice design and fit well with the theme of my tank.
I choose pumps for how quiet they are, how easy they are to clean and how convenient spare parts are to acquire.
Each piece of equipment has far many more criteria for selection than "will I be successful".
And with these considerations, I find, that in most situations pertaining to my tank and my wallet, I got exactly what I paid for. And none of it has anything to do with how successful it will make me in reef keeping. I have a knack for growing SPS and could probably be successful with a proverbial stick and a blanket. The value of my purchases goes far beyond that.

I too wonder what the hell you're going on about. I think your line of reasoning is very narrow minded and you're arguing in a circle. The best success in reef keeping is being happy with how you've proceeded in the journey. Enjoy your tank, or don't. Stop arguing over something that doesn't have a winning side.

[mrhasan]

But you assume that success is the only motivation in selection of item. It isn't. I choose my controller for ease of tank management. I choose it for it's form factor and interface. I choose it for it's programming model.
My LEDs were selected for how they would look as an overall part of the tank design in the main room of my house. AI Sols have a very nice design and fit well with the theme of my tank.
I choose pumps for how quiet they are, how easy they are to clean and how convenient spare parts are to acquire.
Each piece of equipment has far many more criteria for selection than "will I be successful".
And with these considerations, I find, that in most situations pertaining to my tank and my wallet, I got exactly what I paid for. And none of it has anything to do with how successful it will make me in reef keeping. I have a knack for growing SPS and could probably be successful with a proverbial stick and a blanket. The value of my purchases goes far beyond that.

I too wonder what the hell you're going on about. I think your line of reasoning is very narrow minded and you're arguing in a circle. The best success in reef keeping is being happy with how you've proceeded in the journey. Enjoy your tank, or don't. Stop arguing over something that doesn't have a winning side.

This will not be a winning side. And I am going in circle because I just have one point to prove over here and nothing else :) It just ****es me off when I ask for an advice on an equipment and someone comes forth and say "don't buy that, because you get what you pay for". Well if it suits me, I buy it, I don't like things being judged by money: because that's sets by some companies out there on their own analysis.

In the end, all it matters is what you wrote (pointed in bold). If you can afford expensive stuffs, do it. If someone can't, don't push it on him/her. I couldn't afford an expensive fixture earlier but now I can; I know how it feels when someone judge you on that. A person who started with all the good stuffs won't understand; I should have known that :)

I will stop now....have had enough fun. Cheers! :smile:

[Aquattro]

Often the person "judging" is simply giving good advice in the wrong way. I was just outside talking to my Border Collie about this, and as you know, they're pretty smart.
He pointed out the BBQ. Let me tell you about my BBQ journey. I like to eat meat. A lot. So some years ago, I decided to buy a BBQ. I'm cheap when it comes to things like that, so I went to crappy tire and bought the season end floor model for $79. No assembly required!!
I took it home (had to buy a tank on the way home) and fired it up. Cooked me a burger that was delicious. It was the best BBQ burger in the history of burgers. Overall, a very successful BBQ. But as time passed, I realized I couldn't cook a lot of burgers, and it got to hot to cook fish, and it rusted up after a couple seasons. It was an eyesore. But it was mine, and could still cook a successful burger.
One day I was out shopping and came across a shiny stainless BBQ. $500!!! But it has 4 burner controls, radiant heating, side burners, digital displays, etc. And it looks nice!
I bought it, took it home (came with everything I needed including tank) and fired it up. Yup, another epic burger. It was delicious. Montreal steak spice really rocks a burger. It was no better than the old BBQ burger though. Equally successful at cooking burgers.
But, and here's the value added part. It can cook lots of burgers Like a dozen or more at a time. I can bake a salmon, or cook a roast. And I can boil corn on the side and keep it all warm until everything it done. It's shiny, did I mention that?? It's still shiny, and when I walk by and see it on my deck, I like it. I like that I have a nicer than crap $79 sale BBQ. It impresses my BBQ friends. It rocks, it rolls. It sings and dances. I love my BBQ. Best damn $500 I ever spent.
Now, this is the point where I got what I paid for. I paid for consumer satisfaction, that my BBQ, in addition to successfully cooking burgers, can do so much more. It makes me happy. 2 years later, I'm still happy. I still love my BBQ. I don't envy other BBQs and don't wish I had a better one. It's awesome.

