WHAT IS A CORPORATION?

[RuGlu6]

a quote from Michael Tellinger
WHAT IS A CORPORATION?

It is an idea that was written down on paper and a bunch of people run around to enact the idea and the rules set out on that piece of paper. Corporations do not breath, they do not bleed, they do not have emotions and cannot show infinite love – only people can do that.

When the 14th Amendment was passed in the USA during 1868, an era of tyranny was unleashed. This tyranny was subtle, relentless and deadly. It appeared in the form of The Corporation. Ironically, the 14th Amendment itself was not intended to cause this tyranny. It was during a connected case shortly after it was signed, that a court reporter incorrectly recorded that a decision had been made regarding the legal status of a Corporation. From that day forth, despite the fact that no such decision had actually been made, a corporation was given the same rights as you and me. This detonated the nightmare that we are stuck with today.

As of 1868, a Corporation was to be treated exactly like a real human being. In fact, the legal term for it is an “artificial person”. But because he? she? it? has no morals, it cannot die and has no cells or living tissue, a Corporation will continue to expand forever. Human beings, referred to as “consumers” continually feed this monster, nurture it and watch as it sucks the life out of everything it comes into contact with. It devours resources with no accountability and serves one purpose and one purpose only:to maximize financial profit.

And yet our laws uphold the rights of corporations – pieces of paper – more than they uphold the rights of living breathing human beings. Corporations are considered “persons” just like we are. The only difference is that we almost always sign contracts with them. They seldom, if ever, sign contracts with us. This places us in the position of having to do the delivering, the working, the paying and repeatedly subjugating our rights in their favour.

The tragedy is that most of these laws are written and enacted by other human beings who have no idea what they are doing. Slaves being enslaved because that is all they know. The words of a wise prophet come to mind at this moment: “Forgive them for they know not what they do.”

If ever there was a great injustice perpetrated against all of humanity, this is it. And we have no idea that this unlawful activity has been going on for thousands of years.

The brutally inhumane practice of slavery, and the slave trade, especially in the past 500 years, is a sobering reminder of how corporations held infinitely more sway with the law than the human beings who were traded as property or chattel by those slave-trading corporations.

Slave traders were often noblemen of high standing in their societies. Many of them became incredibly wealthy and politically powerful because of their trading in human misery. This is unthinkable to most of us today. And yet, that is exactly what each one of us has become. An ignorant slave to the corporation or so-called country that we are born into – without realizing it.

The saddest part of this deception is that many of us slaves are so brainwashed by our slave masters and their system that we are prepared to defend the system and even die for it. So let me remind you of these two historic statements:

“None are more enslaved than those who believe they are free”. Goethe

Morpheus: “The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.” Matrix – The movie

[Aquattro]

So, you don't like corporations then??

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Matrix fanboy???

[toytech]

Want of material goods only brings unhappiness
`Dalai Lama

[sphelps]

:der:

[lastlight]

So, you don't like corporations then??

And you don't like sugar. Let him have his fun :)

[reefermadness]

"Corporations are people my friend" - Mitt Romney 2012

The US supreme court has ruled it.....

[kien]

Does anyone know of a corporation that can help me with my iMessages? They appear to be acting wonky lately, and the US is currently SHUT DOWN because their Congress is trying to repeal AppleCare.. I don't know what to do, help!

[Rice Reef]

Corporations are owned by people and operated and managed by people. If you have a concern you should look at the people running them and the company directors and blame them.

Too much reef glue sniffing...

[mark]

a cut and paste from a conspiracy theorist?

[RuGlu6]

copy paste this:

The saddest part of this is that many of us slaves are so brainwashed by our slave masters and their system that we are prepared to defend the system and even die for it.

“None are more enslaved than those who believe they are free”. Goethe

[Rice Reef]

Ok Neo, which pill did you take this morning, red or blue...?

[StirCrazy]

Ok Neo, which pill did you take this morning, red or blue...?

he forgot to take his meds I think :mrgreen:

[Reef Pilot]

RuGlu6, just curious, what do you do for a living?

[Reef_Geek]

corporations and "the man" are keeping us down... so I threw it on the ground!

http://youtu.be/gAYL5H46QnQ

[MitchM]

My guess is RU is an employee of a corporation.
They really need to teach more business basics in school.
The assumptions some of my past employees have made about businesses are sad.
We live in a capitalist society. Deal with it.


:smile:

[RuGlu6]

RuGlu6, just curious, what do you do for a living?

You hit the nail right on the head, friend !
Humans are the only creatures that have to pay for living on this planet.
That is why most of us are just slaves.:mrgreen:

[jorjef]

That is why most of us are just slaves.:mrgreen:

Why be a slave? Strip done to nothing, head out the front door and make your way to the woods to live with the animals. Thats gotta be better option.

[Reef Pilot]

You hit the nail right on the head, friend !
Humans are the only creatures that have to pay for living on this planet.
That is why most of us are just slaves.:mrgreen:
You didn't answer my question, which is what do YOU do for a living? Just trying to understand you better, and where you are coming from...

Not sure what your definition of slaves is. But might possibly mean that humans, and all life are slaves to something. Even bacteria are dependent on something to live and reproduce, or they die...

Difference with humans is that they learned that working together can be more productive and safe, and make for a better life.

[kien]

That's actually a very good point about having to pay to live on earth. I suppose that's the price for becoming civilized. I'm not very good with a bow or a club so I'll stick with my slave masters.

Also, corporations run the internet that we are all using to spread the word about our corporate oppressors.

[Reef_Geek]

You hit the nail right on the head, friend !
Humans are the only creatures that have to pay for living on this planet.
That is why most of us are just slaves.:mrgreen:

I'm thinking it's about time that my dog and fish start to pull their weight around this joint... freaking freeloaders...

[SanguinesDream]

:mrgreen:I'm thinking it's about time that my dog and fish start to pull their weight around this joint... freaking freeloaders...

:lol:

Snerk.

[windcoast reefs]

:pop2:

[mrhasan]

You hit the nail right on the head, friend !
Humans are the only creatures that have to pay for living on this planet.
That is why most of us are just slaves.:mrgreen:

I completely disagree to this. Every living thing in this world "pay" to live. Different beings pay differently. For us, its money. For fishes, one pay with his/her life to save the rest. For corals, they pay by not been able to move. Starfishes pay by leaving parts of their bodies. For tigers, they pay by waiting for the next meal.

In the end, EVERYTHING pays. We happen to pay with pieces of papers (and being from a 3rd world country, that doesn't always work too, sometimes lives are also used as a form of payment).

And to the term "slave" that you used, you can't choose yourself to be a "slave". And there's always the option of being free (or to layman's term, live what you love and go to the wild where you don't have to...umm...PAY).

[reefermadness]

I'm feeling this dude... ;) I got your back haha.

There is a good documentary called "The Corporation". In the film they make the case that If a corporation was a human being, that human being would be the dictionary definition of a psychopath. The film makes a lot of good points but is kinda long and dragged out. In the end it clearly shows that the system is heavily flawed (corps have obviously done a lot to further mankind but there are always down sides). What is the solution? Corporate money in politics is not right IMO. In the states its unlimited.....the corporations and special interest groups practically run the government.

One cool alternative to a corporation is a co-op. There are worker co-ops, were the workers share ownership and member co-ops. MEC is an awesome example of a member co-op. Very cool to read about..

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/Services/Membership/MECShares.jsp

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/AboutMEC/AboutOurCoOp/CoOpFaqs.jsp

Not to imply that is a complete solution. I do think the way the system today is is messed up though....think about how big corporations have got in the last 50 years. Everyone shops at the name brand corporation.

Scary fact: The 6 Walton (Walmart) family members are now worth 93 billion. They are richer than the bottom 30% (108 million) of Americans.

[reefermadness]

I completely disagree to this. Every living thing in this world "pay" to live. Different beings pay differently. For us, its money. For fishes, one pay with his/her life to save the rest. For corals, they pay by not been able to move. Starfishes pay by leaving parts of their bodies. For tigers, they pay by waiting for the next meal.

In the end, EVERYTHING pays. We happen to pay with pieces of papers (and being from a 3rd world country, that doesn't always work too, sometimes lives are also used as a form of payment).

And to the term "slave" that you used, you can't choose yourself to be a "slave". And there's always the option of being free (or to layman's term, live what you love and go to the wild where you don't have to...umm...PAY).
In the context of the original post "pay" was used to refer to money and the monetary system...not something physical. Tomato, potato.

[mrhasan]

In the context of the original post "pay" was used to refer to money and the monetary system...not something physical. Tomato, potato.

My point is every living thing has to pay one way or the other with something, its not just us humans. Its in the whole eco system.

[Reef Pilot]

One cool alternative to a corporation is a co-op. There are worker co-ops, were the workers share ownership and member co-ops. MEC is an awesome example of a member co-op. Very cool to read about..


Co-ops (incl credit unions) are just another type of corporation. Here is how our CRA looks at it.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/crprtns/typs/thr-eng.html

They are given certain benefits, like tax breaks, for being non-profit. I actually belong to one, and buy almost all my fuel from them.

