Glass Cardinal - Problems?

[GoFish]

I have 3 Glass Cardinals. They school together, eat together and have perhaps problems together?

Fins:
1. pieces of their fins go missing... then grow back
2. pieces of their fins go white... then it disappears
3. Pieces of their fins look like they're eroding... then grow back
4. the soft tissue between the tiny bones in their fins separates... then they grow back together

Skin:
1. sometimes white fleshy sores appear on their sides... then next week they're healed and fine

And finally, one of them in particular over the last month has developed a LARGE CHIN. The first time it happened for 3 days, then again it happend for 4 days. During this large chin phase it doesn't eat, it chases food like its going to eat it but then just watches it fall??? The other 2 eat just fine.

An ideas or advice? Discuss? I keep thinking about posting as i haven't found any info searching

[Myka]

What size tank are they in? How long have you had them? I suspect you have 2 males and 1 female, or possibly 3 males and the damage is from them fighting.

[Borderjumper]

I have 3 Glass Cardinals. They school together, eat together and have perhaps problems together?

Fins:
1. pieces of their fins go missing... then grow back
2. pieces of their fins go white... then it disappears
3. Pieces of their fins look like they're eroding... then grow back
4. the soft tissue between the tiny bones in their fins separates... then they grow back together

Skin:
1. sometimes white fleshy sores appear on their sides... then next week they're healed and fine

And finally, one of them in particular over the last month has developed a LARGE CHIN. The first time it happened for 3 days, then again it happend for 4 days. During this large chin phase it doesn't eat, it chases food like its going to eat it but then just watches it fall??? The other 2 eat just fine.

An ideas or advice? Discuss? I keep thinking about posting as i haven't found any info searching

Male holding eggs.

[GoFish]

Tank is 46 gallons. 1 of them was bought about 8 months ago and then the other 2 were picked up about 4 months ago. The 2 more recent additions stay very close to each other and the third seems like a 3rd wheel. Damage from fins could be from fighting i guess, though I've never seen any aggressive behavior by any of them. I was mainly concerned about a disease that I should be worried about. The Glass Cardinals at j+l show the same random fin damage as mine, maybe just how they are

Just watched a YouTube video of a Banggai make holding eggs in its mouth, it looks just like that!

If there wasn't a Scribbled Rabbitfish in the the tank then babies would probably survive for a little more than 10 seconds, but he's a pig and eats everything including poop...

[albert_dao]

They're also prone to picking up parasites during the capture and transportation from Asia to us. Cheapo fish are handled as such, which does a lot to explain why "hardy" fish like these and canary wrasses tend to do so poorly.

[Myka]

Tank is 46 gallons. 1 of them was bought about 8 months ago and then the other 2 were picked up about 4 months ago. The 2 more recent additions stay very close to each other and the third seems like a 3rd wheel. Damage from fins could be from fighting i guess, though I've never seen any aggressive behavior by any of them. I was mainly concerned about a disease that I should be worried about. The Glass Cardinals at j+l show the same random fin damage as mine, maybe just how they are

Just watched a YouTube video of a Banggai make holding eggs in its mouth, it looks just like that!

Could you take a pic? Maybe there is a pair and they are breeding. There is often a small amount of fin damage with a breeding pair. It doesn't sound like a disease to me.

If there wasn't a Scribbled Rabbitfish in the the tank then babies would probably survive for a little more than 10 seconds, but he's a pig and eats everything including poop...

The Scribbled Rabbitfish is a poor choice for a 46-gallon aquarium. This fish gets to be 9-11" and most Rabbitfish grow fairly quickly. This fish needs to be in a tank 4x the size of yours. How big is it now?

[naesco]

Once you have damage the opportunity for fungal and bacterial attacks sharply increases.
treat your fish in a qt.

At the same time return the rabbit fish to the LFS or sell it online, I agree that it is far to big for a very small tank like yours.

May I suggest that you research your fish BEFORE YOU BUY. Cardinals need a peaceful aquarium. Rabbit fish wrasse and tangs are active and are not suitable unless you have a very large tank.

[albert_dao]

The Scribbled Rabbitfish is a poor choice for a 46-gallon aquarium. This fish gets to be 9-11" and most Rabbitfish grow fairly quickly.

Except when they don't...

I've had a pair of doliatus for three years. They're still 4".

Paul has had a blonde naso in a 280 for the better part of a year now. He's still 7". He was living in a 120 for two and a half years prior to that.

MOST fish grow to the size of their tank. Tangs and rabbitfish are inclusive rather than exclusive to this rule. There are exceptions to like Elasmobranchs, remoras and other pelagic species.