So, if you come to Brad's BBQ forum, and ask which BBQ to buy, I'm going to tell you to avoid that crappy $79 BBQ. It's sh1t. The $500 is way better. It is. It can't cook that burger any better, but it's way better in so many other ways. So my advice is save for the BBQ you need, not settle for what you can afford right now. You won't like that advice, and you'll argue about it. But the advice comes from a Border Collie, and they're smarter than anything. You should listen. Unless you really need a burger now and are content not having all that other stuff. In the end though, you almost always get what you pay for, in some form or fashion. It's not about the burger, it's about the happy.

P.S. Rig says you're welcome.

[WarDog]

Often the person "judging" is simply giving good advice in the wrong way. I was just outside talking to my Border Collie about this, and as you know, they're pretty smart.
He pointed out the BBQ. Let me tell you about my BBQ journey. I like to eat meat. A lot. So some years ago, I decided to buy a BBQ. I'm cheap when it comes to things like that, so I went to crappy tire and bought the season end floor model for $79. No assembly required!!
I took it home (had to buy a tank on the way home) and fired it up. Cooked me a burger that was delicious. It was the best BBQ burger in the history of burgers. Overall, a very successful BBQ. But as time passed, I realized I couldn't cook a lot of burgers, and it got to hot to cook fish, and it rusted up after a couple seasons. It was an eyesore. But it was mine, and could still cook a successful burger.
One day I was out shopping and came across a shiny stainless BBQ. $500!!! But it has 4 burner controls, radiant heating, side burners, digital displays, etc. And it looks nice!
I bought it, took it home (came with everything I needed including tank) and fired it up. Yup, another epic burger. It was delicious. Montreal steak spice really rocks a burger. It was no better than the old BBQ burger though. Equally successful at cooking burgers.
But, and here's the value added part. It can cook lots of burgers Like a dozen or more at a time. I can bake a salmon, or cook a roast. And I can boil corn on the side and keep it all warm until everything it done. It's shiny, did I mention that?? It's still shiny, and when I walk by and see it on my deck, I like it. I like that I have a nicer than crap $79 sale BBQ. It impresses my BBQ friends. It rocks, it rolls. It sings and dances. I love my BBQ. Best damn $500 I ever spent.
Now, this is the point where I got what I paid for. I paid for consumer satisfaction, that my BBQ, in addition to successfully cooking burgers, can do so much more. It makes me happy. 2 years later, I'm still happy. I still love my BBQ. I don't envy other BBQs and don't wish I had a better one. It's awesome.



But you still need to fill a tank. I would have got the NG version... I guess you got what you paid for! :turn-l:

[mrhasan]

Often the person "judging" is simply giving good advice in the wrong way. I was just outside talking to my Border Collie about this, and as you know, they're pretty smart.
He pointed out the BBQ. Let me tell you about my BBQ journey. I like to eat meat. A lot. So some years ago, I decided to buy a BBQ. I'm cheap when it comes to things like that, so I went to crappy tire and bought the season end floor model for $79. No assembly required!!
I took it home (had to buy a tank on the way home) and fired it up. Cooked me a burger that was delicious. It was the best BBQ burger in the history of burgers. Overall, a very successful BBQ. But as time passed, I realized I couldn't cook a lot of burgers, and it got to hot to cook fish, and it rusted up after a couple seasons. It was an eyesore. But it was mine, and could still cook a successful burger.
One day I was out shopping and came across a shiny stainless BBQ. $500!!! But it has 4 burner controls, radiant heating, side burners, digital displays, etc. And it looks nice!
I bought it, took it home (came with everything I needed including tank) and fired it up. Yup, another epic burger. It was delicious. Montreal steak spice really rocks a burger. It was no better than the old BBQ burger though. Equally successful at cooking burgers.
But, and here's the value added part. It can cook lots of burgers Like a dozen or more at a time. I can bake a salmon, or cook a roast. And I can boil corn on the side and keep it all warm until everything it done. It's shiny, did I mention that?? It's still shiny, and when I walk by and see it on my deck, I like it. I like that I have a nicer than crap $79 sale BBQ. It impresses my BBQ friends. It rocks, it rolls. It sings and dances. I love my BBQ. Best damn $500 I ever spent.
Now, this is the point where I got what I paid for. I paid for consumer satisfaction, that my BBQ, in addition to successfully cooking burgers, can do so much more. It makes me happy. 2 years later, I'm still happy. I still love my BBQ. I don't envy other BBQs and don't wish I had a better one. It's awesome.