But the downside is that usually they lack the expertise, sophistication and motivation to compete with their for profit cousins. And they don't contribute much (in taxes) to pay for our education, health care, social services etc, like individuals and for profit corporations do.

The old Soviet Union essentially operated like a bunch of giant cooperatives, except their "members" didn't always have a lot of say in how they were operated.

[reefermadness]

My point is every living thing has to pay one way or the other with something, its not just us humans. Its in the whole eco system.


Yes everything that can feel pain will and every living thing will die one day. No other living thing will pay with money.... That logic is sound, but I don't necessarily think the way he put it was good though.

Do you know that roughly 25,000 people day of starvation. While we all went about our day today 18,000 kids starved to death. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-02-17-un-hunger_x.htm

You know what would stop those people from starving.....MONEY. (yes, or a way to provide for themselves but in our society that means money).

[reefermadness]

Co-ops (incl credit unions) are just another type of corporation. Here is how our CRA looks at it.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/crprtns/typs/thr-eng.html

They are given certain benefits, like tax breaks, for being non-profit. I actually belong to one, and buy almost all my fuel from them.

But the downside is that usually they lack the expertise, sophistication and motivation to compete with their for profit cousins. And they don't contribute much (in taxes) to pay for our education, health care, social services etc, like individuals and for profit corporations do.

The old Soviet Union essentially operated like a bunch of giant cooperatives, except their "members" didn't always have a lot of say in how they were operated.

I never said a society filled with co-ops is the answer....although it may be part of one. Stiffer regulation, corporate money out of politics, that would help.

Look Im not down playing the important role corporation have had in the past and present but they are larger than ever and more powerful than ever. They only have one purpose and that is to make money at all costs. If the idea of breaking the law and getting caught is less costly (in dollar terms) they do it.

And as far as paying taxes.....many of the largest US business such as GE paid no corporate income taxes last year.

[Reef Pilot]

And as far as paying taxes.....many of the largest US business such as GE paid no corporate income taxes last year.
Yeah, problem in the US is that they get too many tax breaks there, corps and individuals, and they have got even smarter with avoiding them.

It's quite different in Canada where corps pay through the nose (despite our lower marginal rates), at the municipal, provincial and federal levels. The only way (almost) to escape tax here is to lose money.

In the US, there is a major industry (big accounting firms) that advises corps on how to avoid taxes. They really, really need to rewrite their tax code. Even ours here in Canada could use some work.

[mrhasan]

Yes everything that can feel pain will and every living thing will die one day. No other living thing will pay with money.... That logic is sound, but I don't necessarily think the way he put it was good though.

Do you know that roughly 25,000 people day of starvation. While we all went about our day today 18,000 kids starved to death. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-02-17-un-hunger_x.htm

You know what would stop those people from starving.....MONEY. (yes, or a way to provide for themselves but in our society that means money).

Thanks for understanding :D That was my point, everything has to pay.

I am aware of huge number of people starving to death (hence the 3rd world and paying with lives comparison) but wasn't aware of the statistics. Thanks for the info :)

[Fesso]

Ya you're right, it's bought and payed for. They're not all bad though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lGG_FE78uA
Enjoy!

[Skimmerking]

:drinking: dude have another one. talk about DEEP THOUGHTS ROLMAO

[Slick Fork]

And as far as paying taxes.....many of the largest US business such as GE paid no corporate income taxes last year.

That's not what their audited financial statements say.

http://www.ge.com/sites/default/files/GE-AR2012-Summary-of-Operating-Segments.pdf

[Slick Fork]

Yeah, problem in the US is that they get too many tax breaks there, corps and individuals, and they have got even smarter with avoiding them.

It's quite different in Canada where corps pay through the nose (despite our lower marginal rates), at the municipal, provincial and federal levels. The only way (almost) to escape tax here is to lose money.

In the US, there is a major industry (big accounting firms) that advises corps on how to avoid taxes. They really, really need to rewrite their tax code. Even ours here in Canada could use some work.

Not quite true, American corps do seem to have more loopholes, but there is just as big an industry here in Canada working hard to make sure Canadian corp's can utilise as many tax advantages as possible. CRA is pretty quick to close ones that provide an unfair advantage, but many of these "loopholes" are designed as an instrument of policy rather than an unintentional "we forgot to cover that base" kind of loophole. For example, many profitable business get extensive tax credits because the government wants to promote certain industries or provide a break to small business owners, etc.

If you want to shine a light on an industry, look at agriculture. Most corporations I know would kill to get the kind of tax breaks that farms do.

As has been mentioned up-thread, a corporations behaviour is dictated by the ethics of its shareholders. Management answers to shareholders and if the shareholders are tolerating/encouraging unethical behaviour than there is the problem. If you took away the corporate structure, those same unethical people would simply find a different mechanism to make their money.

[reefermadness]

That's not what their audited financial statements say.

http://www.ge.com/sites/default/files/GE-AR2012-Summary-of-Operating-Segments.pdf

Im gonna assume that is for GE as a whole and not just the US operations and US corporate income tax. What large multinational corps often do is off load expenses to the countries with high tax rates for deductions and keep the revenues overseas where taxes are often lower.

As far as it not being true....IDK, some pretty reputable sources say otherwise.

http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.aspx?post=d715c70d-f0d0-4474-8223-2949588e90f6

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/general-electric-taxes_n_2852094.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all

After researching it seems it hasn't been proven but GE did not release anything proving otherwise which tells me it's either true or they paid very little anyway.

An interesting fact in the first article... "Now, the Times reports, only 6.6% of Uncle Sam's tax revenue comes from corporations (down from 30% in the 1950s)."

[Slick Fork]

Im gonna assume that is for GE as a whole and not just the US operations and US corporate income tax. What large multinational corps often do is off load expenses to the countries with high tax rates for deductions and keep the revenues overseas where taxes are often lower.

As far as it not being true....IDK, some pretty reputable sources say otherwise.

http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.aspx?post=d715c70d-f0d0-4474-8223-2949588e90f6

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/general-electric-taxes_n_2852094.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all

After researching it seems it hasn't been proven but GE did not release anything proving otherwise which tells me it's either true or they paid very little anyway.

An interesting fact in the first article... "Now, the Times reports, only 6.6% of Uncle Sam's tax revenue comes from corporations (down from 30% in the 1950s)."

Not saying there's not a problem with the way the US taxes its businesses and citizens but a lot of what you read is a lot of speculation, usually by people not very sophisticated in how these things are accounted for.

Without going into a lot of boring detail, relevant accounting regulations (IFRS and US GAAP) disallow the kind of reporting you're talking about; earning revenue/expense in one nation and reporting it another with better tax rates, it's just not allowed. Public companies are also required to have their financial statements audited as a condition of being listed on their respective exchanges (NYSE, TSX, etc.). This means an independent accounting firm tests the financial statements to ensure that they are following the rules and not misrepresenting themselves to shareholders and other stakeholders. If a firms statements are audited and the audit opinion is unqualified, it's a pretty safe bet the statements are fairly presented; that includes taxes paid and where the revenues came from.

Again, not saying they don't spend a lot of money finding programs and credits that minimize their tax expense, but there's a big difference between illegally misrepresenting financial information and finding legal ways to reduce your tax burden.

As far as ethics, if I called you up and offered you my services as an accountant so I could reduce the amount of tax you'd pay, would you say not a chance, I'd LOVE to pay more? Didn't think so, so if it's ok for an individual to actively engage in tax planning, why is it unethical for a corporation to do so (again assuming all tax planning done is above board and maximising legal programs).

[Slick Fork]

Just a further note, those articles seem a little misleading to me. They refer to it as "holding profits overseas", which implies that GE earned the revenue in the US and then transferred the money to an offshore bank account.

What they are likely referring to in actuality is that GE's subsidiaries earned the money overseas from operations in other countries and rather than flowing the money up to the US parent corporation the subsidiary reinvests profits earned in Brazil, for example, back into their Brazilian operations.

[reefermadness]

I'm not implying they are doing anything illegal. That is the problem.

They have lots of ways to avoid taxation....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2012/12/27/facebook-mirrors-googles-offshore-tax-scheme/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9763615/Facebook-hid-440m-in-Cayman-Islands-tax-haven.html

Smaller corporations, businesses and the average man could only wish to have the knowledge and resources to reduce taxation at the level of these large multinational organizations.

[Slick Fork]

I'm not implying they are doing anything illegal. That is the problem.

They have lots of ways to avoid taxation....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2012/12/27/facebook-mirrors-googles-offshore-tax-scheme/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9763615/Facebook-hid-440m-in-Cayman-Islands-tax-haven.html

Smaller corporations, businesses and the average man could only wish to have the knowledge and resources to reduce taxation at the level of these large multinational organizations.

Ha, even these big guns would drool at the deductions Agri-business of all sizes gets. I'd be really interested to see some of the financial statements and tax returns of the really big farming corporations.

