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AJ_77
07-17-2002, 01:39 AM
For all you who've yet to share my pain, here is something apparently rare. Note the big difference in the "before" and "after" pictures.

The difference is six weeks. "After" is the present state, as of this week.

Enjoy. :(

Before:
http://members.shaw.ca/reefs/greentank_before.jpg

And After:
http://members.shaw.ca/reefs/greentank_after.jpg

Woo-hoo...

Alan

Delphinus
07-17-2002, 01:47 AM
Alan, I hope you don't mind, but I am going to move this into the main forum in the hopes that it might foster some ideas to help you out.

Six weeks. What an unimaginable nightmare. I don't think it should take this long to clear up.

Can you post the particulars as to size, age of system, what you have been doing so far to try to deal with this (carbon, water changes, diatom filters, anything like that).

AJ_77
07-17-2002, 01:55 AM
good grief, Tony, this is emabarrassing enough. Got advice from not a few people, and used carbon, floss, various filter cartridges (including micron), fluval with combinations of filter materials, regular water changes, no maxi-changes (advised against by one of the only people I could find who has had this - they said they just repopulate after a large change), cut back photo, cut back feeding, got a new skimmer, over-skimmed, tried various combinations of all the above.

Now I look at it and think how much it cost, and what I could get for it...

Bummer, dude. Normally I'm a happy guy, but I may have to change my avatar. ;)

Alan

StirCrazy
07-17-2002, 01:56 AM
you coupld probably bottle that and compete with Dt's :D but seriously that is bad.. to bad it wasn't a fresh water tank you could just fill 1/2 the tank with giant hygro and cover the top with duck weed and it would be clear in no time.. have you tested to see what is causing it? phosphates mabe?

Steve

Canadian Man
07-17-2002, 02:18 AM
Alan, Man Last I saw your tank it was about a tenth that bad. HOOOOLYYYY CRAP! Now thats pea soup.

Anyways, back on topic. I was reading a post tonight on RC and it mentioned a very similar situation. The guy tried everything, which we thought we did with your tank as well. One gentleman came up with a suggestion which his friend apparantly did or somethinglike that.

Anyway maybe adding a UV STERILIZER may solve your problem. It kinda makes sense as it would kill all the free floating algae in the tank.
Hey maybe buy one from bgals and use it for a week then return it ;)
Just a thought.
What does everyone else think about the UV sterilizer idea?

AJ_77
07-17-2002, 02:24 AM
actually Jon the pics don't do it justice, the green is so bright and vibrant that it is quite impressive. my brother especially likes it with just the actinics - I should've posted a shot of that.

as for the UV, I would prefer to rent one. ;)

Delphinus
07-17-2002, 02:29 AM
Does anyone in Calgary have a UV sterilizer Alan can borrow?

Bob has also suggested a diatomaceous earth filter. These filter out anything larger than 1 micron (if I remember correctly?)

The one profound thought I have is this. There really is no difference (to my eye anyways) in the pictures taken six weeks apart. This suggests to me that the phyto, or whatever it is, is somehow feeding off something. If they weren't, eventually there would be a crest and subsequent population die-off. Instead we see a more or less constant population.

So, what could feed phyto? I thought pretty much that phyto/green water is pretty much completely photosynthetic (I could be way off base here). So, my first questions, what lights are you using, how old are they, and does your tank have any direct sunlight exposure? (I know you said you've cut back on photoperiod, but I am fishing for ideas here.)

Is there a specific thing that you can remember, that before which, there was no green water, but afterwards, there was?

Have you increased, or have you considered increasing, the light over your caulerpa refugium? If you can perhaps get the caulerpa to grow fast, perhaps they can eventually outcompete the phyto for whatever nutrients that are feeding them?

DJ88
07-17-2002, 02:49 AM
Alan,

I have probably missed this somewhere in all the posts but what about your top off water? is it RO/DI? What may have happened is that you have slowly built up enough "stuff" from your water that it is feeding itself now.

Personally I'd suggest getting all livestock out in another tank and do a 100% water change with RO/DI.. wait a week or two. and do another. only with RO/DI.

I know how it has been said how clean the water is there but I am sorry. Tap water is not THAT clean. I don't want to sound condescending but you will get impurities that will vary from week to week in a city water system. It's a fact.

By the looks of it your tank has bult up the nutrients that it needed in cunjunction with your feeding of DT's to become a self sufficient DT grow out tank.

Your only recourse is get it all out.. basically "wash" the tank.