So, if you come to Brad's BBQ forum, and ask which BBQ to buy, I'm going to tell you to avoid that crappy $79 BBQ. It's sh1t. The $500 is way better. It is. It can't cook that burger any better, but it's way better in so many other ways. So my advice is save for the BBQ you need, not settle for what you can afford right now. You won't like that advice, and you'll argue about it. But the advice comes from a Border Collie, and they're smarter than anything. You should listen. Unless you really need a burger now and are content not having all that other stuff. In the end though, you almost always get what you pay for, in some form or fashion. It's not about the burger, it's about the happy.

P.S. Rig says you're welcome.

Reading that brought tears of joy Brad. Thanks :) Made my day (in the forum). That's how people should explain it instead of the "bashing" part. And give my regards to Rig :D When I stop by in Victoria, I will try to stop by for a burger (if you let me after all these :razz:); and you can't definitely love/eat more meat than an south asian guy :wink:

[Aquattro]

But you still need to fill a tank. I would have got the NG version... I guess you got what you paid for! :turn-l:

Since I don't have gas on my street, I went the right way :)

[Aquattro]

and you can't definitely love/eat more meat than an south asian guy :wink:

minimum 1kg daily. If you can afford that as a student, you can afford Mitras -lol

[reeferfulton]

Brad! Best bbq speech I've ever read. Infact, best. Post you have ever made here on canreef.. lol just kidding.

You should be a bbq salesman.

Can you gives us a food metaphor speech in regards to what happens when you buy the more expensive item because you think it's better, but it turns out to be worse then the lower prices option.

Thanks. Look forward to reading brad's bbq part 2:biggrin:

[mark]

I'd like to get more input from the collie on stuff

[reefwars]

I'd like to get more input from the collie on stuff

Haha he's never wrong

[Aquattro]

Haha he's never wrong

It's true!

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

You should ask Rig's advice before you post more often Brad.

Excellent analogy.

I too went with cheaper (but still decent brand bbqs like Broil Mate and Broil King). Now I have a Weber E320 LP, LOOOOOOOOOVE it. So yeah, I know what you mean. Now I want to replace my two Weber Q300s with another E320!!!

I read a lot of posts on Canreef and its NOT that often that people simply recommend the high end, most expensive equipment when someone asks about what to buy. In fact, far more often, members will recommend what they have in their tanks, which is mostly mid-range equipment.

mrhasan,

You are trying to win an unwinnable argument and repeating yourself ad nauseam (i.e. Latin term for something unpleasurable that has continued "to [the point of] nausea".)

Really, it is NOT all hype. Sometimes equipment that is expensive is really worth the extra money to the buyers. MOST buyers are NOT getting it just because its expensive. MOST members here are too smart with their hard-earned money (if being a Reefer & being "too smart with their money is not oxymoronic) to throw away money on buying something because of hype. One reason we are on this site and other fish sites is to do our research before making a purchase. If you are soooo against people "buying" the hype, its not reefers who go online to ask and answer questions. Its actually the newbie with a big bank account who goes into his/her LFS and tells the salesperson "I don't know anything about reefing but I want a top of the line reef and money is not an issue" who then gets all the expensive toys because they never bothered to research what they actually need. Its almost always newbies who get "ripped off" like this, whereas most Canreefers who come on this board and ask valid questions before making their purchasing choices usually make a decision that is right for them.

While I LOVE a bargain more than almost anybody I know, and most of my equipment is used if its high end (i.e. Deltec recirc skimmers), and the rest is the affordable Chinese knock-offs you love (Jebao & BM) or DIY (my LED lights), if someone was to off me an awesome deal on a Bubble King skimmer or a Radion light at a price I can't refuse, I'd be all over that. And guess what, SO WOULD YOU!!!!

From my analysis of your postings on this thread, its NOT the brands or the equipment, per se, that you are railing about. It's purely the PRICE of these high end equipment when buying retail that has you all worked up.

Seriously, if you could pick up a Bubble King lightly used from a reefer getting out at the price of a new Bubble Magus, YOU WOULD DO IT IN A SECOND. And you'd probably keep quiet about it until everyone forgets about this thread.

It is NOT that you love Jebao or Bubble Magus so much, that is what you can afford and the price range you want to spend on your equipment. That's fine. I like this same low-end price range myself. But if either of us found a great deal on the top-end equipment, we'd be fighting over who gets to buy it first and don't fool yourself into thinking you wouldn't.