As far as the knowledge the big guys have goes, it's all there for everybody and it's all scalable. The same principals and breaks that work for the big guys mostly work for the small guys. Their size doesn't get them any special perks, just the opposite actually, however a lot of these structures and mechanisms simply aren't cost effective for small businesses and individuals. It might be cost effective for GE to spend $150,000 to have a team of accountants spend 3 months on optimising corporate share structure, but it just wouldn't be worth it for the little guys. We could do it, but the tax advantage would be so small there would be no benefit. Not because the rules favour the big guy necessarily, simply because that's the economy of scale.

Just read the forbes article and yeah, some of it is due to their nature as it involves intellectual property and licencing. Stuff that wouldn't be available to the corporate structure we setup for say an energy company.

Large corps though are taxed at a high(er) interest rate, federally it's at 38% Small business benefit from a number of rate reductions they get:
38% - Basic federal corporate tax rate
-17% - Small business deduction for firms with revenues under 500K
-10% - General rate reduction
-----
11% effective federal tax rate for small business - less than the 12.5% achieved with the double Irish method discussed in the article

I can do that for a little guy for much less than big corporations spend on their corporate accounting departments :)

[Spyd]

The US has screwed themselves over with their tax laws. That is exactly what is killing them and that is why there is such a drastic spread between rich and poor in the US. The taxes that large US companies pay is peanuts compared to what it used to be. But, if you make them pay more, they will just close the doors and move to a different country. Bless your heart Global economics. :wink:

Also, the morons have mortgages as tax right offs.... I mean how stupid can you be. So every gets as big of a mortgage as possible and nobody wants to pay them off because it is a write off every year. The housing industry in the U.S is in complete shambles. A much deeper recession looms in the US soon. They just can't stop printing money and soon it will be good for nothing but toilet paper if they keep it up.

[Reef Pilot]

Geez, I could say a lot more on this topic,... but I think I will keep my mouth shut... It does surprise me, though, how little the general public seems to understand how corporations work, or even basic economics. No wonder we have such a big debt problem, both with governments and individuals...

[RuGlu6]

Here is what Mr Corporate Gamble thinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s

Good to see that this thread has actually staid civilized (mostly)

I love you all people.

As much as I love following your thinking processes.

Few things i hate are:
- Money (Makes us slaves imo)
- War: makes us suffer, and makes corporations super rich. USA is always in war (peace keeping lol), think why?

- Banksters: Makes us poor, making money out of thin air, landing money that they dont own/have, Landing 100 times more than they print and collect interest 100 times on every dollar, keep us in slavery. 'Leverage' is when say you deposit $1000 in your account and bank say that they have 100.000.00 Land it to a 100 people and collect interest 100 times over on the money they never had.

-TV and all corporate "media" brainwashing machine.


English is not my first language so please let me apologise for not expressing my points of view clearly.

[Rice Reef]

Here is what Mr Corporate Gamble thinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s

Good to see that this thread has actually staid civilized (mostly)

I love you all people.

As much as I love following your thinking processes.

Few things i hate are:
- Money (Makes us slaves imo)
- War: makes us suffer, and makes corporations super rich. USA is always in war (peace keeping lol), think why?

- Banksters: Makes us poor, making money out of thin air, landing money that they dont own/have, Landing 100 times more than they print and collect interest 100 times on every dollar, keep us in slavery. 'Leverage' is when say you deposit $1000 in your account and bank say that they have 100.000.00 Land it to a 100 people and collect interest 100 times over on the money they never had.

-TV and all corporate "media" brainwashing machine.


English is not my first language so please let me apologise for not expressing my points of view clearly.

Money is a way that allows us to exchange for goods and services and it replaced the bartering system. Without money, it would be very difficult to get anything including essentials.

Banks and other financial intermediaries allow people with surplus and deficits to connect. Without having any financial systems many of is would not have been able to purchase a home or home etc... It is also a place to store your financial holdings rather than hiding it in your mattress etc...

I'm not certain where you are going with this and I do not understand your political beliefs at this time but without money and financial intermediaries how will the world operate? Perhaps you. An enlighten us with your thoughts and ideas of how societies would operate in your "perfect world"? From this we may then understand you better.

At least we agree to hate war...

[RuGlu6]

Perhaps you. An enlighten us with your thoughts and ideas of how societies would operate in your "perfect world"? From this we may then understand you better.

At least we agree to hate war...

Yup, and "disagree" (wont say "hate" because Mods will sink their teeth in my back and draw blood again :lol:,) with anyone who is in the war, or making money on it, or stupid and brainwashed enough to sign up for it and get paid for being in war...

As far as enlightening goes, i would rather prefer to plant a seed in peoples mind that perhaps will generate a thought. The reason is that it is impossible to change anyone's mind by arguing.

[lastlight]

The reason is that it is impossible to change anyone's mind by arguing.

are you married? serious question...

[MitchM]

Here is a seed that should be planted in every junior high school student.
This should be required viewing.

It is an excellent animated 3 part documentary of how vital debt is to our economy.
The first 2 parts are available on Youtube no charge, the third part you need to order and it discusses an alternative "money supply."

I highly recommend everyone to watch at least the first 2 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8

[Reef_Geek]

I declare shenanigans.

yup. I just did that.

[RuGlu6]

Here is a seed that should be planted in every junior high school student.
This should be required viewing.

It is an excellent animated 3 part documentary of how vital debt is to our economy.
The first 2 parts are available on Youtube no charge, the third part you need to order and it discusses an alternative "money supply."

I highly recommend everyone to watch at least the first 2 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8

No surprise that this was based on Bank of England's "brief history of banknotes"... get in to more debt, be more enslaved, feed the banksters.

I'd rather have my kid watch ZEITGEIST in school as a required viewing ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

[MitchM]

Conspiracy movies like Zeitgeist should not be shown to kids.
I tried to watch it a few years ago and turned it off because of it's nonsense.

Kids need to learn how our actual economy works and make decisions that will help them make productive choices, not fringe films that are meant to confuse them.

I'm not sure the point of this thread, but corporations are a pretty simple concept, a legal entity that allow business people to safely conduct business without putting their personal property at risk.

[reefermadness]

Yes because our economies and monetary system is perfect and infallible. They definitely should never be scrutinized. The shenanigans (yes I said it) of Wallstreet is just part of the perfection.

If kids/students can't listen to different ideas and arguments and look on them objectively, we'll that is a shame. Also if we can't think and work on improvements to systems (monetary system being one), that is so closed minded and also sad.

Personally I really like the Zeitgeist films (there are 3). I don't agree with everything in them but they are eye openers for sure. They cover a lot of topics, like mental health, religion, war and are probably only 25% about the monetary system.

A good documentary to watch about the crash of 2008 and subsequent recession is inside job. It does a good job of laying out the sicking financial moves that lead to one of worst market declines in history. In October '08 the head of the International Monetary Fund/IMF warned that the world financial system was teetering on the "brink of systemic meltdown.

I'm not personally against any of this stuff but even if you think something is great you can still try to objectively look at the flaws and think of improvements. I love myself but sometimes I think about how I can be a better person. Then I grab a beer :)

[Reef Pilot]

Zeitgeist reminds me of the hippie movement back in the late 60's and the communes. Then in later life many of them ended up on Wall Street, and in corporations.

As was said, corporations are very simple. People pooling their resources and different skills to create more assets for everyone to share. Some are profitable, some are not. Definitely more efficient and productive than individuals or communes.

But we will always have protests and alternative lifestyle movements, as envy and jealously just seems to be part of the human make-up. And it seems our species are not the only ones, as per another thread I posted recently.
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=101358

[reefermadness]

Zeitgeist reminds me of the hippie movement back in the late 60's and the communes. Then in later life many of them ended up on Wall Street, and in corporations.Aint no hippie mo fo here, but I do like the films. Honestly, have you even watched one start to finish?

As was said, corporations are very simple. People pooling their resources and different skills to create more assets for everyone to share. Some are profitable, some are not. Definitely more efficient and productive than individuals or communes.Everything is simple if you choose not to look at the details. C'mon I can give you the definition of a nuclear reaction but does that tell you everything you need to know about a nuclear reaction?

nuclear reaction

— n
a process in which the structure and energy content of an atomic nucleus are changed by interaction with another nucleus or particle


But we will always have protests and alternative lifestyle movements, as envy and jealously just seems to be part of the human make-up. And it seems our species are not the only ones, as per another thread I posted recently.
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=101358And when people protest anything that is unjust or unfair that makes them jealous in your mind?

[Reef Pilot]

Aint no hippie mo fo here, but I do like the films. Honestly, have you even watched one start to finish?
Everything is simple if you choose not to look at the details. C'mon I can give you the definition of a nuclear reaction but does that tell you everything you need to know about a nuclear reaction?

nuclear reaction

— n
a process in which the structure and energy content of an atomic nucleus are changed by interaction with another nucleus or particle

And when people protest anything that is unjust or unfair that makes them jealous in your mind?

Let me just say that life is never fair, and I am not going to waste my energy fretting about it. Life is too short to be unhappy. What is more important is to make the most of what we have and the opportunities that come our way. That includes making good choices and helping our kids, as well as those less fortunate than ourselves.

