Converting a durso to Bean Animal

[asylumdown]

Just wondering if this is possible or if anyone has done it? I'm trying to figure out if a modified version is possible, as I would be converting my standard internal overflow boxes (the holes are on the bottom of the tank). My sump design is notorious for allowing microbubbles back in to the display, which forces me to run filter socks to catch them, and so far I haven't found a filter sock that a) catches all the bubbles while b) doesn't start overflowing after 24 hours. I hate changing filter socks every single day.

I've got two internal overflow boxes, one on either end of the tank. Each box has two holes in it, so I've technically got enough holes for a bean-animal. I obviously don't have a coast to coast, but by my reckoning I could make it work by having one shorter standpipe that was throttled until it was a slightly overdriven full siphon, a second slightly taller standpipe that took up the tiny amount of excess that the throttled full siphon couldn't handle, and a third, even taller standpipe that functions as an emergency drain.

My main question would be if this would be a good idea, and where I should put the drains relative to each other. If I put both the siphon drain and the trickle drain in the same overflow box, the other overflow box would become a deadzone, and I'd lose 50% of the surface skimming capacity of my tank, but if I put the full siphon and the trickle drain on opposite ends of the tank, I'm not sure what effect forcing the water from one drain to travel the entire length of my tank to get to the skimmer chamber would have on the system. Will it cause noise if the trickle drain has a 90 degree bend in it?

Also, I need to be able to temporarily divert the flow of both drains to another sump chamber using a gate valve. I presently have all 2 inch plumbing, which takes up a ton of above sump cabinet space so both my overflows are plumbed together in to a single outlet pipe in to the sump, with a single gate valve that I use when I need to temporarily divert flow. I wouldn't be able to do this with a bean-animal, so would I be able to reduce my pipe diameter to accommodate two completely separate runs of pipe? My return pump pushes between 3000-3300gph.

[spit.fire]

Easier to go herbie

[asylumdown]

This tank started out with a Herbie. Made the fatal error of not realizing that you can't plumb two herbie overflows together in to a single outlet. The instability it created in the return chamber of my sump was wreaking havoc on my ATO, and was generally awful to deal with so I converted to a durso. Still not in love with the idea of a Herbie on a tank with dual overflows because of their potential to mess with the water level in the return chamber and having to tune two of them. The way I understand the BeanAnimal overflow, the water level in your return chamber will be constant so long as there is water coming down the trickle pipe.

Also, I'm thinking that for the bean animal when I need to divert water flow, I'll be able to simply close off the full siphon down pipe and only divert the trickle pipe. The trickle pipe will become a temporary durso.

[nerdz]

Interesting....

Not sure if you already mentioned it but will the tank be empty when you do the conversion?

Do you have any pictures of the configuration of piping to the sump?

Would it be possible to drill the top backside of the tank for a couple of bulkheads?

the piping could definitely be smaller for the full siphon... 1" does around 1500 l believe.

you would likely run into noise issues with the trickle pipes going around 90 degree elbows. they are normally silent because of small layer of water is stuck to the wall with the center of the pipe airspace, this would probably become turbulent at the elbow...

[asylumdown]

hmmm, the tank would not be empty while doing this, just the overflow boxes. I emptied them to convert from a herbie to a durso and the inhabitants didn't seem to mind with just the flow from the Vortech's.

Unfortunately it will not be possible to drill the glass, the tank is built in to a wall (two sided), so the tank is exactly as wide as it can be, there's no leeway or access on either end.

Here's the pics from when the plumbing was being built, they're not complete, but you get the idea:

South end - before the union and gate valve was installed
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/d86e3327.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/d86e3327.jpg.html)

North end - before the union and gate valve was installed
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/8f7b31df.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/8f7b31df.jpg.html)

Whole cabinet, before the union and gate valve was installed
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/6556ac77.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/6556ac77.jpg.html)

the union and gate valve. It's designed so that when that lever is to the right, water flows in to the skimmer chamber and does a big U through the whole sump, when the lever is turned to the left, water exits directly in to the bubble trap right before the return chamber, bypassing 3 of 4 of the sump chambers. This wreaked HAVOC with the herbies, having them plumbed together like that just isn't possible if you want a stable system. If I had the trickle drain be on the right, and the full siphon drain on the left, the water in the trickle drain wouldn't need to make a 90 degree turn, but the full siphon would (though I doubt that would affect anything)
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/5f60eb44.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/5f60eb44.jpg.html)

[nerdz]

Thanks for posting info/pics. Sorry, I've been short on time.

Is one of your overflows drilled holes a straight shot to the desireed sump chamber? If, so maybe that could be your trickle line? Just worried it might get loud with a multi-directional path.

