Tank EULOGY from a beginner

[geweagle]

Hello all,

I thought I would share my experiences to date, which have been far from good and frustratating.

Lots of dollars spent
Lost some lovely fish, yellow tang, bicoloured angel, and checkered butterfly

Far from over and very frustrated. If things do not improved I may give up on salt water.

To start a bit of introduction. I am far from new to keeping fish. I have had many fresh water fish for many years with great success. I decided to change to salt water because of the wonderful diversity and rich colours. My family have alway enjoyed viewing a good salt water tank. I was told that the hobby has improved dramatically.

So I retired my fresh water system and moved to salt. An 80 gal bow faced tank. $$$$$ later now with a HOB skimmer, live rock and sand to start. Cleaned the tank with vingear and rinsed well before I put anything in. A shop provided me with their salt water for the first fill to save me some issues with cycling the tank.

Even so I set the tank up with live rock and sand and left it for a few weeks before getting any livestock. Started with custodians and a couple clowns because they are very tough little fish. Everything was great! So I went a little further.

Then the bad stuff started. I seemed to get all the bad stuff. First it was some Aiptasis. Got a couple pepperment shrimp. They cleaned it up except one big one which I got with a shot of vingear. Problem solved. Not bad I thought.

So everything looked good so I got some more fish. I started to do water changes on a regular bases (5-10 gal) every few days. I do not have a RO/DI system (more $$$$$) so I used tap. Still not to bad, I thought, at least for fish.

Talked and read a lot and found I needed more light. I was only using a standard 4ft fluorescent. So $$$$ later and I bought an Evergrow fixture. May not be top of the line but not bad, and great programming for day cycle. Spectral range was OK. So OK and moved forward.

SO now again tank looked great and I have a yellow tang and a bicoloured angel. Also got a green star palp which is suppose to be very tough. No coral yet. I was warned to wait for a while, becasue phosphate may be high.

They were fine so I bought a checkered butterfly fish.

Little while later (like 1 week) I got a green bubble anenome for the clowns. They did not like him and so never associated. Anemone kept moving in the tank. Then one night it got into the skimmer intake. I had to extract it, but of course it was hurt. Put it in a dark cave spot so he would heal. Tang started to pick at it. Next thing the tang is belly up on the sand. Good bye to the tang. And the anemone did end up dieing too.

Checked the Phosphate, ammmonia, nitrite, and nitrates because everyone told me too. Phosphate was suoppose to be bad for corals that I wanted later and may lead to algae. Nitrates did not seem to be a problem other than maybe alage. Of course phosphate was high (almost 2 ppm). everything else seem to be near zero. Tap water was 0.1ppm. So I started more frequent water changes. Nothing was happening. So I put a hang on the back flow through filter and got Phos-X (suggested by a shop). Based on the directions added the necessary amount and started to see phosphate drop. But only down to just under 1.0 ppm. So replaced the phos-X with new and added more. Got it down to 0.5 ppm. After a whole bag (more $$$) and more water changes the phosphate would not drop more. Shops said it is leaching from the live rock. I did not have enough fish or feeding too much to be a big contribution.

Then more trouble. That horrible red algae hair started growing on everything. Cleaned and cleaned but got worse and could not get phosphate down. I was told I need to be at lest below 0.2 ppm PO4. Nitrates were low. And to drop the photo period which I did.

So what now? more reading!! And went to another well reviewed shop in Vancouver. Yup I live in Edm (more $$$) and talked about where I was. Got a phosphate reactor, granular iron oxide, a sugar? polymer (for nitrate), and Lanthanum chloride. ($$$) Thought great now I have some tools to get the phosphate down and get rid of the red mess.

Dosed as the direction with lanthanum chloride, and set up the PO4 reactor with half the suggested granular iron oxide. Everything looked great the next day the phosphates were down to 0.2 ppm. Another day dose of lanthanum chloride and down to 0.1 ppm. So I stopped that and let the reactor do its work. It held the phosphates but not dropping so I added a little more iron oxide and got the sugar polymer going in the skimmer as suggested. Phosphates droped to around 0.05ppm. I thought great now the tank should clean up and maybe I can get into corals. So I stopped water changes. A few days later I went out to look for some leather corals and maybe another tang.

Also notice I was a little low on salinity at 28 ppt, so I raised it to 30 ppt. Did not want to go to high to fast. I was told it should be at 35 ppt.

Then trouble again. The green star palp were closed up almost disappeared. What happened? They are so tough everyone said! Then I could not find the bi-coloured angel. Well after a lot of looking I found the bones. So sad. So I got worried and started to change the water again frequently, but kept at 30 ppt. Phospahtes remained at <0.1 ppm. The green star palp started to show up a little. Went out and bought another yellow tang. The phosphates remained at <0.1 ppm and the red alge was going away. Iron oxide reactor still running but no new iron oxide added. I was told it should be good for several months.

Well last night the checkered Butterfly fish died! The green star palp are still very little.

So what happened? I point to the Lanthanum chloride. But I will never be sure because I added that and the phosphate reactor at the same time.

So now I have the new yellow tang only. And all through this the two little clown fish are doing great.

So for all you people starting in this hobby, be prepared to spend lots of money. Advice is plenty but good advice maybe not. Start slowly! I would have said I was an experience fish caretaker, but this has been a rough ride. I thought I was doing everything correct, and did so slowly. But now I am not sure. I think I will change the water a few more times and just wait to see if the fish in the tank live. If they do, maybe I will continue but I sure have spent a lot of money and I'm very frustrated.

