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View Full Version : Ick, hyposalinity, and other mistakes...


Scuba Diver Gal
11-15-2013, 09:14 PM
Hello,

Needing some advice. This is my son's tank but I help him with it as we are both new to the hobby. We have a 29 gallon biocube that has been running for approximately 2 months. Here is what has happened:

- had 2 tank bred young clowns in the tank
- added one purple fire fish and some corals (GSP, torch, etc.)
- things in the tank were going along swimmingly
- this week went to LFS and my son was assured that he could put a Dwarf Angel in the tank also recommended a yellow tang. I didn't think it was right but in the end the person at the store seemed very confident the dwarf angel would be fine
- put the Flame Angel fish into the tank (didn't quarantine, I know, I know…we now have a quarantine tank running) (being new it's overwhelming enough to get a simple AIO tank let alone make a quarantine tank…
- within 12 hours the Dwarf Angel had white spots…one that went away, then another one showed up a few hours later, then gone completely, then a few more, etc, etc.
- 2 days later we removed the Dwarf Angel from the tank and took it back to the LFS - we were told it was not ick from the Dwarf Angel etc, etc.
- I don't really care at this point what caused the ick, all we cared about was he wouldn't destroy the fish and would treat it and now WHAT DO WE DO???

HERE IS WHAT ADVICE WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN FROM A VERY RELIABLE SOURCE (only doubting because some people have told us other things that scare us from jumping into what the reliable source tells us to do).
- quarantine the 2 clowns and purple fire fish (all 3 of these fish look PERFECTLY healthy right now and are acting completely normal) in hypo salinit for 8 weeks
- let tank sit fallow for 8 weeks to let all ick in the tank die
- slowly return the 3 fish to regular salinity and then return them to the main tank

HERE IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD BY OTHER SOMEWHAT RELIABLE SOURCES:
- purple fire fish will die within 2 days in hypo salinity
- there is ick in every tank even if we let it sit fallow and it needs to sit for at least 12 weeks and still can have ick
- don't do anything if the 3 fish aren't showing any signs of ick
- putting them in quarantine will stress them too much and cause them to become sick too
- don't worry about the ick at all, we may never see signs of it again now that the Dwarf Angel is gone
- flush all 3 fish and give up on raising fish at all
- don't medicate with copper etc because we are beginners

HERE ARE OUR CONSIDERATIONS:
- seriously considering to upgrade to a new bigger tank in the next 6 months and would like to use existing live rock, fish, and corals (won't keep sand)
- only want to add 1-2 more fish to the tank anyways
- are we CRAZY for even considering getting a LARGER TANK???!!!??? especially after all these trips to and from the fish stores this week???
- we really don't want to harm these fish and make this as easy on them as possible
- don't want to move ick into our next tank

Sorry for the long post but we are just lost. We trust our first person but all these other bits of advice have totally scared us, so we have really done nothing…

Do any of you have experience with this and considering what we are planning for future upgrade, what would you do?

Please, we were already shamed yesterday by someone over the Dwarf Angel, only constructive advice would be appreciated...

Reef Pilot
11-15-2013, 09:20 PM
Maybe this will help.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

I am also a big believer in the hypo routine and use it for my new fish with great results. Here is a good article on some of the benefits and why it works so well for new fish.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish

jorjef
11-15-2013, 09:43 PM
Get rid of the flame angle if you can.

Sit back and watch the tank.

No ick, no harm. Ick shows up treat with ick meds. If you loose fish so be it. Learn from the mistake and move forward.

To deploy into a full on assault to save the fish is more headache than it's worth. may sound harsh and non fishy/animal loving but what can I say.

If all fish die you can decide to fallow the tank then.

Scuba Diver Gal
11-15-2013, 10:03 PM
Flame Angel is already back at the fish store…waiting for our bigger tank :)

jorjef
11-15-2013, 10:17 PM
There you're done.

Duncans n' Dendros
11-15-2013, 10:30 PM
Im not an expert but I know hypo works. Should you worry about those fish? Doubt it. Should you get a bigger tank? Hell ya. Just run both, one with possibly having ick and the other a rockin reef tank because your learning from this and quarantining the fish and dipping your corals. Having fun is probably the most important. I learnt this after killing hundreds of dollar worth of coral and the odd fish dead. Dont stress, things happen in this hobby. It sucks that it sometimes happens too fast. Oh and never trust big box LFS employees. I had one tell me that a unicorn tang was a smaller tang. Its a small fish compared to a whale maybe but no small tang.

asylumdown
11-15-2013, 10:57 PM
Sit back and watch the tank.