AJ_77
07-17-2002, 03:09 AM
Tony, the lights are 4 OVRNO (3 65k, 1 10k) on 2 of those e-ballasts, and 2 NO actinics. The 4 NO are new, the actinics are middle-aged or so. No sunlight at all hits the tank. The only thing that I can point to is my POS skimmer basically stopped doing anything for a few weeks before this started. Of course I got the new one pretty quickly (TF1000 Multi). It's been working hard since.

I've yet to implement new lighting over the refuge.

Darren, I top up daily with RO, but weekly changes are from the tap, and treated with the bottled goop from Big Al's for chlorine, etc. I have never used DT's.

Your solution seems very near to shutting the tank down. I have considered that.

Cheers, all.

EmilyB
07-17-2002, 03:25 AM
Is this bottled goop something that is a pure chemical remover, or one that contains that aloe vera or other fish slime crap.....

Aquattro
07-17-2002, 03:29 AM
Alan, is it possible that something is leaching from your rock or sand? Where did you get these from? Do you know others that obtained rock or sand from the same source? Also, have you tried varying your salinity and/or pH? A long shot, but you never know.

DJ88
07-17-2002, 03:42 AM
Alan,

I don't think you need to shut it down. But you may need to put some work into it. If you want I am sure we can help you figure out a plan to get it done.

Let us know. smile.gif between all of the brains on here I am sure we cna come up with something. :D

MitchM
07-17-2002, 10:15 AM
I've got a UV sitting around gathering dust. You're welcome to give it a try.
I would stop doing the water changes and adding that stuff from Big Als.
Tony's right. Let that stuff run it's course.

Mitch

[ 17 July 2002, 06:25: Message edited by: Carpentersreef ]

Jayson
07-17-2002, 11:35 AM
If your sure that it is phyto and your other water parameters are good add a couple of clams,gorgornians and feather dusters. These all feed on phyto and will clear your tank in no time.

Delphinus
07-17-2002, 11:50 AM
Well I do want to jump in and claim that it can't be the tap water, because I've used our tap water exclusively for 4 years, and I have yet to have a problem that was caused by the water supply (plenty other problems cause by plenty other things, including stupidity of the tank daddy, but let's not go there.)

But the bottom line is, I am convinced that the phyto is living off something. So we have to systematically eliminate the variables, and that does include the water. (For now. tongue.gif )

A 100% water change seems drastic and expensive, but it's not really akin to shutting the system down. The sand, the rocks, etc. will still have topical baterial cultures. It won't be a "back to day one" for the biological filter.

(If it helps you decide, I'm considering a 100% water change on one of my systems [after it was implicitly suggested by Rob/Biogeek last week]. I need to buy some time on this one tank with a nitrate problem while I decide what to do with it, take it down, or run it in series with another tank that CAN reduce nitrates..)

But the flip side of the coin is, if the source of the problem isn't eliminated, water changes arguably are probably only going to dilute the problem and prolong the agony. It would be treating the symptoms, not the cause.

This may sound dumb, but have you considered running your old Iwasaki over your refugium? I bet you could get your caulerpa to go nuclear with that thing. It would probably take a few weeks though, for it to start to outcompete the phyto, since the balance is seriously tipped in the phyto's direction right now.

I dunno. I know I would be seriously dejected were it me in your position. Keep slogging at it: we'll figure this out.

Delphinus
07-17-2002, 11:53 AM
Jayson has a good point. Are we sure this is phyto? What else could it be though? Hmmm. Have you looked at a water sample under a microscope?

AJ_77
07-17-2002, 12:17 PM
Very encouraging response, to say the least!

Em: the aloe goop I stopped using awhile back, now using the pure chlorine/chloramine remover. You're right, too goopy.

Brad: got the rock from a local hobbyist, says it was in his tank for a year as baserock. Sand bed is from another local guy, 5" of oolitic, about a year old also. The sand I saw live, the rock was dry, in tubs in the other fellow's garage. Caribbean, I think he called it - porous but heavy.

Darren: I don't want to shut it down necessarily, but I have 1.5 jobs, 3 boys, wife, dog, house, etc... So yes, I'll gladly accept any and all advice offered, and work towards a solution, within reason. Thanks again, BTW.

Mitch: very kind offer, might be just the ticket. Your rental rates appeal to me. ;)

Jayson: impeccable retail advice, I'll put in an order today. ;) J/K, sounds like it might be shopping time (after one more receivable). I might stay away from clams for now, though. :eek:

Tony: sage advice as always. I've said it before, I'll succeed in this hobby because of you all. (I have not seen a sample under a microscope.) You're right, the competition is stiff now, the caulerpa and halimeda are suffering. The SAKI! over the 'fuge - what an inspired idea. Actually, I have that last ballast and 2x24" tubes handy, an .03 and 10k I think. Should get off my @ss and make up a "fixture", too hot still for the MH inside the cabinet?