The rabbitfish would most assuredly want a larger tank, but the idea that it will grow to its full adult size (and quickly at that) doesn't have a lot of overlap with reality. When's the last time you saw a 9" powder blue tang? Or a 10" foxface? I've seen plenty of 3-5 year old fish that are still sitting at a very manageable 4-6". If it it hasn't gotten to its adult size in that time frame, it probably isn't going to... Ever.

Anyway, back on topic - cardinals are delicate and easily beaten up. But I doubt that, unless you have seen it with your own eyes, that its due to the efforts of the ginormous and infamously vicious rabbitfish.

[naesco]

Except when they don't...

I've had a pair of doliatus for three years. They're still 4".

Paul has had a blonde naso in a 280 for the better part of a year now. He's still 7". He was living in a 120 for two and a half years prior to that.

MOST fish grow to the size of their tank. Tangs and rabbitfish are inclusive rather than exclusive to this rule. There are exceptions to like Elasmobranchs, remoras and other pelagic species.

The rabbitfish would most assuredly want a larger tank, but the idea that it will grow to its full adult size (and quickly at that) doesn't have a lot of overlap with reality. When's the last time you saw a 9" powder blue tang? Or a 10" foxface? I've seen plenty of 3-5 year old fish that are still sitting at a very manageable 4-6". If it it hasn't gotten to its adult size in that time frame, it probably isn't going to... Ever.

Anyway, back on topic - cardinals are delicate and easily beaten up. But I doubt that, unless you have seen it with your own eyes, that its due to the efforts of the ginormous and infamously vicious rabbitfish.

You are dead wrong.
Yes a tang will not grow to its adult size in a 45 gallon tank. The reasons are two (at least)

1.You stunt the fish which means that you cause it stress which is multiplied if there are other fish in the the tank. It is our responsibility as hobbyists to provide optimum conditions for the fish that we choose to remove from the ocean. We can provide a suitable sized tank.
2. You cannot reasonably feed a tang in a 45 gallon tank as you would pollute it with ammonia far too quickly. What some keepers of SPC and other fragile coral do is cut back on the food which reduces the ammonia and provides minimum food for the fish. That is the second reason they do not grow.

I might add that I am really disappointed. We have a new reefer here who unknowingly is making the typical mistakes. Instead of confirming Myka's adivice which you know is right, you post this nonsense which makes new reefers think that it is ok to put tangs and rabbitfish in 45 gallon tanks.
You know Myka is right so let the OP know you agree with her.

[albert_dao]

.... Man, you are like some sorta Captain Planet of the aquarium or something.

Edit: I'm a little tied up here, but expect a nice long retort in a few hours.

[Rice Reef]

You are dead wrong.
Yes a tang will not grow to its adult size in a 45 gallon tank. The reasons are two (at least)

I might add that I am really disappointed. We have a new reefer here who unknowingly is making the typical mistakes. Instead of confirming Myka's adivice which you know is right, you post this nonsense which makes new reefers think that it is ok to put tangs and rabbitfish in 45 gallon tanks.
You know Myka is right so let the OP know you agree with her.

I would like to apologize to the OP for having to read his comments. Most people on Can Reef do not throw their authoritarian attitudes around here and are infact, very friendly and helpful.

This is a hobby and we are all here to inform and learn but when someone throws their opinion out in such a bullish manner I do not tolerate it regardless who is right and who is wrong. Something like this could have been discussed privately and if you are going to make it public at least be considerate of others.

Reading this makes me sick and it really takes the fun and interest out of the hobby. You are probably right but to call someone out like that in a public is just down right mean.

[Myka]

MOST fish grow to the size of their tank. Tangs and rabbitfish are inclusive rather than exclusive to this rule. There are exceptions to like Elasmobranchs, remoras and other pelagic species.

Please do some research on the impact that stunted growth has on lifespan. You will have to hunt around, the information is mostly hidden in scholarly articles and most of the articles refer to freshwater fish which information may or may not also be true for saltwater fish. The trouble is, there aren't really any studies or published articles out there directly relating to this question, more that they have comments within their studies. Good luck!

[albert_dao]

Please do some research on the impact that stunted growth has on lifespan. You will have to hunt around, the information is mostly hidden in scholarly articles and most of the articles refer to freshwater fish which information may or may not also be true for saltwater fish. The trouble is, there aren't really any studies or published articles out there directly relating to this question, more that they have comments within their studies. Good luck!

You realize that fish like tangs and angels, etc, live for something on the order of 25 years in captivity right? This is well beyond their wild lifespan. And honestly, what the hell is the difference between my fish living for ten years and 25 years? My dog doesn't even live that long. I am not morally obligated to keep them alive for the entire "possible" duration of their lifespan no more than I am morally obligated to leave them in the ocean.

Everyone keeps on saying "yah, those are freshwater studies done on growth limiting hormones, mostly in tilapia". Which is besides the point given that there is enough observable data out there that I would be more than happy get get behind my statement -- Again, how many dinner plate sized powder blues/yellow tangs are sitting in people's tanks?