+ a million. Ich is one of those things, if it's not an active, out of control infection that is killing your fish, the cure can be worse than the disease. If you want your tank to be 'ich free', yes, you'll have to go through some long involved and laborious process of quarantine, treatment, and fallowing, but to what end? Are you losing fish? do they look sick? Any of the 'known' cures for ich present real and tangible risks to the life of those fish, and in the case of copper and (for some species) hypo, greater than the risk of doing nothing.

If you ever want to keep one of the known 'ich magnet' species down the road in a bigger tank, it might be worth investing the time now to try and get it out while the tank is small and you hardly have any fish. When you upgrade would be a perfect time actually, but if you're talking about just this tank and just these fish, I don't think it would be worth the effort or the risk, unless of course your existing fish start to exhibit symptoms.

Also, the next time an LFS recommends any kind of tang for a 29 gallon tank, you should consider that as a cue to take every other word that comes out of their mouths with one very large grain of salt. A yellow tang's adult size in an aquarium can easily reach 8 inches if properly cared for, which would a) look ridiculous in a 20 inch wide tank and b) be incredibly cruel. LiveAquaria suggests nothing less than 100 gallons for a yellow tang, and I find their tank size requirements can often be pretty liberal.

Aquattro
11-16-2013, 12:00 AM
IMO, this can be your reliable "go to " answer for this. Especially the part about the Tang. Find a new fish store :)
I went through a lot of time, trouble, expense, fallowness, etc, to get a disease free tank. My Achilles Tang has some ih spots last month -lol Just can't win. I just live with it now.
That being said, I would QT any NEW fish coming in to avoid introducing aything worse than ich.

+ a million. Ich is one of those things, if it's not an active, out of control infection that is killing your fish, the cure can be worse than the disease. If you want your tank to be 'ich free', yes, you'll have to go through some long involved and laborious process of quarantine, treatment, and fallowing, but to what end? Are you losing fish? do they look sick? Any of the 'known' cures for ich present real and tangible risks to the life of those fish, and in the case of copper and (for some species) hypo, greater than the risk of doing nothing.

If you ever want to keep one of the known 'ich magnet' species down the road in a bigger tank, it might be worth investing the time now to try and get it out while the tank is small and you hardly have any fish. When you upgrade would be a perfect time actually, but if you're talking about just this tank and just these fish, I don't think it would be worth the effort or the risk, unless of course your existing fish start to exhibit symptoms.

Also, the next time an LFS recommends any kind of tang for a 29 gallon tank, you should consider that as a cue to take every other word that comes out of their mouths with one very large grain of salt. A yellow tang's adult size in an aquarium can easily reach 8 inches if properly cared for, which would a) look ridiculous in a 20 inch wide tank and b) be incredibly cruel. LiveAquaria suggests nothing less than 100 gallons for a yellow tang, and I find their tank size requirements can often be pretty liberal.

asylumdown
11-16-2013, 12:06 AM
That being said, I would QT any NEW fish coming in to avoid introducing aything worse than ich.

Amen to that. Even another strain of ich would be worthwhile keeping out.

hfp75
11-16-2013, 07:18 AM
I think the saying is...

Ich Happens.

I have been successful with lots of garlic and water changes. I have a 55g and I'll crush in 2-3 little cloves of fresh garlic 15 mins before I feed and I'll add a splash of garlic (Seachem) to the food too!!!! For water changes I'll turkey bast the rocks, let it settle and then vacume the sand.

be committed and the ich will go away.

IF you lose a fish dont get upset, it was planning to jump out if it got the chance anyways, and YES I beleive that there is Ich in all tanks.

Jschier
11-16-2013, 12:59 PM
Agreed, if the ich isn't affecting the fish (strong immune systems) then leave it as is. Something I just learned about ich, if left alone (zero additions to the tank) it will die off after 11 months. It is good to have 2 tanks as it gives you options when issues arise (I have 4). Best of luck and be sure to research every purchase before walking out of the store, good call on the tang.

Myka
11-16-2013, 05:02 PM
Asylumdown give you great advice, I agree. Keep in mind that Ich (note proper spelling lol) is kinda like a fish version of human influenza - most people/fish get it occasionally, and it's usually overcome by healthy individuals. I would take Asylumdown's advice and sit back to watch the tank for awhile.

Imo, attempting to make a tank completely Ich free is fairly easily accomplished by following a 12 week quarantine with hyposalinity and keeping the tank fallow for that time, plus same quarantine for incoming fish. I don't think it is something that is that imperative, and 12 weeks is a long time. Do I think it is worth it for a Biocube? No. Do I think it is worth it if you're setting up a big tank and planning a bunch of very expensive (and usually less common) fish? Yeah, that might be a good idea. Do many people do it? I can only think of a couple people I know that follow this VERY strictly.