If it's NOT phyto or something similar, then it may as well be from another planet. BTW, the guys from the other board said that after a couple of months it went as quickly as it came. So there is hope, but man O man...

Cheers and many thanks,

Alan

[ 17 July 2002, 08:20: Message edited by: AJ_77 ]

Aquattro
07-17-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by AJ_77:

Brad: ... The sand I saw live, the rock was dry, in tubs in the other fellow's garage. Caribbean, I think he called it - porous but heavy.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Alan, is it possible to remove the rock to a separate container? Dry rock from a tub somewhere sounds suspicious. Maybe some lawn fertilizer fell on the rocks in his garage!! If you can put the rock in a separate tub with a heater, etc, it might remove a possible food source for your soup. Far fetched, yes....but it would eliminate a big possibility.
If you saw the sand working, it's most likely fine.

Troy F
07-17-2002, 12:41 PM
I don't know if I agree with Jayson. Adding livestock at this stage wouldn't be responsible. From the pictures it doesn't look like there is much light penetrating the water so a clam and gorgonian are ruled out right away. Secondly, it may not be a phyto that the animals will eat or it may not even by a phyto at all.

Good luck.

christyf5
07-17-2002, 01:29 PM
Holey smokes! Can I send you some oysters?? They would have that cleaned up in a matter of hours and then you could have a tasty dinner. Seriously, go to the seafood store and buy some live oysters they will clean the water for you. Probably about 10 would do it (or whatever you want to eat for dinner :D ). At least it would be a temporary solution while you figure out what the problem is.

Christy smile.gif

BTW I have a 15W UV sterilizer that you could try if you'll pay for the shipping. I don't know how big your tank is tho, maybe you'd need something stronger?

[ 17 July 2002, 09:32: Message edited by: christyf5 ]

ron101
07-17-2002, 01:32 PM
Does anyone in your house use any amounts of ammonia (or other) based cleaners in the vicinity of your tank?

I have heard of various cleaning chemicals being the cause for algae-type outbreaks.

Doug
07-17-2002, 01:44 PM
Hmmmmmmmm, :eek: Thats some pic AJ. Its pretty though smile.gif

I am at a loss. Never in 25 years have I seen it that bad myself. I have seen pics of fresh water tanks like that.

For sure, something is packed with and leaching nutrients into the water. If its not your make-up water, salt brand, excessive foods, overdosing of additives, or some other foreign substance getting into the water, then I would start looking at whats leaching it. That leads to the rock. Could have been loaded with phosphates when shut down from the previous owner.

Other than that, I am at a loss.

AJ_77
07-17-2002, 02:11 PM
Brad: If I take out all the rock (you can't see it ;) but there's lots) I'll be removing a large part of my biofilter capacity, will I not? Plus all the brittlestars, bugs etc would be lost, and I don't really have a place to put it all. Again, that's pretty close to tearing the tank down, and I'm worried that if I do something resembling tearing it down that I'll just carry on and finish the job. Sounds strange, but I'm a bit discouraged at this point. (Did I say a BIT??)

Christy: mmm... oysterrrrsss... Thanks for making me hungry! ;) And thanks for your very kind offer, I think we have a UV here in Calgary available from Mitch.

Ron: No harsh cleaners are allowed near the tank. Sometimes I put windex onto a cloth and do a wipe across the front. Does that count?

Doug: thanks, good thinking. At this point I might go with the refugium lighting upgrade, to try to give the upper hand back to the caulerpa. The liverock issue is a little overwhelming right now. Too much going on - had my wife in the hospital yesterday, and one of my side clients cancelled on 2 websites today. Arrrrgh!

Thanks again, everyone. I'll follow up on some of these great ideas and see if we can get on top of this. I rally do wish that the pictures came out better - the living green is amazing in its own stupid way...

:rolleyes:

Jayson
07-17-2002, 02:49 PM
Troy,

The point that I was trying to make is that he has to establish if it is phyto in the first place.Take a sample down to local university if you do not a have microscope. If he establishes that it is phyto then he can look into something that will eat it. If he places a clam near the surface he will hve enough light for a lower light calm(squamosa or gold max) The gorgornians that eat phyto are from deeper waters and do not need much light to thrive. I also said in my post that he would have to make sure that all water parameters are good. when I feed my clam system the water turns about 1/4 as green and it only takes them about 4 hours to turn it back to crystal clear.

DJ88
07-17-2002, 03:36 PM
IMO putting an animal in there to eat up the green stuff isn't the way to do it. That is treating the symptoms not the cause. Until the cause is found that has introduced all the nutrients into Alans system, he will continue to have problems down the road. Whether it was due to water, rock or whatever. The nutrients are in there. Until the source is removed, 'band-aid' approaches are going to be moot.