So that is what I have distilled from your many posts and repeated statements in this thread. It's really NOT about being POed at the hype or the "You get what you pay for", it's a "Bubble King is out of my price range and I only want to spend BM-level money on my equipment" type rant.

Personally, I prefer spending on livestock rather than super high end equipment like new Bubble King skimmers. But if someone was to contact me with a great deal on their BK skimmer, I'd be all over that. In the meantime, super happy with my inexpensive, used Deltec skimmers (which were top of the line before BK came out).

Not a personal attack, since you & I share similar thoughts about our personal price range. Just summarizing up my thoughts after following this highly repetitive thread over the last couple of days.

It was amusing for a while, but...

Sincerely,

Anthony "not a personal attack" Shieh

(Note: Also a meat-loving, bbqing-nut reefer from South Asia - Malaysia to be exact)

[mrhasan]

You should ask Rig's advice before you post more often Brad.

Excellent analogy.

I too went with cheaper (but still decent brand bbqs like Broil Mate and Broil King). Now I have a Weber E320 LP, LOOOOOOOOOVE it. So yeah, I know what you mean. Now I want to replace my two Weber Q300s with another E320!!!

I read a lot of posts on Canreef and its NOT that often that people simply recommend the high end, most expensive equipment when someone asks about what to buy. In fact, far more often, members will recommend what they have in their tanks, which is mostly mid-range equipment.

mrhasan,

You are trying to win an unwinnable argument and repeating yourself ad nauseam (i.e. Latin term for something unpleasurable that has continued "to [the point of] nausea".)

Really, it is NOT all hype. Sometimes equipment that is expensive is really worth the extra money to the buyers. MOST buyers are NOT getting it just because its expensive. MOST members here are too smart with their hard-earned money (if being a Reefer & being "too smart with their money is not oxymoronic) to throw away money on buying something because of hype. One reason we are on this site and other fish sites is to do our research before making a purchase. If you are soooo against people "buying" the hype, its not reefers who go online to ask and answer questions. Its actually the newbie with a big bank account who goes into his/her LFS and tells the salesperson "I don't know anything about reefing but I want a top of the line reef and money is not an issue" who then gets all the expensive toys because they never bothered to research what they actually need. Its almost always newbies who get "ripped off" like this, whereas most Canreefers who come on this board and ask valid questions before making their purchasing choices usually make a decision that is right for them.

While I LOVE a bargain more than almost anybody I know, and most of my equipment is used if its high end (i.e. Deltec recirc skimmers), and the rest is the affordable Chinese knock-offs you love (Jebao & BM) or DIY (my LED lights), if someone was to off me an awesome deal on a Bubble King skimmer or a Radion light at a price I can't refuse, I'd be all over that. And guess what, SO WOULD YOU!!!!

From my analysis of your postings on this thread, its NOT the brands or the equipment, per se, that you are railing about. It's purely the PRICE of these high end equipment when buying retail that has you all worked up.

Seriously, if you could pick up a Bubble King lightly used from a reefer getting out at the price of a new Bubble Magus, YOU WOULD DO IT IN A SECOND. And you'd probably keep quiet about it until everyone forgets about this thread.

It is NOT that you love Jebao or Bubble Magus so much, that is what you can afford and the price range you want to spend on your equipment. That's fine. I like this same low-end price range myself. But if either of us found a great deal on the top-end equipment, we'd be fighting over who gets to buy it first and don't fool yourself into thinking you wouldn't.

So that is what I have distilled from your many posts and repeated statements in this thread. It's really NOT about being POed at the hype or the "You get what you pay for", it's a "Bubble King is out of my price range and I only want to spend BM-level money on my equipment" type rant.

Personally, I prefer spending on livestock rather than super high end equipment like new Bubble King skimmers. But if someone was to contact me with a great deal on their BK skimmer, I'd be all over that. In the meantime, super happy with my inexpensive, used Deltec skimmers (which were top of the line before BK came out).

Not a personal attack, since you & I share similar thoughts about our personal price range. Just summarizing up my thoughts after following this highly repetitive thread over the last couple of days.

It was amusing for a while, but...

Sincerely,

Anthony "not a personal attack" Shieh

(Note: Also a meat-loving, bbqing-nut reefer from South Asia - Malaysia to be exact)

Nicely put Anthony. Thanks for the awesome insight :D

[Reef Pilot]

Nicely put Anthony. Thanks for the awesome insight :D
+1... Great posts (and a pleasure not to read bad grammer) by both Anthony and Brad.