And be thankful for what we have. Hmmm, isn't that what this past weekend was supposed to be about?....

[reefermadness]

Let me just say that life is never fair, and I am not going to waste my energy fretting about it. Life is too short to be unhappy. What is more important is to make the most of what we have and the opportunities that come our way. That includes making good choices and helping our kids, as well as those less fortunate than ourselves.

And be thankful for what we have. Hmmm, isn't that what this past weekend was supposed to be about?.... So you are saying women should stop worrying about equal pay for equal work. Minorities should stop fretting about discrimination. African Americans should have been happy enough as slaves. People with out food and water should be thankful they have air. People who lost there life retirement savings or could not retire when they planned to because of the wallstreet crash should just be quite. Students with thousands of dollars in debt should be happy cause although they can't find a decent job in their field they do have a job (although its at walmart).

You start out by saying life is never fair and you shouldnt worry about it, than you go on and say we should make good choices and help our kids and those less fortunate. Which one is it??

[Reef Pilot]

So you are saying women should stop worrying about equal pay for equal work. Minorities should stop fretting about discrimination. African Americans should have been happy enough as slaves. People with out food and water should be thankful they have air. People who lost there life retirement savings or could not retire when they planned to because of the wallstreet crash should just be quite. Students with thousands of dollars in debt should be happy cause although they can't find a decent job in their field they do have a job (although its at walmart).

You start out by saying life is never fair and you shouldnt worry about it, than you go on and say we should make good choices and help our kids and those less fortunate. Which one is it??

Well, if I was going to fret about every bit of unfairness (in my opinion) I see in life, I would be a very unhappy person. Instead I choose to change things for the better and help people, with whatever choices and resources I can muster.

You probably won't agree with this either, but here is what Bill Gates said to some school kids some time ago (although the source may be in dispute):

----------Whether you like Bill Gates or not...this is pretty
cool. Here's some advice Bill Gates recently dished out
at a high school speech about 11 things they did not
learn in school. He talks about how feel-good,
politically correct teaching has created a full
generation of kids with no concept of reality and how
this concept sets them up for failure in the real
world.

RULE 1
Life is not fair - get used to it.

RULE 2
The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world
will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel
good about yourself.

RULE 3
You will NOT make 40 thousand dollars a year right out
of high school. You won't be a vice president with
car phone, until you earn both.

RULE 4
If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a
boss. He doesn't have tenure.

RULE 5
Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your
grandparents had a different word for burger flipping
they
called it Opportunity.

RULE 6
If you mess up,it's not your parents' fault, so don't
whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

RULE 7
Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as
they are now. They got that way from paying your bills,
cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about
how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest
from the parasites of your parent's generation, try
delousing the closet in your own room.


RULE 8
Your school may have done away with winners and losers,
but life has not. In some schools they have abolished
failing grades and they'll give you as many times as
you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the
slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

RULE 9
Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get
summers off and very few employers are interested in
helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

RULE 10
Television is NOT real life. In real life people
actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

RULE 11
Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for
one.

[MitchM]

Yes because our economies and monetary system is perfect and infallible. They definitely should never be scrutinized. The shenanigans (yes I said it) of Wallstreet is just part of the perfection.

If kids/students can't listen to different ideas and arguments and look on them objectively, we'll that is a shame. Also if we can't think and work on improvements to systems (monetary system being one), that is so closed minded and also sad.

Personally I really like the Zeitgeist films (there are 3). I don't agree with everything in them but they are eye openers for sure. They cover a lot of topics, like mental health, religion, war and are probably only 25% about the monetary system.

A good documentary to watch about the crash of 2008 and subsequent recession is inside job. It does a good job of laying out the sicking financial moves that lead to one of worst market declines in history. In October '08 the head of the International Monetary Fund/IMF warned that the world financial system was teetering on the "brink of systemic meltdown.

I'm not personally against any of this stuff but even if you think something is great you can still try to objectively look at the flaws and think of improvements. I love myself but sometimes I think about how I can be a better person. Then I grab a beer :)

I didn't say the system was perfect, of course is is not. That's why we need more education about the systems that are currently in place.

I am also neither closed minded or sad, quite the opposite.

In order to view or discuss conspiracy stories, one should have a good understanding of the subject beforehand and a sophistication that allows for an objective understanding of who the presenter is. The "artist" or "activist" does have an agenda. I would prefer to see a respected investigative journalist first dig up some actual facts. Otherwise it's basically just campfire talking points.

Also, you can be sure that the presenter has a few corporations of their own, in order to maximize profits from the product that they're selling.

I'm also not naive.:smile:

[reefermadness]

Well, if I was going to fret about every bit of unfairness (in my opinion) I see in life, I would be a very unhappy person. Instead I choose to change things for the better and help people, with whatever choices and resources I can muster. Again this is very confusing. If you are not concerned about anything why are you trying to change anything. Someone who is not concerned does nothing.

I'm no huge activist, far from it but at least I can look at this world and be concerned. I don't let it affect my daily life but I acknowledge the messed up stuff I witness/read and engage in a conversation about it sure. Maybe that will increase awareness. Like when I mentioned 18,000 children die of hungry related causes a day. I bet that blew the minds of a lot of people reading it. I know when I first read that statistic I was shocked.


You probably won't agree with this either, but here is what Bill Gates said to some school kids some time ago (although the source may be in dispute. ....the source is in dispute (Bill Gates did not say or write these words) by pretty much everyone.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_bill_gates_speech.htm
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/billgatesspeech.htm#.UmAJLVP-tWo
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/schoolrules.asp

[reefermadness]

I didn't say the system was perfect, of course is is not. That's why we need more education about the systems that are currently in place.

I am also neither closed minded or sad, quite the opposite.

In order to view or discuss conspiracy stories, one should have a good understanding of the subject beforehand and a sophistication that allows for an objective understanding of who the presenter is. The "artist" or "activist" does have an agenda. I would prefer to see a respected investigative journalist first dig up some actual facts. Otherwise it's basically just campfire talking points.

Also, you can be sure that the presenter has a few corporations of their own, in order to maximize profits from the product that they're selling.

I'm also not naive.:smile:Sorry I'm not saying your are sad or close minded in general but to not even allow yourself to consider the possibility of truth or partial truth in at least some of his arguments is. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and Im sure some of his arguments are made out of thin air but some hold truth as well, its just to get you thinking. Waiting for main stream media to shed light on some of these issues is not a good idea either, IMO the state of media today is pretty bad. Do you really think what the "trusted media" feeds us today is fool proof and 100% true?

I also never said you were naive. :)

[MitchM]

... Waiting for main stream media to shed light on some of these issues is not a good idea either, IMO the state of media today is pretty bad. Do you really think what the "trusted media" feeds us today is fool proof and 100% true?...

In my opinion, the media are just as guilty as politicians.
The media will scare people to sell their stories and politicians will scare people to get votes.
The best way to combat that fear is education and to call them on things that are just not true.
That is all.:smile:

[Reef Pilot]

Again this is very confusing. If you are not concerned about anything why are you trying to change anything. Someone who is not concerned does nothing.


Well, fretting is not the same as being concerned. Of course, I am concerned. But my actions may be different than some others. Just talking about the problems won't solve them. We need to take actions and make decisions to make things better. And that includes utilizing the different knowledge/resources that we have as individuals in whatever field/career we may have chosen. We don't all have the same capabilities to help.

I believe in creating more wealth/assets for everyone to share. That helps the poor and improves everyone's quality of life, including around the world. Of course, there are wars and non democratic dictators/thugs out there that will thwart that.

That is in direct contrast to some who focus more on dividing up assets and redistributing wealth. Another way to look at it, is instead of just slicing up the pie, is create a bigger pie. If we don't grow our wealth and assets, we have less to give to the poor, and even support our own social services like health and education.

I guess that brings us back to corporations. I believe they are the most efficient and effective means to create more wealth and assets for everyone to share. Again, corporations are just a collection of people (or may be individuals) pooling their skills and resources. And competition is what makes corporations most productive. The bad ones just don't survive, unless they get some kind of protection or help from govts.

And just to be clear, I don't believe that everyone should be working for a corporation (whether large or as an individual). I do believe we also need govt services, including some research and development. And civil service is indeed an admirable career choice and profession. But there needs to be an affordable balance, that in the end supports overall growth and improved quality of life for everyone. That's what I am trying to say.

[lastlight]

http://www.fishbrains.net/images/93/x.jpg

[FitoPharmer]

I agree with may of the points being made, and disagree with many. Some things that I find to be constantly obstructing a more productive and more sustainable humanity seem to be unmentioned.
I don't think anyone mentioned the super rich using tax havens, which exist just as much in the USA and in Canada. This is an effective strategy for dodging taxes that is not an option to anyone making anything under several million per year.
For example if you use an iphone: http://www.forbes.com/sites/leesheppard/2013/05/28/how-does-apple-avoid-taxes/

I totally have to agree with any negative sentiment around corporate money in politics. Political donations made by corporations are almost never, if ever, neutral and once again take away from the idea of politics creating what is best for the people of the country and reinforces the idea of doing what is best for their corporate sponsor so they can make lots of money and donate again next election cycle.