As an aside I highly doubt a LFS will 'loan' a gorg or clam to try the theory out.

Canadian Man
07-17-2002, 03:48 PM
Well Alan,
I believe the sollutuion may be to get the UV sterilizer from Mitch to borrow for a while.
Make sure you set it up proper and get the right(slow) amount of flow through the thing and see what happens.

Troy F
07-17-2002, 05:00 PM
Hi Jayson, I hear what your saying but I don't agree, specifically with the gorgonian and especially with a non-photosynthetic type. There's no way that it would clean up the water considering how they capture food and when the water is restored to more exceptable "looks" the animal would then be difficult if not impossible to maintain. JMO and no offense meant.

Canadian Man
07-17-2002, 05:12 PM
About the chlorine remover,
Alan, Chloride dissaptes from water very fast.
no need to use remover.
I dont use it on my FW tanks and never have.
Consider it a scam if a store in calgary sells you chlorine remover to use in our water or just lack of knowledge.

Sorry this is a little off topic but just had to throw that in.
cheers.

AJ_77
07-17-2002, 05:32 PM
I was just about to respond to Tony's most excellent post, and then POOF!, it's gone.

Well, YOU know what you wrote, so thanks. You have demonstrated an insight into my situation that is most welcome and appreciated.

I apologize to those who've offered more "radical" cures for this problem, but I will be doing what I can here. Thanks again! (Keep in mind the tank is <6 mos. old and I have limited confidence in my reef-keeping abilities. This helps in precluding any heroic measures.)

[ 17 July 2002, 13:35: Message edited by: AJ_77 ]

Bob I
07-17-2002, 05:37 PM
Please would anyone who blames our tap water please stop. I use tap water exclusively, and have for more years than I want to remember. I have not in recent memory seen anything like it. If only someone had a Vortex Diatomaceous Earth filter sitting around. I KNOW it would clean it up in an hour or so. It would not be a cure, but would at least temporarily clean it up until the cause was found. Maybe Mikey at Pisces has one that they use, and perhaps rent it to you. I too am grasping at straws.

DJ88
07-17-2002, 06:13 PM
Please would anyone who blames our tap water please stop. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bob,

To me not using a RODI in a reef tank is only looking for incidents like this to happen. Do you know exactly how clean the DFW system is from the resevoir/purification/chlorination plant to Alan's house? Has the system been inspected to ensure nothing has gotten in that could have introduced a possible contaminant into the water? Have there been no breaks in the line? Is all the piping used of a material that will not leech small amounts of minerals and contaminants? Can you say that with 100% certainty?

The reason I bought a RO/DI for my tank is to make sure that no matter what I was putting clean water in my tank. All too often mistakes are made after all it is peole running machines. all it takes is one slip and something gets into a line before it is noticed, it ends up in your tank and sits there. If it were phosphates in small enough quantities you wouldn't even notice it. But if the amounts were to build up in a tank over time end be held in the sand bed or LR, with enough in there they will start a bloom such as this. Once it has started and reaches saturation in the water column it will become self sustaining. Some dies off, breaks down feeds a whole new bloom.

Until the cause is found and removed, treating the symptoms is a moot point.

Saying the water in Calgary is made for reef tanks and isn't the problem doesn't work IMO. Until it has been proven that the entire water system is so clean that it is of a higher quality than what comes out of a RO/DI, I will cite that as a major source for contaminants in a tank. That is the first place I will look in any tank experiencing an algae outbreak on the scale Alan is. Next would be the LR and sand bed. All three possibly have the phosphates bound up in them which is feeding this.

Sorry Alan. Had to say it. I hope this gets cleared up soon. I really do.

AJ_77
07-17-2002, 06:39 PM
Hey Darren, no need to apologize for adding considerable and well-intentioned input. I am rarely offended by anyone trying to help me out. I claim expetise on none of this, it's the combined knowledge and experience base here that makes Canreef so amazing. (Insert applause Here.)

As for the water issue, one of the things that helped me decide to get back into SW was Calgary water's reputed suitability. Many people keep wonderful tanks with it - just not me (yet).

I aspire to be a "lumper" like Bob - keeping a beautiful tank without devoting my life to its care. I suppose this might go against your new sig line, and maybe I need to rethink this whole venture.

Alan

Delphinus
07-17-2002, 07:18 PM
As the saying goes, in an investigation, once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever possibility remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Deduction: something is feeding the green water, such that it doesn't die back (otherwise it would).