Could you run a full siphon,(throttled with gates), in each overflow? Then you would have 50/50 surface skimming. The 3rd remaining hole closed to sump chamber could be trickle line that converts to full siphon in an emergency. 4th and final hole would be slightly higher emergency standpipe.

Im no tank wizard and have never delt with tank and flow rates as big as yours...


Have tried posting on bean animal thread on RC? a lot of experience there especially with larger set ups

[FishyFishy!]

Hey Adam,

So in each overflow, do you have two holes drilled? Or three?

If you only have two holes per overflow, a bean animal no matter how modified, will not work with your current setup.

[Skimmerking]

in the first pic where the TEE is couldnt you, bring that pipe lower from the cabinet then have that TEE turned around like a actual Durso. and then have it carry on to the sump area. or have both pipes connect into a larger TEE. i hope this make sense.

[Seriak]

I would have the full siphon with an emergency on one end and a trickle with an emergency on the other. Not sure why this wouldn't work. For my trickle I essentially made it a durso for quiet operation.

You would not be able to tie the full siphon into the trickle, but when you needed to divert the water you could open the full siphon all the way so the trickle was no longer in use and then divert the full siphon where you need it to go. However, I am not sure if it would be a full siphon at that point unless your diverted pipe was also under water at the destination point. Can't quite picture this one in my head yet.

[FishyFishy!]

I would have the full siphon with an emergency on one end and a trickle with an emergency on the other. Not sure why this wouldn't work. For my trickle I essentially made it a durso for quiet operation.

You would not be able to tie the full siphon into the trickle, but when you needed to divert the water you could open the full siphon all the way so the trickle was no longer in use and then divert the full siphon where you need it to go. However, I am not sure if it would be a full siphon at that point unless your diverted pipe was also under water at the destination point. Can't quite picture this one in my head yet.

I think that the flow in the 'trickle' overflow would be so minimal that it would create a dead zone. It would be nothing but a nirate factory over time. Mind you, there are ways around that I guess (keeping the water moving/circulating), but they are more of a PITA than anything else.

The most probable scenario here would be to make two durso's with seperate drain plumbing. Same could go for Herbies, it would just be a little harder to fine tune. Get rid of the 2-into-1 valve there, and just make two different drain pipes into the sump.

[Seriak]

I think that the flow in the 'trickle' overflow would be so minimal that it would create a dead zone. It would be nothing but a nirate factory over time. Mind you, there are ways around that I guess (keeping the water moving/circulating), but they are more of a PITA than anything else.

The most probable scenario here would be to make two durso's with seperate drain plumbing. Same could go for Herbies, it would just be a little harder to fine tune. Get rid of the 2-into-1 valve there, and just make two different drain pipes into the sump.

That's an interesting thought. I thought all Bean Animals had a trickle overflow (Mine does) Has there been any reports on RC on nitrate buildup based on this? How would nitrates build up in the pipe? Mine has a constant, but very minimal flow going down the trickle pipe.

I still think you could do it my way. :)

[mseepman]

My Bean Animal has a trickle and you would be surprised how much flow comes down the trickle. The key is that it all comes down the sides...that can be a lot (in my case it is) and yet everything is safe and dead silent. It even falls an entire floor for me. I think the above idea would be the best way to go. Full and emerg on one end, trickle and emerg on the other.
Obviously the trickle isn't going to do a lot to surface skim, but it can be greater than you think. What size are the holes?

[FishyFishy!]

Am I totally out to lunch thinking that normal internal overflows (top to bottom) with two holes shouldn't be used as a beananimal?

I just think that with 24"-ish height of the overflow, and very minimal flow going into the overflow itself, there would be detritus buildup at the bottom of the overflow.

Realistically all three pipes should be in the same overflow.

[FishyFishy!]

That's an interesting thought. I thought all Bean Animals had a trickle overflow (Mine does)


Of course all of the bean animal setups have trickles... but in the same overflow! (I'm sure you only have one overflow with 3 pipes in it)

[Seriak]

Of course all of the bean animal setups have trickles... but in the same overflow! (I'm sure you only have one overflow with 3 pipes in it)

You would be correct. If most of the flow was then going down the full siphon side, there would be minimal turnover on the trickle side. I am not sure if this would cause enough of a problem that nitrates would buildup as it would still surface skim just at a really slow rate. I would be interested to see this in action.

So what if you put the trickle in the same side as the siphon and essentially only surface skim from one side and raise the overflow height in the other side a bit and turn it into an emergency side or

Have two full siphons with trickles and forget the emergency. Would also have to forget about combining any pipes below as full siphons cannot be connected to anything else.

This is why I hate multiple overflows. I prefer one big external.