One idea I had to try and rectify this system is to peg all MP's , MLA's, senators, the PM, and other non essential representatives of the people of Canada to the average Canadians wage and give them a pension that also is equal to the average private market compensation. Its really not that hard for me to imagine an almost overnight 360 in Canadian politics after something like that was implemented. Obviously this is not a prefect solution but it just might be better then what we do now putting out elected officials into the top 20% of income earners in Canada and wondering why 80% of us end up slowly loosing what made Canada and America so great in the first place.

One point that was made I don't think I could ever agree with is money being evil. Money might be able to be used for evil, but I think it comes back to the guns don't kill people, people kill people argument in a heck of a hurry. The best definition for money I have ever heard, and I cannot logically disprove this in my mind, is a unit to represent and facilitate the transfer of energy. I think anyone on this message board would be able to agree from their own hobby experience that the transfer of energy in biological systems is a basic fundamental for any type of biological system to work. Human society being a heavily biologically rooted system also requires energy transfers to be made at an incredible pace, especially in the fast world of the internet.The transfer of energy itself is neutral, however I will agree that energy itself can be used for a multitude of negative effects on society. This positive or negative effect is almost totally depended on the circumstances and mind frame of the people or person conducting where and how energy flows and not in the conducting system its self.
In my mind if the logical continuation of the all money is bad because you can do bad things with it argument is: Now all stores are bad because some of them sell bullets sometimes and sometimes bullets kill people.
So just remeber money as we know it is a relatively new system to humanity and our ancestors, and like any type of evolution just because it starts out ridiculous and inefficient, that does not mean in any way it is a bad idea.
Dry and boring to most I really enjoyed listening to Friedrich A. Hayek discuss his ideas about economics.
The Life & Thought of Friedrich Hayek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU8rQnKN_uo)

Economics a very long and confusing subject and to steal a line from Jon Stewart if you read a few things about economics and make blankets statements like "money is bad" that says much more about the kind of person you are then ever will about the point you are really trying to get across.

I really enjoyed Bill Gates rules. Thank you for sharing.

One point that I either missed or was simply missing is the strange graduated income tax that exists now. I knew about this subject before but the one thing that really cemented this idea in my head was Rich dad poor dad's Robert T. Kiyosaki talking about the income tax structure in our country. I think Jon Stewart also sums it up best when he asks is investment and corporate income worth more to our countries prosperity then normal manual labor? If so lower the corporate tax rate and keep capitol gains taxes low, but it comes at a very heavy cost of investment that could have otherwise come from the pockets of normal every day schmoes like me.

Now to something completely off topic and positive:
This is a amazing desertification reversal projects
Allan Savory: How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI)

http://www.savoryinstitute.com/

And I thought I would add in this weird debate. When i read the title the first time I just said WTF?!?!? and afterwards was very surprised by the content:
How Much Government Is Necessary?" Debate - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_k93op7_Pc)

More thinking positive:
http://www.corbettreport.com/episode-170-the-coming-anastrophe/

[reefermadness]

http://www.fishbrains.net/images/93/x.jpg

http://empyreanedge.com/wp-content/uploads/tin-foil-hat.jpeg

[Reef_Geek]

http://cumbriansky.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/gif__nasa_fake_moonlanding.jpg

[ReefHero]

Very good thread!! It's nice to know there are others out there with open minds and the ability to scrutinize things that are unclear or unfair. This is the only way to make forward movement as humans IMO. Otherwise we are simply brain dead zombies.....for some, the zombie apocalypse is already here and has been for sometime ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[RuGlu6]

Very good thread!! It's nice to know there are others out there with open minds and the ability to scrutinize things that are unclear or unfair. This is the only way to make forward movement as humans IMO. Otherwise we are simply brain dead zombies.....for some, the zombie apocalypse is already here and has been for sometime ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Couldn't have said better my self !
We all think that we have open mind, but only like-minded people will agree LOL.

You think what You know is true, I think what I know is true....
But what is the REAL truth? We will never know with today's system.
JMTCW
I guess my main goal was achieved in planting a good conversation seed...
This is good.

[Reef Pilot]

I guess my main goal was achieved in planting a good conversation seed...
This is good.
As in trolling... You still didn't say what you do for a living. That could definitely explain a few things...

[RuGlu6]

As in trolling... You still didn't say what you do for a living. That could definitely explain a few things...

Had to look up trolling... I feel the same way when people on here trying to make me and others upset by their remarks.

Response to any idea is always voluntarily, don't have to if you don't like it.
Just because someone has different view does not mean she or he deserves an attack from others.
Attacking free will, open mind and free thinking is easy to do, but what is the point? I don't mean you personally, just in general point of view.
If this thread is not interesting then why participate?

I respect opinions of others, but would also like to be respected.

Honestly i don't like personal questions that is why i did not answer it, sorry.
But if you insist i probably make more than you would guess.
Don't know what you wanted explained though? why i am so strange?

This "do for a living" goes back to my point that humans have to pay for living. All other creatures are free in that regard because; Fish, Lion, Bird or a Gazelle even though they have to adapt and survive they don't have to make money for being on this planet, don't have to go to work. Don't have to pay for a meal. They are truly free to do what they want. You can kill them, or train to do tricks, but you can not make them be slaves willingly.
And well, if you have read that far thank you for that.
cheers.

[Reef_Geek]

money enables society

love it or hate it, it is a thing that is inert. It is neither good nor bad. It enables civilizations to advance in complexity for better or worse.

Here's a prize winning book about it, if you seek truth.

Ascent of Money. Ferguson, Niall.

http://www.niallferguson.com/publications/the-ascent-of-money

[Reef Pilot]

Had to look up trolling... I feel the same way when people on here trying to make me and others upset by their remarks.

Response to any idea is always voluntarily, don't have to if you don't like it.
Just because someone has different view does not mean she or he deserves an attack from others.
Attacking free will, open mind and free thinking is easy to do, but what is the point? I don't mean you personally, just in general point of view.
If this thread is not interesting then why participate?

I respect opinions of others, but would also like to be respected.

Honestly i don't like personal questions that is why i did not answer it, sorry.
But if you insist i probably make more than you would guess.
Don't know what you wanted explained though? why i am so strange?

This "do for a living" goes back to my point that humans have to pay for living. All other creatures are free in that regard because; Fish, Lion, Bird or a Gazelle even though they have to adapt and survive they don't have to make money for being on this planet, don't have to go to work. Don't have to pay for a meal. They are truly free to do what they want. You can kill them, or train to do tricks, but you can not make them be slaves willingly.
And well, if you have read that far thank you for that.
cheers.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from. And I don't care how much you make.

I have met all kinds of people with my work and personal life. And their opinions and views seem to very much be a consequence of their environment and life experiences. We are all different (thank goodness for that), but we do tend to form beliefs and opinions that shape our careers and lives.

Your point of being a slave to money just doesn't make sense to me, though. Money is a currency, which actually gives me more freedom of choice to improve my life, and even partake in discretionary activities like reefing.

Here is a simple example of the freedom and choice that money provides. If I need to dig a ditch in my yard for some reason, I could get out my shovel and go to work at it, or I could hire someone with an excavator and pay him. I can then use the time I saved doing something that I am good at, and use the the money I make from that to pay the guy, and still have money left over for other things.

Open minds are great, and our curious and persistent thirst for new knowledge is what has brought us to this point in our civilization (hopefully it won't destroy us too). We are also very social beings, and have learned that by working together and pooling our resources (as with corporations), we have managed to create a better and safer life for ourselves and fellow human beings. Of course there are still many parts of the world that are still catching up. And we're not done with wars and human slavery.

But with open minds, we also can't ignore reality. Yeah, many do try, with drugs, alcohol, and even video games. Living in a fantasy dreamland, or wishing for some utopia can be a great escape..., for a while. However, the laws of survival (of the fittest) do generally prevail.

[Reef_Geek]

I have a strange combo of undergrad degree in a life science, and masters in finance & marketing. (it's a long story)

Animals and people are the same in that it is the survival of the fittest, in differing environments with differing 'selection pressure'

It comes down to resources. Animals that are fittest have better resources for their given environment. Resources can be in the form of territory, access to food, access to mates (harems), and also its compliment of genes. Stronger, fitter individuals have better genes, better resistance to disease, better appearance to attract mates (sexually dimorphism).

People that are fittest in our environment are more capable to amass wealth, have better health to attract mates and resist disease, have social intelligence to navigate society.

What is fittest in a given environment is not fittest in a different environment. Example, take a wall street banker and put him in war torn Somalia...

It is still a free competition, and all about resources. It's neither good nor bad, it is just the way the ecosystem (or society) has changed, and what has prevailed (be it the system or its most prevalent characters in its individuals), they exist simply because that is what has worked out best.

it is really a long way of saying, don't hate the player, hate the game.

[reefermadness]

Here is a seed that should be planted in every junior high school student.
This should be required viewing.

It is an excellent animated 3 part documentary of how vital debt is to our economy.
The first 2 parts are available on Youtube no charge, the third part you need to order and it discusses an alternative "money supply."