Hypothesis: it must be something in the water, in the rocks, in the sand, in the additives, or in the food. (What else can there be?) The glass itself? The plumbing? The hardware?

Personally, I do doubt that it's the water itself. But this can't be said with 100% certainty. It IS a suspect until we get to the bottom of this.

I'm also quite undecided what to suggest myself as far as the 100% water changes go (hence the suggestion, delete the message, suggest it again, delete it again, process). I guess I WOULD be tempted to try it, but I am worried that it may shock the tank inhabitants, espescially if a series of attempts is needed. So maybe for starters, it is the UV and the refugium ideas, give it a week or so. If the water changes are absolutely mandatory then a temporary housing of larger inhabitants may be in order. A 100% water change on a 90gallon tank has got to be the absolute most invasive thing. Where exactly does one mix and age 90 gallons of water? Usually this is done in the tank itself well before adding anything live. Can't take out 90g and mix new saltwater in situ, fresh saltwater is nasty caustic. So it would have to be, probably, something like three rubbermaid garbage containers. Whew, isn't Alan's wife going to love me for suggesting we put 3 of those in her living room for a couple of days! smile.gif

We definitely need a quantitative measurement of something though. We need to establish what the NO3 and PO4 values are. If we can identify one of these are being out of whack, then we can try to attack that one parameter and once it's under control see what happens to the colour of the water. Until we know numbers, it really is just guesswork (we seem to be assuming phosphates are whacked, let's at least start by proving that theory correct.) Alan I can't come over tonight but maybe I can come over tomorrow or Friday sometime (daytime Friday preferred) and bring some of my testkits, let's see what we can't find out about this.

[ 17 July 2002, 15:30: Message edited by: delphinus ]

Bob I
07-17-2002, 07:20 PM
I would never discourage anyone who wants to use RO/DI water from doing so, that is entirely up to them, but I do consider the advice that Alan replace all his water with it to be not necessarily well thought out. Some of the more successful reef tanks in Calgary use tap water. I for one will continue to do so. I do believe that Alan's problems do not lie in the water, but that is my gut feeling only. I think his rock or sandbed may be at fault, and the addition of chemical goop to get rid of chlorine is, in my opinion, also suspect. I hope Alan looks at all the advice so freely given, and makes the correct choice.

DJ88
07-17-2002, 07:57 PM
Tony,

The problem with testing for PO4 is most will be bound up in the sand bed now. Once you remove some (with water changes, phosphate sponge) more will be released. If PO4 is a part of the problem. Which I am presuming it is. You can test for it but until it is removed from all possible areas where it can be suspended in you will still have some coming back.

Until you find the source and remove it this won't be a quick fix.

IMO IME

I do consider the advice that Alan replace all his water with it to be not necessarily well thought out <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">?????

Do you not agree that Alan's water is FULL of some form of algae? A good start is a set of water changes. In conjunction with work being done with the rock and sand bed. Other tanks using tap water in Calgary has no bearing in Alan's case. His tank has grown a large algae bloom. It is no longer like other tanks. By doing several large changes with RODI you are removing the water as a possible source for food. Why not try it? Right now I see no actual proof that it is not a part of this problem other than people saying they use tap water. How far does word of mouth get you in court? If the water is clean, great. Why not put it to rest by crossing it out completely? It is a much easier solution than ripping the whole system down and scrubbing all the rocks and sand... Either it works or it doesn't.. By backhandeldy dismissing this you are possibly writing off an easy fix. I don't understand that reasoning... It's like saying that Calgarians can't get a flu because the air is better. An extreme example but to me that is how it is appearing.

Two or three large water changes done over a period of couple of weeks will quite possibly assist greatly in removing the food source. Until it is tried, don't write it off. Suggestions have been asked for, suggestions have been given. Suggestions probably based upon expereinces with various forms of algae outbreaks. Saying that it isn't the water without trying it is not very good logic to me...

As it stands now the water in Alan's tank is a large breeding ground. If small partial water changes are done all that will result is a fresh source of nutrition for the algae and a whole new bloom starts. By doing several large changes you can remove as much of the algae or whatever it is and hopefully remove part of the source that is feeding it.

Filters, sponges and such are a trying to fix the symptoms, even a diatom filter is NOT going to remove the food source, especially if it is PO4. To fix this you need to fix the cause. That is possibly one or all of these three things. (I am betting all three are now part of it since this has been going on for so long)

Water.

Sand.

Rock.

Right now all three are bound up with phosphates or some other source of nutrition for that algae. If you only try to fix one or part of one you are leaving the others to feed it all once again. It's like trying to fight a house fire by only spraying water into the basement or on the lawn. To do it effectively you need to remove what it needs to thrive, food. If you don't remove it all or at least a huge part of it there will be a chace of it coming back. To remove it you are goign to be looking at water, rock and sand

IMO IME.

take that advice as you want Alan. If I was closer I'd willingly help out by hosting your critters.