And as for BBQ's I have both types. A cheapie crappy tire type for home and a higher end one (Broil King, probably more mid range) for our lake cabin. Might not make sense to some, but at home we don't BBQ much, whereas at the lake we often have larger groups of friends and family stay over and it is so much nicer to cook outside there.

So for me, the mission determines more what I buy... And my wife never accuses me of vanity...haha.

[StirCrazy]

Often the person "judging" is simply giving good advice in the wrong way. I was just outside talking to my Border Collie about this, and as you know, they're pretty smart.
He pointed out the BBQ. Let me tell you about my BBQ journey. I like to eat meat. A lot. So some years ago, I decided to buy a BBQ. I'm cheap when it comes to things like that, so I went to crappy tire and bought the season end floor model for $79. No assembly required!!
I took it home (had to buy a tank on the way home) and fired it up. Cooked me a burger that was delicious. It was the best BBQ burger in the history of burgers. Overall, a very successful BBQ. But as time passed, I realized I couldn't cook a lot of burgers, and it got to hot to cook fish, and it rusted up after a couple seasons. It was an eyesore. But it was mine, and could still cook a successful burger.
One day I was out shopping and came across a shiny stainless BBQ. $500!!! But it has 4 burner controls, radiant heating, side burners, digital displays, etc. And it looks nice!
I bought it, took it home (came with everything I needed including tank) and fired it up. Yup, another epic burger. It was delicious. Montreal steak spice really rocks a burger. It was no better than the old BBQ burger though. Equally successful at cooking burgers.
But, and here's the value added part. It can cook lots of burgers Like a dozen or more at a time. I can bake a salmon, or cook a roast. And I can boil corn on the side and keep it all warm until everything it done. It's shiny, did I mention that?? It's still shiny, and when I walk by and see it on my deck, I like it. I like that I have a nicer than crap $79 sale BBQ. It impresses my BBQ friends. It rocks, it rolls. It sings and dances. I love my BBQ. Best damn $500 I ever spent.
Now, this is the point where I got what I paid for. I paid for consumer satisfaction, that my BBQ, in addition to successfully cooking burgers, can do so much more. It makes me happy. 2 years later, I'm still happy. I still love my BBQ. I don't envy other BBQs and don't wish I had a better one. It's awesome.

So, if you come to Brad's BBQ forum, and ask which BBQ to buy, I'm going to tell you to avoid that crappy $79 BBQ. It's sh1t. The $500 is way better. It is. It can't cook that burger any better, but it's way better in so many other ways. So my advice is save for the BBQ you need, not settle for what you can afford right now. You won't like that advice, and you'll argue about it. But the advice comes from a Border Collie, and they're smarter than anything. You should listen. Unless you really need a burger now and are content not having all that other stuff. In the end though, you almost always get what you pay for, in some form or fashion. It's not about the burger, it's about the happy.

P.S. Rig says you're welcome.



not a real good argument for this discussion for one reason Brad, you are comparing a bargain basement priced to a medium priced bbq, in this range there is a huge difference that you found out like the case material and such, but when you start looking from mid range to high end a lot of the differences are name branding and gimmicks, hmm something like the fish industry.

think back 10 years ago to the debates between extruded and cell cast skimmer bodies, retailers were charging twice as much just because the body was cell cast, did it make a difference on performance nope, but they would have you think it would.

you mentioned having something do what you want it to do in form and function, this is a valid point that I agree whole heartedly with. if you are willing to pay more for a look then it is worth it to you and you get your moneys worth, if you are willing to pay more for special functions then it is worth it to you, but it doesn't mean you get what you pay for, it just means you were willing to pay more for a certain something, and most of the time that certain something has nothing to do with the success of your tank.

I have always been a function over form kind of guy who will have ugly equipment inside a nice stand.

Steve

[Aquattro]

Sure, go and wreck it. :neutral:

[TimT]

think back 10 years ago to the debates between extruded and cell cast skimmer bodies, retailers were charging twice as much just because the body was cell cast, did it make a difference on performance nope, but they would have you think it would.

If you don't consider durability and clarity aspects of performance then I would agree. There is a large difference in strength and thickness between cell cast and extruded tube. Extruded acrylic tube is thin and brittle and fractures easily. So if your willing to risk having the bottom of your skimmer blow out if it gets a big bump or break if it falls over then go for it. I however would rather have a skimmer that will last a long time, take abuse and not flood the place. It makes for less worry when sleeping or being away on holidays.