I highly recommend everyone to watch at least the first 2 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8

I watched the first part and I have to say it was really good. I like the idea of getting rid of the fractional reserve and central banking systems.

don't hate the player, hate the game.
Reply With Quotewords of wisdom.

[Reef Pilot]

I watched the first part and I have to say it was really good. I like the idea of getting rid of the fractional reserve and central banking systems.


While "printing money" to provide liquidity is necessary at times, we are now in uncharted territory with what the US fed is doing with their endless QE. It was originally intended to stimulate the economy (using the theory that a rising tide will float all boats). But now the current US govt is totally dependent on it to finance their over spending. And any hint to slow down QE (as with the recent taper talks), causes fears of another economic slowdown. So now they are living on monetary heroin, and can't get off it.

Not sure where it will end either. They seem to be unable to cut back spending, but at some point the debt will overrun their ability to pay their obligations, ie default. And when China realizes that, they will stop buying US treasury bonds.

Then interest rates will spike, along with inflation, and the economy will really plummet (and not just a short term cold turkey withdrawal).

That is a possible scenario. We are definitely in uncharted territory now, with US govt spending/debt, and QE. And corporations who created the real money for the govts to spend in the past, aren't growing fast enough (top lines, which create the jobs) anymore to keep up. And eventually their bottom lines will suffer, too.

So, you zombie apocalypse guys might be right after all... I'm just glad that I live in Canada,... but we are not immune either.

[Reef_Geek]

While "printing money" to provide liquidity is necessary at times, we are now in uncharted territory with what the US fed is doing with their endless QE. It was originally intended to stimulate the economy (using the theory that a rising tide will float all boats). But now the current US govt is totally dependent on it to finance their over spending. And any hint to slow down QE (as with the recent taper talks), causes fears of another economic slowdown. So now they are living on monetary heroin, and can't get off it.

Not sure where it will end either. They seem to be unable to cut back spending, but at some point the debt will overrun their ability to pay their obligations, ie default. And when China realizes that, they will stop buying US treasury bonds.

Then interest rates will spike, along with inflation, and the economy will really plummet (and not just a short term cold turkey withdrawal).

That is a possible scenario. We are definitely in uncharted territory now, with US govt spending/debt, and QE. And corporations who created the real money for the govts to spend in the past, aren't growing fast enough (top lines, which create the jobs) anymore to keep up. And eventually their bottom lines will suffer, too.

So, you zombie apocalypse guys might be right after all... I'm just glad that I live in Canada,... but we are not immune either.


the US debt is definitely scary. Increasing the debt ceiling is just deferring the problem to the next generation.

It seems that hyperinflation was a popular topic for a while, leading to that last commodity bubble with resource-based investments being over valued. And as soon as the public forgot about it, got some hints that the economy was coming out of the trough, people threw their money into equities again (I did too, lots of under-valued stuff... it was like money was on sale at the bank). But the enormous US debt never went away...

I really don't know how this is going to play out... but there's quite a few potential game changers that can be optimistic.

With Bakken oil and more effective hydraulic fracturing techniques, the US now has a new-found resource that is suggested to make them self sufficient on oil in a few decades. So barring any more spending on new wars and curbing its own spending, there's a chance of managing that debt. If the US reach a point where oil exports exceed imports, that will change the outlook.

With taxes. I've worked in the US and in Canada. Working in the US was great... very little income tax compared to Canada. So, government & money is just like a person with money. If you want less debt, make more money and spend less. If the government want less debt, make more money (increase taxes), and spend less. Yes, increasing taxes is political suicide, but it is still an option (and a necessary one at that). Printing more money just causes inflation and defers the problem... all economists know that and so do the guys in charge. They are just choosing the popular route versus the necessary painful route.

If the US goes into hyperinflation, Canada is equally screwed. Our number one trading partner will then not be able to afford our exports with devaluation of the USD against CAD. Something that cost a US business 1 USD to buy (where CAD is at par) may double or triple with a USD devaluation. Canadian economy will hurt, we're an export & resource-based country.

[Reef Pilot]

the US debt is definitely scary. Increasing the debt ceiling is just deferring the problem to the next generation.

It seems that hyperinflation was a popular topic for a while, leading to that last commodity bubble with resource-based investments being over valued. And as soon as the public forgot about it, got some hints that the economy was coming out of the trough, people threw their money into equities again (I did too, lots of under-valued stuff... it was like money was on sale at the bank). But the enormous US debt never went away...

I really don't know how this is going to play out... but there's quite a few potential game changers that can be optimistic.

With Bakken oil and more effective hydraulic fracturing techniques, the US now has a new-found resource that is suggested to make them self sufficient on oil in a few decades. So barring any more spending on new wars and curbing its own spending, there's a chance of managing that debt. If the US reach a point where oil exports exceed imports, that will change the outlook.

With taxes. I've worked in the US and in Canada. Working in the US was great... very little income tax compared to Canada. So, government & money is just like a person with money. If you want less debt, make more money and spend less. If the government want less debt, make more money (increase taxes), and spend less. Yes, increasing taxes is political suicide, but it is still an option (and a necessary one at that). Printing more money just causes inflation and defers the problem... all economists know that and so do the guys in charge. They are just choosing the popular route versus the necessary painful route.

If the US goes into hyperinflation, Canada is equally screwed. Our number one trading partner will then not be able to afford our exports with devaluation of the USD against CAD. Something that cost a US business 1 USD to buy (where CAD is at par) may double or triple with a USD devaluation. Canadian economy will hurt, we're an export & resource-based country.

Agree... The US does have some room to increase taxes. But it is all about timing and doing it now may not help things, and just prolong the agony. Cutting spending on the other hand will hurt short term, but it could lead to substantial future growth which then could help pay for some of those future debt obligations and entitlements (and they have just added a 3rd one) spending.

And yes, Canada needs to continue to increase their trade away from the US, especially with Asia. That's where the future seems to be.

[Reef_Geek]

so I think that we can segue back to the origin idea of this thread... which I think was... an objection to being a slave to a corporation...

A corporation is a subset system within the overall system (our economy, our society). We can be part of it actively (daily rat race), passively (not give it much thought), or reject it (go live in the mountains and prep for apocalypse). In parts of the world where there's higher standards of living, better quality of life, longer life expectancy... first world nations have our type of 'system' of society. These similar systems exist in different first world nations, not due to coincidence, not due to some artificial cause, not by accident... these systems continue successfully because they naturally worked out to prevail.


If I am lucky enough to live in such a system, I can choose to learn it, to understand it, and make the most of it for myself as best that I can, or I can choose to not understand it, get frustrated by it, object to it, and not have as good of a time... for the short time that I am alive in this world

Love it or hate it, money doesn't care, and money doesn't care that you don't understand how it works. So if I want the best quality of life that I can possibly have, it would make the most sense for me to understand how money works, and learn what are the forces that shape my best bet on my resources/wealth.

So I'm not working my butt off for the corporation for no reason. I am a shareholder as an employee too, thus, the corporation also works for me, the board of directors work for me.

[Reef Pilot]

So I'm not working my butt off for the corporation for no reason. I am a shareholder as an employee too, thus, the corporation also works for me, the board of directors work for me.

Yup, sounds like your head is screwed on solid.... Probably don't have to tell you this, but when it comes to personal finance, debt is the enemy. I was never so happy (well, almost) as the day I paid off my last mortgage.

While I never deprived myself or my family, I was always frugal (and still am), and it has paid off for me. I was able to retire early, and am thoroughly enjoying life. And I have no problem keeping busy (reefing ensures that), as my friends are always asking me what I do with my time.

[Reef_Geek]

Yup, sounds like your head is screwed on solid.... Probably don't have to tell you this, but when it comes to personal finance, debt is the enemy. I was never so happy (well, almost) as the day I paid off my last mortgage.


Thanks.

I think it's about using leverage (debt) with good business sense. Leverage is a very powerful tool. There's bad debt and good debt.

For example, I can't afford to buy my home out right, so I have a mortgage. I buy a property valued appropriately and at the right time/price. I'm not stretching to buy more than what I need, so my mortgage is affordable, and I have enough savings/investments that can handle a rate hike at refinancing. It is forced savings compared to rent.

Another example, I need a car, I could buy it out right... or, I could take advantage of low interest rates. At 2.5% APR... (sometimes zero for other brands), well, I could make more return on investment than 2.5% by keeping my investments rather than cashing them out to pay off the car.

Taking out a line of credit against a property's equity to wisely re-invest... for example to add a bathroom or finish a basement... not to build a pool or buy a Jacuzzi... so long as it can be justified in increase in property value, or additional loan payments and interest is recoverable proportionately (cap rate) in rental income. (and no, in wall aquariums do not increase property value)

Of course, I stay away from bad debt... carrying a credit card balance is a horrendous waste of money. I don't think there's value in leasing vehicles unless it can be a tax write off item for a business... etc.

But yes, I am looking forward to a day long into the future when 40% of my monthly cash flow doesn't get sucked into mortgage payments! It's far far away, but it's a heaven I've heard of!