[albert_dao]

You are dead wrong.
Yes a tang will not grow to its adult size in a 45 gallon tank. The reasons are two (at least)

1.You stunt the fish which means that you cause it stress which is multiplied if there are other fish in the the tank. It is our responsibility as hobbyists to provide optimum conditions for the fish that we choose to remove from the ocean. We can provide a suitable sized tank.
2. You cannot reasonably feed a tang in a 45 gallon tank as you would pollute it with ammonia far too quickly. What some keepers of SPC and other fragile coral do is cut back on the food which reduces the ammonia and provides minimum food for the fish. That is the second reason they do not grow.

I might add that I am really disappointed. We have a new reefer here who unknowingly is making the typical mistakes. Instead of confirming Myka's adivice which you know is right, you post this nonsense which makes new reefers think that it is ok to put tangs and rabbitfish in 45 gallon tanks.
You know Myka is right so let the OP know you agree with her.


I'm just going to call you out on this crap right now -- This is some sort of liberal arts project for you or something. I mean, it must be. No one can take such a profusely impractical stance on such hypocritical context and believe in it without some degree of trolling.

[Myka]

I am not morally obligated to keep them alive for the entire "possible" duration of their lifespan no more than I am morally obligated to leave them in the ocean.

Again, how many dinner plate sized powder blues/yellow tangs are sitting in people's tanks?

Oh you're very right, most people don't keep them alive long enough for them to be "dinner plate-sized". :wink:

I didn't say anything about moral obligation.

[albert_dao]

Oh you're very right, most people don't keep them alive long enough for them to be "dinner plate-sized". :wink:

I didn't say anything about moral obligation.

You know, this is my damn point. And it has nothing to do with small tanks.

[Coralgurl]

I have 3 Glass Cardinals. They school together, eat together and have perhaps problems together?

Fins:
1. pieces of their fins go missing... then grow back
2. pieces of their fins go white... then it disappears
3. Pieces of their fins look like they're eroding... then grow back
4. the soft tissue between the tiny bones in their fins separates... then they grow back together

Skin:
1. sometimes white fleshy sores appear on their sides... then next week they're healed and fine

And finally, one of them in particular over the last month has developed a LARGE CHIN. The first time it happened for 3 days, then again it happend for 4 days. During this large chin phase it doesn't eat, it chases food like its going to eat it but then just watches it fall??? The other 2 eat just fine.

An ideas or advice? Discuss? I keep thinking about posting as i haven't found any info searching

And now back to the ops original question regarding his cardinal fish......not to be rude about the discussion on fish and tank size, but holy hijacking a thread!

[GoFish]

What happened here?! i go fishing for the day and now i need to sell my Rabbitfish?! Lol

Here are a few pics of the CARDINALS this post is supposed to be about :)

June 30th
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/42/wq8o.jpg

Sept 15th (today) damage healed...
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/46/82dr.jpg

Sept 15th (today) damage healed...
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/543/2t9k.jpg

[GoFish]

And seeing as how more interest has been given to "Scribbles" (Rabbitfish) here's a pic too.
If he could talk I'm sure he'd be stoked people are talking about him...the supermodel of my tank... (and a PHOTOBOMBER!)
Have had him for 8 months, Started out 2.5" long, and is now a whopping 3" long... If he gets too big for the tank i'll either sell him or buy a bigger tank, no big deal, he says thanks for the concern!

http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/163/dwe6.jpg

[naesco]

I would like to apologize to the OP for having to read his comments. Most people on Can Reef do not throw their authoritarian attitudes around here and are infact, very friendly and helpful.

This is a hobby and we are all here to inform and learn but when someone throws their opinion out in such a bullish manner I do not tolerate it regardless who is right and who is wrong. Something like this could have been discussed privately and if you are going to make it public at least be considerate of others.

Reading this makes me sick and it really takes the fun and interest out of the hobby. You are probably right but to call someone out like that in a public is just down right mean.

Please read my post in reply to the OP, and, you are right in hindsight I should have sent a PM to Albert asking him to 'clarify' his post rather than posting.

[GoFish]

Thanks to Rice Reef for standing up for me :)
I've been around since the dawn of internet forums and have left many for the reason of off topic posts. If you have something off topic to say than go start your own topic... Considering the first mention of the the Rabbitfish was from Myka, it's all good. I really appreciated his "Guide to calcium" it taught me a lot! My corals and knowledge will be forever grateful

[GoFish]

The large chin on one of them is back, heres a pic in case anyone wondered...
The holding babies in its mouth makes some sense but not sure about 3 times in 1 month? It ate supper last night but wont eat tonight since developing the chin

Kinda hard to see with the background color but its the one on the bottom
http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/842/yyn3.jpg