I bought one of those shiny new stainless barbeques at Costco for $109. It can't cook as many burgers or souvlaki as the $500 model and it has rusted out on the burner covers after 2 years. Shoulda spent the $500. I will agree with Brad on this one.

When it comes to fish the difference can be more subtle and devastating. Take for example Flame Angels. The cheap Christmas Islands ones used to be held in plastic cups in the lagoons. They had heat stress issues and were not that strong. Yes they were cheap and they looked like a Flame Angel so everyone buys them. They gleefully brag about how cheap their Flame Angel was until it dies shortly after or only lives 6 months. This gives the other Flame Angels from Hawaii, Marshall Islands and Vanuatu a bad reputation. These Flame angels are more money because there is far more care taken in collection and holding. You get what you pay for.

A friend of mine who used to be in the hobby once calculated the value of fish in his tank verses the amount of money he spent on fish. He purchased all the fish from the same store over a 1 year period. It was a 10 to 1 ratio but the fish were cheap at the store. He learned his lesson.

There is a reason why the German and Japanese LFS are some of the best in the world... you get what you pay for.

[kien]

Yesterday I paid $18 for a movie ticket. Did I get what I paid for? Yes! I got an $18 movie ticket for the $18.

[Aquattro]

Yesterday I paid $18 for a movie ticket. Did I get what I paid for? Yes! I got an $18 movie ticket for the $18.

That's amazing!! So it isn't marketing hype at all. Wow.

[reefwars]

Yesterday I paid $18 for a movie ticket. Did I get what I paid for? Yes! I got an $18 movie ticket for the $18.

Shoulda bought the $23 one much better and the only.way to see a movie lol:pppppp

[mrhasan]

Yesterday I paid $18 for a movie ticket. Did I get what I paid for? Yes! I got an $18 movie ticket for the $18.

Is it that you paid $18 because the movie ticket that is $18 or the movie ticket is $18 because you paid $18? Damn close loop!

[The Grizz]

Way to many long winded post to read!!

Brett, must have been a chick flick you seen for $18 :lol:

[mrhasan]

Shoulda bought the $23 one much better and the only.way to see a movie lol:pppppp

I am guessing that includes the complete package which helps you maintain the ionic balance while you dose yourself with popcorn and pop; so that you don't overdose with pop ions. ;)

[mrhasan]

Way to many long winded post to read!!

Brett, must have been a chick flick you seen for $18 :lol:

Please don't. You will hate me and bite off my limbs; I don't wanna loose them yet. Doc said I need to walk a lot to be alive. :redface:

[Doug]

The only time I get what I pay for is Maple Crown Royal....:D

[kien]

Yesterday I paid $18 for a movie ticket. Did I get what I paid for? Yes! I got an $18 movie ticket for the $18.

Way to many long winded post to read!!

Brett, must have been a chick flick you seen for $18 :lol:

Did you just call me Brett?!?! That's a new low..

[The Grizz]

Did you just call me Brett?!?! That's a new low..
My bad, to many long winded post like I said and got you to confused, as you both do kinda look like twins in a Schwarzenegger /DeVito way. :razz:

Just edit that for me ok.

[StirCrazy]

If you don't consider durability and clarity aspects of performance then I would agree. There is a large difference in strength and thickness between cell cast and extruded tube. Extruded acrylic tube is thin and brittle and fractures easily. So if your willing to risk having the bottom of your skimmer blow out if it gets a big bump or break if it falls over then go for it. I however would rather have a skimmer that will last a long time, take abuse and not flood the place. It makes for less worry when sleeping or being away on holidays..

ahh here is the problem, most of the difference was hype from manufactures that were using cell cast, or LFS trying to charge even more, I know of several extruded going for over 20 years now, no yellowing, crazing, etc. there is truth to the slightly thicker and clearer, but skimmers reactors and such are very low if not zero pressure applications so no worry, as for bottom blowing out and such that is from pour gluing and prep not material, I have chunks of extruded I have abused pretty hard and I can tell you its not brittle.



I bought one of those shiny new stainless barbeques at Costco for $109. It can't cook as many burgers or souvlaki as the $500 model and it has rusted out on the burner covers after 2 years. Shoulda spent the $500. I will agree with Brad on this one..