[nerdz]

I think that the flow in the 'trickle' overflow would be so minimal that it would create a dead zone. It would be nothing but a nirate factory over time. Mind you, there are ways around that I guess (keeping the water moving/circulating), but they are more of a PITA than anything else.

The most probable scenario here would be to make two durso's with seperate drain plumbing. Same could go for Herbies, it would just be a little harder to fine tune. Get rid of the 2-into-1 valve there, and just make two different drain pipes into the sump.

If you made each overflow have a full siphon there would be no detritus buildup and full surface skimming. they could have strainers and be at bottom of overflow, (no stand pipe). there would be good water turnover and any detritus would end up in the sump/skimmer.

if the return pump ever failed you would only need enough volume in the sump to handle the volume of the overflows

[asylumdown]

Thanks for the responses guys!

To answer the main questions - yes, I only have two holes per overflow, and one of them is dedicated for the return line back to the tank, so only three holes to play with getting water in to the sump. I might be able to re-jig the return line and run it up the side of the tank in the joist space in the wall, but I'm not confident I can do that with the amount of access I have in there now.

And I'm not really thrilled with the idea of just separating the pipes to have two separate dursos, as it is now it works just fine for what I need it for, the problem is the mice-bubbles durso's produce. The water in my sump travels in a giant U, it enters and exits the sump on the same side. I didn't realize when I designed it that for a small amount of the water (and thus bubbles), they're able to "turn the corner" between the entrance and exit really tightly which doesn't give the micro-bubbles enough time to float to the surface. Hence the filter socks that I have to change every 24 hours.

I also don't think I'd be OK with going back to a Herbie - in principal they work fine, but I've got a super sized auto-top off pump to bring water all the way up from my basement, and a smaller-than-it-should-be return chamber, so the water level in the return chamber fluctuates a little bit on it's own anyway. My experience with the Herbies if they're not tuned properly is that can lead to a gradual over-filling of the display tank.

I hadn't really thought about the amount of build up that would happen in the trickle only overflow.... hmmmmm. Oh for the power of foresight! Changing the plumbing on this beast is not going to be a small job, perhaps I'll just live with what I've got if the general consensus is that an bean-animal style would be sub-optimal in this arrangement.

[sphelps]

If it was me I'd run the return separate (not through the overflow) allowing the 4 holes to be used for the drain system and realistically better options for the return as well.

The four drains setup as follows:

The smaller hole from each overflow, tee together then to a single gate valve, from there to desired sump section, this would be the primary drain. This primary drain will be the full siphon, so extend a pipe in the overflow towards the surface as needed to prevent the overflow from draining completely during shut down. Just don't make it too close to the surface otherwise you'll get a vortex and introduce air into the drain. The single gate valve will actually allow better constant control over two separate valves as the flow rate to each overflow may not be constant but the overall flow rate will be. Hence with two gate valves, one for each overflow, you'll constantly be fighting with them to reach equilibrium only to discover it's not possible.

The two large holes again can be tee together to the desired sump section, or they can be maintained separately. Use standard durso standpipes for each hole, setup just slightly above the desired overflow water level or at the level they will receive a slight trickle at optimal overflow level.

Adjust gate valve so the dursos receive a little water for best results, it will allow more freedom and less constant tinkering. The result is a cross between a herbie and a bean animal, after all when it comes down to it the bean is just a herbie with an extra standpipe, really the same concept. The advantage here is both overflow boxes will get used so no dead zones, two dursos act act as back up which should handle full flow during primary clog. Using actual durso standpipes rather than straight pipes for back up allows the ability to send some flow down them without major noise issues and if the flow path changes some how there is extra freedom to prevent the need for adjustment.

[gregzz4]

My thinking is ...

There's no way you could ever incorporate a Bean Animal into your setup as you have 2 boxes, and the original design is based on the amount of water in just 1 box

Is there any way you can redo the drain plumbing so the 2 'main drains' each go direct to the sump, and still have the 4th hole for an emerg ?
This would save you redoing your return line
I know it'll be a dialling nightmare, but once balanced, it shouldn't need much tuning

Then you could put 'high level' floats in your boxes to shut off your return pump in the event your emerg is beyond it's 'safe' level

I know mine is not the same setup, but I have a float a bit above my Herbie emerg so it shuts the pump down before the trim can get wet
And the float is never wet, so it should last forever

I hope some of this helps

[mark]

Been running a Herbie trouble free with dual overflows and float valve ATO for about 3 years now without any problems.

One chamber is my primary, other the emergency where I flow a trickle. No microbubbles even at about 1000gph and ATO keeps level in the sump to about 1/8".

To convert from the twin Dursos basically only needed to remove them from the standpipes they were on, add the gate valve and some playing with a sump baffle and drain line length in my fuge.

Just saying Herbie could work.