I'll shut up now. As it seems Calgary's water is a touchy issue.

Doug
07-17-2002, 08:09 PM
Darren, although I am not sure about adding livestock, the idea may help. I disagree about the nutrients, as they are there because they are not being removed. If clams or whatever consume them, then there not a problem anymore.

I do agree, we need to find the root of the problem though. I dont know if phosphate loaded rock could produce that much algae. What we need to do, is someone with a honkin skimmer, to see if it clears it up.

If massive water changes are done and no other parameters changed, and the problem remains, then its either the rock, sand or make-up water.

Bob I
07-17-2002, 08:14 PM
I would never ask that anyone shut up. Everyone is free to voice opinions. I am just sorry that Alan is faced with some very expensive choices. 90 gallons of RO/DI water has to be purchased several times, along with all the salt. Sounds discouraging to me. IMVHO, we might as well go out and purchase a Vortex and a bunch of earth, and just keep cleaning until the source is gone. Also expensive, but what the hey, hey? Please, Alan I am not trying to discourage you.

Canadian Man
07-17-2002, 08:15 PM
Alan, as Tony offered his help to you, i will as well. I am off on thursday but availiable in morning or evening if you decide to anything you need help with.

1.If you want to do water changes i am willing to supply you with the RO/DI water to do so. we could just fill up a couple buckets at a time and bring them over to your place.

2.If you want help hooking up the UV sterilizer and dont know how i can offer my assistance as well

3. If you need a place to house your critter than your fish would do well in my refugium and be easy to catch and corals in my tank.

Keep strong and confident throught this.
cheers

Troy F
07-17-2002, 08:26 PM
How is the sandbed fauna doing in the tank? Stands to reason that if it is truly a consumable phytoplankton, there should be an explosion of life in the tank?

Doug, Jayson, I'm not saying that a clam wouldn't consume whatever is in there, just that it could be an expensive experiment for both participants. I stand by the gorgonian comments, there's no way one or two or even more would clear that tank up.

Delphinus
07-17-2002, 08:36 PM
DJ88 you are correct, at this point, PO4 (let's call it parameter 'X') is everywhere. Doesn't matter -- for sanity check, I still want to test for it. Because until we've confirmed something is abalanced, we're only working on educated guesses. (We can be pretty sure that something is amiss, but let's confirm that as a first step.) Dealing with a specific finding, is a different issue, and that will be ultimately up to Alan how to deal with that.

Removing an unbalanced parameter is a nightmare. I know. I have a tank with >80ppm nitrate. It's been up there for about 3, 4 months now. My "little killer SPS tank" I had 6 months ago is just that "a killer OF SPS tank." :( I'm amazed, but my carpet seems to dig it. Anyways. Once the level is up there, it doesn't go away quickly, that's for darn sure. Practical sized water changes very quickly run into a point of diminishing returns. Everytime I make a little headway it shoots right back up. I am about to throw in the towel on this tank. Luckily I have two other reefs, so it's not like I'm quitting, I'm just giving up on one tank's bad design.

If 100% water changes are called for, then this is going to be a team effort. No way can a single person perform a 90g water change by himself. What a nightmare scenario. If that's what we have to do though, that is what we will do. Let us completely exhaust all other possibilities first though.

[ 17 July 2002, 16:43: Message edited by: delphinus ]

Bob I
07-17-2002, 08:58 PM
I am only a little way from Alan, and will offer my help too. I am off at noon tomorrow and Friday, but gone by Friday evening. If housing of critters is needed, I can house fishes in my refugium, and nano. Both are to small for yellow Tangs though, as he would soon go nuts.
Actually if the need arises I could turn my 33 back into salt for awhile, and put the critters in there. Then Alan could take care of them while I am on three weeks vacation. :D if someone could babysit my eight FW fish.
Bob

[ 17 July 2002, 17:41: Message edited by: Bob Ipema ]

SuperFudge
07-17-2002, 09:02 PM
.

[ 17 July 2002, 17:09: Message edited by: Superfudge ]

EmilyB
07-17-2002, 09:11 PM
I can't believe people would use tap water, but to each his own. On the ocassions I have had to add even topoff tap water, I get instant algae.

Not to mention, I can't even drink our tap water lately, it tastes so bad.

Anyway, Alan, Mitch dropped off his UV here for you if you decide you want it.