I agreed with him to so don't know what your point is in this one, once again there is a huge difference between bottom end and mid grade, but is there much difference between your 500 buck BBQ and my 2000.00 buck one aside from I can maybe cook a few more burgers and might be sear function that tell you the truth I never use... that was my point mid grade to high grade may not be worth the difference in money



There is a reason why the German and Japanese LFS are some of the best in the world... you get what you pay for.

exactly and oh so often we don't get what we pay for in Canada.. we pay way to much for what were getting

Steve

[kien]

you both do kinda look like twins in a Schwarzenegger /DeVito way. :razz:

Did you just call me fat???

[wickedfrags]

agreed, personal worth.

my 36" light fixture has a higher replacement value than my primary vehicle (which I also really like).

not everyone gets that.............ok most will never get that!

Part of the problem is that "worth" and "value" are very subjective terms which underscore the phrase, "You get what you pay for." We've already got plenty of examples of this with your car analogy.

In our household we do own a more expensive Audi which in my opinion is over priced for what you get. It has 4 wheels that gets you from point A to Point B. My much cheaper Murano does the same thing and is actually much more comfortable to drive and hauls more junk in the trunk.

And I for one don't think it's expensive to buy a bucket of H2Ocean while everyone who uses IO will think it's ridiculously expensive. Meanwhile, I went to Starbucks rather than Tim Hortons for a coffee today. Did I get what I paid for? Well, I paid $5 for a coffee and I got a $5 coffee, so I guess I got what I paid for :biggrin:

Bottom line, yes, you get what you pay for, and no, you don't get what you pay for.

[The Grizz]

Did you just call me fat???

NOOOOO Never not me I would say some thing like that!!!!

[mike31154]

Ok, might be getting a little too political here, but our modern capitalist society is fueled by hype, particularly these days with the interweb at anyone's disposal to sell whatever can be conjured up. Worthwhile products along with snake oil.

As I get older & wiser myself, more & more I see the wisdom in Jack's take on life, despite the fact that I may offend all the Oprah & Dr. Phil fans out there...

https://6t2eag.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pFcApOi7SAi-svVRG_lYyyN5fTI0mSAKKBaEuTKGTvZfSMrtJ-p49htkTeCI9JHny02nxQX39cA9sGxcwwwZGCbfcX6TlzAYi0AN 1Cr9zHsY/Jack.jpg?psid=1

and if you think you didn't get what you paid for, you can always diy or modify it...

https://6t2eag.bay.livefilestore.com/y2p2arkQbZ1_LkYI3-CSnABMpYeAtlvZzktHtnmsE1Wy2Q_UoV321_jj1CWbaZBBxk_b s63PrZw_1BmJ46Srpp9VS8tqx4j7mKKdBvtrdPifqA/mower.gif?psid=1

However, admittedly, I am still fickle with regard to my spending habits. While I do own Vortech pumps & have no regrets spending the money, I also run an old school air diffuser driven skimmer that came with my used salt water set up. I like to think I did my homework before spending that kind of money on a pump as well as not spending any kind of money on a skimmer.

[Magickiwi]

After many years of retail and consumer experience I do know this: The more hype a product gets the weaker it is. A few examples that people will probably recognize are

1) Movies (the more commercials the worse the movie is)
2) Cellphones (remember the LG Chocolate? How many iphone commercials do you remember seeing on TV?)
3) Chrysler products (flame on!)
4) Women (sorry ladies but I'm sure you'll agree: the more they advertise the less they are worth the trouble)

[SteveCGY]

After many years of retail and consumer experience I do know this: The more hype a product gets the weaker it is. A few examples that people will probably recognize are

1) Movies (the more commercials the worse the movie is)
2) Cellphones (remember the LG Chocolate? How many iphone commercials do you remember seeing on TV?)
3) Chrysler products (flame on!)
4) Women (sorry ladies but I'm sure you'll agree: the more they advertise the less they are worth the trouble)


Totally agree with this. If a product is worth it's weight in gold it will sell itself.

[mrhasan]

I bought an ecotech PK today. And I will be getting what I paid for :)

[StirCrazy]

After many years of retail and consumer experience I do know this: The more hype a product gets the weaker it is. A few examples that people will probably recognize are

How many iphone commercials do you remember seeing on TV?)


hmmm, your listing one of the most advertised brands in history.... but I agree apple is week. :wink:

Steve