[Reef_Geek]

should probably mention, we have different investment horizons.

I am still in my wealth accrual phase trying to ensure a retirement, whereas you're already there and have no need for debt.

[Reef Pilot]

Thanks.

I think it's about using leverage (debt) with good business sense. Leverage is a very powerful tool. There's bad debt and good debt.

For example, I can't afford to buy my home out right, so I have a mortgage. I buy a property valued appropriately and at the right time/price. I'm not stretching to buy more than what I need, so my mortgage is affordable, and I have enough savings/investments that can handle a rate hike at refinancing. It is forced savings compared to rent.

Another example, I need a car, I could buy it out right... or, I could take advantage of low interest rates. At 2.5% APR... (sometimes zero for other brands), well, I could make more return on investment than 2.5% by keeping my investments rather than cashing them out to pay off the car.

Taking out a line of credit against a property's equity to wisely re-invest... for example to add a bathroom or finish a basement... not to build a pool or buy a Jacuzzi... so long as it can be justified in increase in property value, or additional loan payments and interest is recoverable proportionately (cap rate) in rental income. (and no, in wall aquariums do not increase property value)

Of course, I stay away from bad debt... carrying a credit card balance is a horrendous waste of money. I don't think there's value in leasing vehicles unless it can be a tax write off item for a business... etc.

But yes, I am looking forward to a day long into the future when 40% of my monthly cash flow doesn't get sucked into mortgage payments! It's far far away, but it's a heaven I've heard of!

Yes, for sure using debt (as with a secured line of credit) for investment can be good, and I have done that, too. But just don't get yourself in a position where if the markets fall, you are forced to sell low. Or your house/condo goes underwater (as what happened in the US to so many). Remember the ultimate objective, buy low, sell high, not the other way around.

Real estate is generally a good asset (does go up and down), but you have to live somewhere, and rent is for sure wasted. I have bought and sold many homes over the years. Some for less than what I bought them for (80's was a tough time), too. But I did learn that with real estate, you don't get ahead with your sells, but with your buys. It is much easier to get a good buy (with good market research) than a good sell (not up to you, but the buyers). And of course it is all about location, location, location.

But I do draw the line with borrowing money for a car. I can say that I never did that. Although, to be fair, interest rates were much higher many years ago. Problem with a car, as with boats, LED lights, etc, is they depreciate rapidly, and when you are ready to buy another one, you are no further ahead. Instead, I initially bought junkers, and amazingly, I actually sold some for what I bought them for and more. Later, when I finally had some money, I did buy new, but more because of vanity, and not smart personal finance.

Low interest rates are not a good thing, IMO. Sort of like taking drugs and hope that you don't get addicted.

Being in finance, I'm sure you know that cash is king. When the markets or real estate fall (and they always do), have cash available to take advantage of the low price opportunities. That's one way that I have got ahead.

And don't run with the herd...

[reefermadness]

My previous employer (one of the largest private corporations in Canada) decided to restructure my position and gave me a 30% pay decrease. Is that working for my interest? Lets not get it twisted Corporations work for their won interest and that is to make money. If a side effect is improving your quality of life that is great but believe me when I say that if they could pay you less to make more profit generally they would. We can see this happening in the global economy with outsourcing. Lets not forget the corporations who are responsible for polluting our shared resources (water,air,dirt) and even putting peoples lives at risk. You dont have to look to far to see corporations responsible for the death of inocent people. The bandledash garment factory was just one instance where 1,800 died. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bangladesh-garment-workers-to-get-compensation-from-loblaw-1.2223499 I would say the corporation did not work in favor of those people.

Anyway we are still lucky to live in Canada (for now) and thankfully I didnt stay with my old employer and and actually found a better job. Not everyone is so lucky though as good jobs seem harder to find.

So yes if your lucky corporations can improve your life.....invest in a good one and watch your money grow. But its not so plan and simple as we can leave that statement and say that is that......there is a flip side to that coin.

[Reef Pilot]

should probably mention, we have different investment horizons.

I am still in my wealth accrual phase trying to ensure a retirement, whereas you're already there and have no need for debt.

Yeah, the big advantage you have is you can be aggressive with your investments (just don't be foolish), and can even afford a major mistake or two.

I still remember well the day, I lost more money in a single stock (very bad earnings surprise) than my house was worth at the time. That was painful. But I had it coming, as I was getting far too aggressive with my investing and putting all my eggs in single baskets, because of past successes. Needless to say, I became a lot more conservative (and disciplined) after that and diversified more. Amazingly, though, I still came out ahead that year, despite that big loss. I have had many losses since (not big ones, though), but none have hurt more than that one.

Anyway, I am very much the opposite now, and more of an opportunist if something looks really good. Plus I day trade a bit, just playing momentum. I worked too hard for what I have now, to risk losing it...

[Reef Pilot]

So yes if your lucky corporations can improve your life.....invest in a good one and watch your money grow. But its not so plan and simple as we can leave that statement and say that is that......there is a flip side to that coin.

Yes, there are definitely good and bad corporations, just as there are individuals. And remember corps are just groups of one or more people. The culture is determined mostly by the founders and leaders, and can be very difficult to change. So do your research before you decide where you want to work, it is not all about the money...

I will say, too, that in my career, I worked for two large corporations (multi billion) and one smaller one. The two larger ones were absolutely clean with their ethics and practices (employees were considered as their #1 asset, customers #2), and I was very proud to be a part of them. The smaller one, though, did have a few questionable practices (not illegal) that I did not like, and I did leave them because of that.

[ReefHero]

money enables society

love it or hate it, it is a thing that is inert. It is neither good nor bad. It enables civilizations to advance in complexity for better or worse.

Here's a prize winning book about it, if you seek truth.

Ascent of Money. Ferguson, Niall.

http://www.niallferguson.com/publications/the-ascent-of-money

Personally, I hate it when people talk about money as if it can think and make decisions.....money is nothing more than a possession. It is whatever we (as people) want it to be. Money is only worth what we make it.
To quote the NIN...."money is not one to choose."
We (as society) have made money the highest possession available.....we did that! If money could think then I'm sure it would value itself on par with the value of the paper it is printed on.... In all fairness, would it be wrong for a person to value money in the same regard....I would say no because in a way everyone already does value money differently....some save it, others spend it....
I try not to think about it too much.....sad really, that a piece of paper marked $5 is **** poor but yet the same one with different colours marked $1000 would have people killing each other over. We made it this way and now we live this way.

[ReefHero]

My previous employer (one of the largest private corporations in Canada) decided to restructure my position and gave me a 30% pay decrease. Is that working for my interest? Lets not get it twisted Corporations work for their won interest and that is to make money. If a side effect is improving your quality of life that is great but believe me when I say that if they could pay you less to make more profit generally they would. We can see this happening in the global economy with outsourcing. Lets not forget the corporations who are responsible for polluting our shared resources (water,air,dirt) and even putting peoples lives at risk. You dont have to look to far to see corporations responsible for the death of inocent people. The bandledash garment factory was just one instance where 1,800 died. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bangladesh-garment-workers-to-get-compensation-from-loblaw-1.2223499 I would say the corporation did not work in favor of those people.

Anyway we are still lucky to live in Canada (for now) and thankfully I didnt stay with my old employer and and actually found a better job. Not everyone is so lucky though as good jobs seem harder to find.

So yes if your lucky corporations can improve your life.....invest in a good one and watch your money grow. But its not so plan and simple as we can leave that statement and say that is that......there is a flip side to that coin.

I agree. Very few corporations would sacrifice their company (profit) for their employers. You don't have to look around the globe for this....happens in different degrees worldwide. As far as outsourcing and the profit thing....so many corporations and companies are doing this because they just will not compete and therefore make significantly less profit margin (living conditions considered) that they really have no other option than to go poor....
My brother works as a tool and die tradesman other the last 5 years and has seen **** go down.....then again who hasn't! What's that old saying....the rich get poorer and the poor get richer...? No, wait that can't be right.... ;)

[Reef_Geek]

Yes, there are definitely good and bad corporations, just as there are individuals. And remember corps are just groups of one or more people.

I will say, too, that in my career, I worked for two large corporations (multi billion) and one smaller one. The two larger ones were absolutely clean with their ethics and practices (employees were considered as their #1 asset, customers #2), and I was very proud to be a part of them. The smaller one, though, did have a few questionable practices (not illegal) that I did not like, and I did leave them because of that.

+1

I have worked for private businesses and public companies. With public companies, there is requirement to follow SEC regulations so that they are accountable to shareholders. Everything is subject to routinely scheduled internal & external audits to ensure that checks and balances (business controls) exist to protect compliance, and audits ensures the company is doing what it said it would do. Private companies, on the other hand, are (mostly) only accountable to its owners, and there is no board of directors that second guess the president on behalf of the shareholders. Only when private businesses come into issues with laws... do they then get investigated. This is over simplified... yes. As a company gets bigger and hits certain size thresholds set by regulation, they must then take on more compliance practices.