Bob I
07-17-2002, 09:36 PM
That of course could start a flame of its own Deb, so we had better not get into that. But with the City's filtration problem even our highly vaunted water could be marginal at this time.
:D tongue.gif

[ 17 July 2002, 17:39: Message edited by: Bob Ipema ]

MitchM
07-17-2002, 10:10 PM
Alan, you can have however much RO/DI water you would like from my unit that it takes to help solve this problem.

Mitch smile.gif

(I love to see all the passion from the reefkeepers here!)

StirCrazy
07-17-2002, 11:26 PM
hmm I notice that Calgary has two different treatment plants.. Alan are you on the same plant as Bob and the others?

from the water quality report I see that one plant is higher in calcium as the other.

Bearspaw Treatment Plant Water Hardness (CaCO3) for 2000
mg/L Average 154.5


Glenmore Treatment Plant Water Hardness (CaCO3) for 2000
mg/L Average 212.5

here is the water quality results for Calgary.. the floride is a concern, I wasn't aware alberta was still adding it to the water.. oh well I still don't have cavities :D

http://www.gov.calgary.ab.ca/cww/water_quality/report/pages/table.html

sence the water report only shows a very few tests that have been done I would suspect that other non tested contamanants "ie. Phosphates, sulfates, sulfites, ect.." could be present. especialy when everything I read about back home is saying how this year is one of the worst years for water ever.

Steve

EmilyB
07-18-2002, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Carpentersreef:
Alan, you can have however much RO/DI water you would like from my unit that it takes to help solve this problem.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ditto, Alan. I change 40g every two weeks in the 155g so I have lots of that (I've probably run more onto the laundry room floor than you need anyway.... :D ) Also you are welcome to use the tubs, powerheads, python, etc.

Aquattro
07-18-2002, 12:55 AM
Alan, when I suggested removing the rock way back on page one, I meant move to large rubbermaid containers with water and heaters and stuff. This would keep everything alive in/on your rock. That would allow you to confirm or eliminate the rock as the source of the problem.

Canadian Man
07-18-2002, 02:19 AM
Alan here's the link to the RC post I was talking about. Most of the responses say UV cleared up the problem very fast.

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99878

Delphinus
07-18-2002, 02:24 AM
the floride is a concern, I wasn't aware alberta was still adding it to the water.. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Calgary voted that in only about 10 years ago. Wait, maybe a little more now. It was 1989, or 1990. It was a very small margin, but, apparently, this is what people want.

Not a topic to really make me very happy, though. I can add fluoride to my water myself if I choose. I can't remove it that easily. Oh no wait, I can, I have an RO unit now ... :D Never mind..

BUT ... why does this thread have to degenerate into a tap vs RO debate? It's neither here nor there. I would prefer to see the thread closed, than to sift through another page of heated tempers over something trivial and irrelevant to the original intent of me moving this thread into the main forum. Yes, Alan should switch to RO for now. I think he gets the point... I sure do.

EmilyB
07-18-2002, 02:37 AM
No, RO/DI :D

But I am wondering why you think the tap water discussion is trivial and irrelevant to the original post ?

Tony ?

[ 17 July 2002, 22:41: Message edited by: EmilyB ]

StirCrazy
07-18-2002, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by delphinus:
[QUOTE]
BUT ... why does this thread have to degenerate into a tap vs RO debate? It's neither here nor there. I would prefer to see the thread closed, than to sift through another page of heated tempers over something trivial and irrelevant to the original intent of me moving this thread into the main forum. Yes, Alan should switch to RO for now. I think he gets the point... I sure do.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't thinkit has to, the reason I posted this info is that some of the the calgarians (not all) are saying there is no way it can be a water problem.. I am just showing that yes it can.. and IMHO most likely is.. I don't want a argument about water quality and I am not trying to start one.. just show my point that I posted at the begining that I feel it is phosphates, sulphates or some other algae fueling chem in the water supply. I lived in Alta for 23 years befor moving out here and had fish tanks for 15 of them.. I know how much the water quality changes with the seasons there.. don't get me wrong either.. if I could be beck there I would be tomorrow.. (so I am not knocking Alta in anyway) but I am comittied outhere for 7 more years...

Steve

[ 18 July 2002, 06:21: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]

EmilyB
07-18-2002, 02:57 AM
I would prefer to see the thread closed, than to sift through another page of heated tempers <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is hot out, but I'm not angry ???? Just confused. :confused:

AJ_77
07-18-2002, 03:00 AM
Wow, this thread DOES grow fast!

Brad, I see your point. Many temporary tubs for the rock would do it.

Mitch and Deb, thanks and yes I'll be happy try the UV filter. I'll wait a bit more before coming over for water. We have an RO unit under the kitchen sink here, 3-stage I think.