Imo, there is no Angelfish nor any Tang that would be suitable for a Biocube - they all get too big and too aggressive, so it's tough luck that the Angelfish was returned. If the tank hums along without a hitch for 3-4 weeks, consider adding a small fish like a Shrimp Goby (with a cool pistol shrimp) or one of the small species of Blenny like a Tailspot, Pictus, or Tiger. Not one of the big Blennies like the Lawnmower or Bicolor.

I like hyposalinity in quarantine for new fish. I do not recommend it as a means of treatment since hypo doesn't work fast enough for a serious Ich infection, and I don't recommend treating mild Ich infections, so that leaves a moot point there. :D I also don't like copper treatment - for anything. Chloroquine phosphate is a much easier and safer method of treatment in place of copper, although more difficult to obtain (purchase ahead of time!).

Scuba Diver Gal
11-16-2013, 06:37 PM
Thanks everyone. By the way I knew how to spell ich but every time I spelt it correctly my mac would autocorrect to "icy"…so I left it at ick to avoid having to go back and change it.

My 2 clowns and purple fire fish are still fine. Eating and acting completely normal. We still have this quarantine tank so before we add anything else we will quarantine them. Should have done this in the first place.

I guess my biggest concern at this point is how to avoid bringing any ich into my new tank. Do I set up the new tank with new LR and then drop the salinity in the biocube and let those fish stay in there for 12 weeks and then bring them over? My son has an eye on a new tank (only 2 months in and he's already wanting to upgrade)…Assuming then that after the 8-12 weeks of low salinity that the live rock in the cube also would not have any ich still alive in it?

This is confusing to make this transition and avoid making any mistakes like we have already made :) Thanks again everyone!

bulletsworld
11-17-2013, 01:44 AM
What the hobby and stores will never tell you is that fish disease is a BIG part of keeping fish. It's also the most stressful for people and main reasons people leave the hobby. You can lose hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on the hobby, with just fish a lone. It can be dishearting at times, stressful and expensive.

After treating fish diseases for years in this hobby. Ich is the least of your worries. Most tanks if not all have had or still have ich in their tanks. Ich can be managed by good water quality, water temp, garlic/ginger treatments, light limits, and non stressful tankmates. Providing the fish are all healthy also. Keep in mind that even if the fish is healthy, the scale-less fish (boxfish, puffers, lionfish, etc, just to name a few) will be the first fish to show parasites & can't manage it on their own.

A good UV sterilizer is good to have also. If you want to be in the hobby long, you must always quarantine everything (fish, inverts, rock, any new additions). TIP: got a ich breakout, take away the light. Ich swims towards the light. Black out the tank.

Although its true, the treatment can be worse than the disease. So, if there is no sign of stress, lack of apetite, scratching, flashing to the fish, I would see if it can be managed by above mentioned stategies.

If you decide to treat there are other other options to treat fish besides copper & hyposalinity. But either those options or other require extensive monitoring, water treatments, and a lot of your time.

Btw... the tang police will always tell you that you shouldn't have a tang in anything less than a 100 gallon. However, you can have a very small tang (yellow or regal) in a small tank. I see dime sized regals that wouldn't be able to handle lots of current & easily get stuck to powerheads. Especially if you know you are upgrading later to a bigger tank. If not, you can always re-sell or trade to someone with a bigger tank.

Hope this helps.

Coralgurl
11-17-2013, 02:53 AM
You remind me of when I first started with sw, and first experience with ich. I panicked, set up a qt and moved 8 fish into that tank. Opted for copper treatment. I think by 3 weeks, I had 2 fish still alive. The stress on those fish, me and my family wasn't worth it anymore so those 2 fish went back in the dt. One lived another few weeks but had developed a lump under its fin. I only have 1 fish out of my originals I started with.

There are nasty diseases out there and for me I've been fortunate I haven't introduced anything serious to my tanks....except parasite worms I'm currently treating. My point is, you are in the beginning stages of this amazing hobby. Everyone here has an opinion on what's right/wrong and must or must not do. What I eventually learned is take what works for you, what you are willing to do and try and how much you want to invest both emotionally and financially.

Quit panicking, ich happens but as already noted, it can be managed with good husbandry. If you are planning a larger tank, learn on the one you have, then use it as a qt tank when ready.

Ask your questions here before heading to the stores. Everyone who starts wants their tanks to look like the ones who've been at it for years, but that's the key, it takes time and the first year is or at least for me, was the hardest.