Given the choice, I like working for public companies, and specifically, those that show strong "corporate social responsibility" (there are entire courses in business schools on this topic)...



Personally, I hate it when people talk about money as if it can think and make decisions.....money is nothing more than a possession. It is whatever we (as people) want it to be. Money is only worth what we make it.
To quote the NIN...."money is not one to choose."
We (as society) have made money the highest possession available.....we did that! If money could think then I'm sure it would value itself on par with the value of the paper it is printed on.... In all fairness, would it be wrong for a person to value money in the same regard....I would say no because in a way everyone already does value money differently....some save it, others spend it....
I try not to think about it too much.....sad really, that a piece of paper marked $5 is **** poor but yet the same one with different colours marked $1000 would have people killing each other over. We made it this way and now we live this way.

This reminds me of a saying. Money doesn't change a person... it exaggerates who they are. It is like all those horror stories of sudden millionaire lotto winners that fall victim to bad temptations. If a person is giving and kind, they will have more of it to give/ a charity to manage. If a person is irresponsible with money then there's more of it to be irresponsible with. If a person likes to save and invest money, then the person has more of it to work with. etc etc



Real estate is generally a good asset (does go up and down), but you have to live somewhere, and rent is for sure wasted. I have bought and sold many homes over the years. Some for less than what I bought them for (80's was a tough time), too. But I did learn that with real estate, you don't get ahead with your sells, but with your buys. It is much easier to get a good buy (with good market research) than a good sell (not up to you, but the buyers). And of course it is all about location, location, location.


This is very good advice. Thanks. I only have my current first home... and I keep looking back, I can't help but keep thinking how lucky I got with the deal that I got, and a lot of it was in timing... looking for that one posting that had been on the market for months, been conceding on the asking price, and facing tenant vacancy and a winter (not realty season) around the corner.




But I do draw the line with borrowing money for a car. I can say that I never did that. Although, to be fair, interest rates were much higher many years ago. Problem with a car, as with boats, LED lights, etc, is they depreciate rapidly, and when you are ready to buy another one, you are no further ahead. Instead, I initially bought junkers, and amazingly, I actually sold some for what I bought them for and more. Later, when I finally had some money, I did buy new, but more because of vanity, and not smart personal finance.





Yup, rates for financing cars wouldn't be this low if it wasn't for the economic downturn. The other thing to watch out for... is the total price of the car. Some deals are 0% or $1000 off... so you have to do the math in time-value of money and figure out if they are just jacking up the price on the 0% deal.

You are right though, cars are depreciating assets. The best deals taught in personal finance books are those cars that are used but only a few years old. The reward is in having a car and no payments, while it still runs. But then again, some times you have to have a nice car. I do have a problem with cars... I am on my forth one in 12 years. Guilty. At the end of the day, it's not about not-enjoying your money, it's about living within our own means. If I made $300K (I wish) a year, it would be within my means to lease two brand new Porsches every 2 years... even if not the most efficient allocation of assets...


And don't run with the herd...


this is one of the best investment advice I ever received... always think of the contrarian perspective.

[Slick Fork]

I think one thing people often overlook, is the power of consumers and the role they play in influencing the decision of corporations.

As an example, how often do people rush out and buy the cheap, made in china crap instead of something built locally? Than they wonder why North American manufacturing outsources and disappears and I don't think a lot of the social justice types really understand the cause and effect of it.

I know a person who is extraordinarily vocal about the need for higher wages for workers and the tragedy of corporate greed which outsources jobs. Yet this person shops at Wal-Mart and doesn't consider where the goods they purchase come from. When I asked why, they simply responded they were tired of paying "too much". They had no answer when asked why corporations should pay their workers more when people won't pay for North American made products.

It's easy to blame big business, but if they could make profits selling Canadian made items to Canadians, jobs wouldn't be outsourced.

[Slick Fork]

Also wanted to mention that it's really nice that a topic that could be so divisive has NOT degenerated into a name calling fest and that everyone is, instead, having a thoughtful civilised discussion.

Which I believe was the goal of the OP in the first place!

[mike31154]

There's a ski run at Revelstoke Mountain Resort named 'Kill The Banker'. It's under the main gondola lift going up the mountain & I've often seen the odd track on it, but seldom actually see a breathing human being coming down. I like that run, but I'm not a banker, so I'll pass.

[jorjef]

Do any of you guys have a solar powered laser beam guitar?

[Aquattro]

Also wanted to mention that it's really nice that a topic that could be so divisive has NOT degenerated into a name calling fest and that everyone is, instead, having a thoughtful civilized discussion.



Surprised the he11 out of me!! :razz:

[MitchM]

:smile:

There's a saying that when you take out a $500 thousand loan, it is your problem. If you take out a $500 million loan it is the bank's problem.

I think where this global money printing issue is going to wind up is going to be a balance between those that hold the money - (individuals, corporations or countries) - and how much social unrest they are willing (or forced) to endure.
There have been a number of governments that have fallen over this issue already and limits placed on bank withdrawals in order to prevent bank runs.
The country of Cyprus recently prevented a run on their banks.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/21/cyprus-prevent-run-banks-crisis
Imagine having a savings account of more than 100,000 Euros suddenly worth 40% less the next day!
People, corporations or countries that have loaned out money in order to benefit themselves in increased production and thereby revenue for themselves are simply going to have to forgive those loans.
The level of social unrest will determine how much they will have to forgive.
The level of social unrest is the unpredictable part.

What is Greece's youth unemployment rate now, > 55%? How long do you think unemployed youth are going to be quiet for, before they enact change and elect in a government that promises them whatever it takes to get into power?
Governments and banks are shifting money around and enacting laws in order to minimize their losses right now.
I think this will take a number of years to play out, but I don't think there is any other outcome possible.

...and RuGlu6, you may just be thankful one day that you DO have to "work for the man", when your taxes are paying for the manpower it takes to protect whatever is it that you presently own.:smile:

We live in a very safe country. I am thankful for that.

[RuGlu6]

Wasn't on here for a while, thanks for keeping this going, appreciate that.

Talking about debt and its ceiling, lets ask ourselves a simple question...

Why money is being borrowed from the private banksters if Government has a right to print it and use it with out any interest?
Who is in control?
.

[Madreefer]

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/Serenity-Now.jpg (http://s255.photobucket.com/user/gulflube/media/Serenity-Now.jpg.html)

[Mandosh]

Wasn't on here for a while, thanks for keeping this going, appreciate that.

Talking about debt and its ceiling, lets ask ourselves a simple question...

Why money is being borrowed from the private banksters if Government has a right to print it and use it with out any interest?
Who is in control?
.

Not everything is a conspiracy. Simple answer:

Supply, demand, and inflation. If more money is added to circulation (i.e. the government prints more money) the prices of goods will rise to a point that we are no better off, and more than likely worse, financially than before. In short, printing more money devalues it.


The way the global market works is the same on a small scale. For example, every time money is "printed" it increases the total supply available in the market. Logically, some of that money will be used and purchasing of goods will increase. Increased purchasing will equal increased demand. In order to keep up with demand, retailers will either have to raise prices to reduce the number of purchases and avoid running out of stock, or bring in more stock. Same concept applies to suppliers, if retailers order more they have to increase production or raise prices to reduce demand. To increase production in a system with limits (like real life) logically you have to increase inputs (e.g. capital and work hours), this means increased costs and, likely, increased wages to encourage the increased work. If wages and costs go up, then price also has to go up. Yes we would have more money, but it would take more of that money to purchase the goods we need.

One more thing,

http://images.wikia.com/dragonball/images/6/64/Implied-facepalm1.jpg

[RuGlu6]

Here is a presentation of the Guy that i quoted at the beginning of this post.
Brilliant person IMO.

If first 5 minutes of the video does not make sense maybe it is not for you.

But I enjoy this tremendously
Michael Tellinger – Ancient Technology & UBUNTU

http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/michael-tellinger-ancient-technology-ubuntu/
.

[jorjef]

Is Rob Ford in the video?

[RuGlu6]

George Carlin on Banksters

http://americankabuki.blogspot.ca/2013/11/george-carlin-on-banksters.html

[kien]

I use UBUNTU all the time at work and at home. It's a great OS.

[RuGlu6]

I use UBUNTU all the time at work and at home. It's a great OS.

I love the meaning behind the word ubuntu.
if everyone would be nice to each other tomorrow morning, we will be living in the much better world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28philosophy%29


Ubuntu (/uːˈbʊntuː/ oo-BUUN-too; Zulu/Xhosa pronunciation: [ùɓúntʼú]) is a Nguni Bantu term (literally, "human-ness"") roughly translating to "human kindness"; in Southern Africa (South Africa and Zimbabwe), it has come to be used as a term for a kind of humanist philosophy, ethic or ideology, also known as Ubuntuism or Hunhuism (the latter after the corresponding Shona term) propagated in the Africanization (transition to majority rule) process of these countries during the 1980s and 1990s.

Since the transition to democracy in South Africa with the Nelson Mandela presidency in 1994, the term has become more widely known outside of Southern Africa, notably popularized to English language readers by Desmond Tutu (1999).