Steve, good water info, I think we're on the Bearspaw plant as I can almost hit it with an arrow from my house. My calcium was at 440 when Jon tested awhile back. Yes, the water has been awful this spring, hence the local water restrictions.

Jon, great link man! I'll give it a try.

Tony, your patience is admirable. Sorry I ever gave you grief about moving this thread. smile.gif Your input is highly valued.

Who asked about booming pod populations? Brad? - because I got that! There are more and bigger shrimp/bugs/pods, and critters I have not seen before.

Thanks very much everybody, I thought I saw the outline of some LR today! ;)

Alan

[ 17 July 2002, 23:09: Message edited by: AJ_77 ]

StirCrazy
07-18-2002, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by AJ_77:

Thanks very much everybody, I thought I saw the outline of some LR today! ;)

Alan<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know that excitment but my problem was white water not green ;)

Steve

Aquattro
07-18-2002, 03:09 AM
Hopefully this will be the last water comment, but thought I should mention it. While living in Kelowna during the year of the poison water, it was discovered that a broken pipe had allowed agricultural runoff into the water system So even if Calgary (or anywhere) water is perfect, that could change by the time it is delivered to your pipes. Not likely, but possible.

titus
07-18-2002, 04:23 AM
Hello,

1) This thread sure does grow fast.
2) The no visual change indicated by Tony doesn't mean there's no die off IMO. It looks like to me a system that has reached equilibrium. For eg, it's at a point where the green stuff die off, releases its nutrients, and the rest feeds on those nutrients and re-grows.
3) My personal take in this problem will be to do a few 100% water changes with RO/DI water, get the rocks out and basically scrub them down (afterall you said they were sitting in the garage and therefore not live rock), implement a UV filter, top off with only RO/DI water, turn off all lights, and wrap the whole tank with dark material. I'll also stop using the chemicals bought from the retail store for removing chlorine, whatever.

Titus

[ 17 July 2002, 12:26: Message edited by: Titus ]

Jayson
07-18-2002, 11:23 AM
IS it Phytoplankton?

stephane
07-18-2002, 09:52 PM
I am with doug here I have never seen this before
and Its hard to give any advice other than try to find where the nutriment came,dont feed,keep you hand off,do water change,diatom filter if you have, if you dont have put a magnum diatom filter
in the input bulkhead of you sump and clean it everyday,polyfilter,IMO UV is good only in conjonction whith a diatom filter because you have to get the algea out after you kill it other than that you will have a amonia peak and a big unbalance. wich you good luck

Bob I
07-19-2002, 04:46 AM
As to the water discussion, I think it is very informative. Even if it becomes more of an argument, it is still valid. Remember everyone has an opinion, which in some people's eyes is dead wrong. tongue.gif I sit here and look at my chrystal clear tank in which everything does extremely well (Okay Yellow Polyps do not survive, the last one has disappeared), but all else thrives. If I can only keep soft corals, I am more than happy, as there are more of them than my system has room for anyway.

As to what the stuff is may be academic. We should remember that our world is full of millions of types of algae, each one looking for the opportunity to pop up somewhere. One species has probably found a temporary haven in Alan's tank. There is a very good chance it will disappear as spontaneously as it popped up. It may also disappear if filtered out, or killed, and may never show up again.

My two cents for what it is worth anyway. I say Alan hang in there you will probably, if not definitely, be fine in the end. :D

[ 18 July 2002, 16:45: Message edited by: Bob Ipema ]

sea gnome
07-20-2002, 05:24 AM
Hi Allen, sorry to see your tank is so...umm...green. I too am newish to the hobby and have battled algae, not quite like yours though. In the end I did 100% h2o change. I had all my stuff in a BIG tupperware tote for 6 wks while I redid the tank. Everything survived but a shrimp which died the day before moving to the 90g tank again. I was not even aware of the BB when I started this endeaver. When I found out about it Bruce and Brad over on the island where a great source of info. So if you are going that route, it can be done and isn't that bad except that the tub took up a lot of room. By the way I went to ro water and I feel better using it but I can't say that it has made a huge difference.. We are on well water and and have never had it tested so I don't know how it compares to city except that ours is delious!!!!
GOOD LUCK WITH IT AND STAY POSITIVE. Rachel

GinKu
09-09-2002, 05:15 AM
Holy Smokes alan that is crazy
hehe lets hope my tank won't turn out to be like this

AJ_77
09-09-2002, 01:29 PM
Don't be crazy Tony - check out this thread:
Green Tank Pics - Update (http://www.canreef.com/ubb6/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000964)

If you're smart, you'll avoid the blunders I made at that time.

Cheers,

AJ :D