For all you experts, if you read this and I did something terribly wrong I sure would like to know. I am not afraid to learn.

[Aquattro]

Was this new rock? Not sure why you got so much PO4 so soon. Lights probably didn't help with algae. Anemones always get sucked into pumps. Fact of life :) Your clowns seldom approve of anemone.
Water changes every few days is a bit overkill. Larger less frequent are better. Also better than adding lots of removers and adders and takerawayers.
Butterflies are delicate, often end up dying.
I'd get a RO unit, do water changes every 2 weeks. 25% or more. I like to run carbon, some don't. I don't use any other filter media. Get a better light, not sure I'd trust that one. Not enough for coral, and probably good at growing algae. Not sure what kind of skimmer you have, suspect it's not good enough. Generally "not bad, but ok" will not be enough for a reef.

[kien]

What was the time frame for all of this? Aside from waiting a few weeks before adding your first critters. The reason I ask is because your "problems" are very common challenges that ALL salt water hobbyists encounter at some stage and to various degrees. Ultimately we have all poured the same amount of time and money into the hobby to battle these challenges. It sounds like you were suggested all the proper remedies. Although, I have no experience with lanthium chloride. We've all had to figure out the appropriate lighting for our setups, the best way for us to battle phosphates, nitrates, anemone suicides, etc.

I guess what I'm getting at is that your journey sounds quite common. I think what you're truly battling is trying to stabilize your tank. All new tanks need To achieve a level of stabilization to be successful. Unfortunately this is quite challenging, as you've discovered, if you are trying to battle various nuisances. One suggestion I would make is whenever you are attacking something, try to limit yourself to one solution at a time. I would not have recommend you dose lanthium while bringing gfo AND bioPellets all online at the same time.

[reefwars]

i think it was a bit to much too fast saltwater is about slow changes so they are not noticable to your live stock , i agree starting with LC was a bad idea as well.

fact is this is easily fixable by simply stop spending and let your tank stabilize , do your reg water changes and do not feed the tank , if you have fish left throw them some pellets every other day but thats it.

turn your lights back to just 4-5hrs a day.

and thats it go have some fun dont but buy any livestock pretend your tank doesnt exist it doesnt need us in it and changing things every other day remeber alot of what your trying to keep is delicate. if you come back to your tank in a month to a month and a half this will resolve its self if you take care of a couple of things now.

run some carbon , do a large water change to correct whats wrong now and then let it stabilize.

for every action is a reaction they arnt always immediate and so they tend to snowball slowly in the first few months.

test your water or bring to a lfs

theres def a couple of things that will help your journey like a decent skimmer,powerheads and quality salt etc.

i know youve spent a bunch on the hobby but i run a couple tanks that are basic as it gets , no fish,reg water changes and no skimmer,expensive powerheads etc. it can be done you just have to pace yourself a bit more and add less overall to your system unless its absolutely needed.

do a water test once every week or two to get an idea whats happening but if i were you i would set my tank in crusie control and come back to see it in a month.

post your questions here , we are all very knowlegeable and are the poeple you should be asking for advice...were not selling you anything :mrgreen::mrgreen:

[geweagle]

Brad,

Thank you.

Wish a few more had said these.

First, second hand rock. At $10.00 lb for new hard to handle.

Anemones, yes I agree and wish I had known before.

Water changes were an act of desperation. Did not know what to do, with so many suggestions. I agree, removal is the way to go, so carbon is a good idea. Reactive chemistry can be trouble and bite you later, like me. Bottom line remove what is the problem. You really cannot react it and remove from the system.

Lesson learned would be to get live rock and sand only. Check chemistry and change the water until the chemistry was good. Use carbon to clean it up as a supplement to clean it up. No light until chemistry is OK so you do not have algae

Light is a cost only issue. It was a reasonable option for the cost. Spending $1000 + was just out of the question. I think if the phosphate was under control I would not have had the alge outbreak.

RO unit is nice but expensive for starting. Lesson learned not an option but more a requirement for salt water systems. Add another few hundread to your setup cost.

Skimmer, is a second hand HK something. It seemed to skim well and made good skimate. But yes a sump and good skimmer is better if you want to spend the cash and have an overflow tank. I did not.

Would have been nice if I was warned about the butterfly fish and the trouble anemones can be. When I read threads it is mixed.

So over all I would say I am much more informed than before and have had first hand experience in what can go wrong.

[Proteus]

Well you got advise from the big three. All trustworthy people to ask Qs

[IanWR]

Geweagle,

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience. All of us who are starting tanks are in the same boat - getting a lot of advice (some of it conflicting), trying as best we can, and attempting to avoid emptying the bank account. :) Hopefully it's not actually a eulogy, but just a pause to take stock. I look forward to seeing how this turns out. Keep us posted!

- Ian

[91Atrac]

Been there done that man! Haven't had red hair algae but cyano is common mistake we do as beginners. Phosphates do cause algae issues and I love and bide by natural so water changes or macro/plants to help control the nitrates, and all those things so a mangrove garden or refugium is king!

Some of the things I think you may have jump guns with like reactors but that's just me. Keep it simple and move on.

I don't know what 30ppt is...? I personally prefer the 1.024 for salinity. .025 is nice too. I have a friend who has his low at about .021 cuz he says his coral grow faster that way lol. To each there own HAHAHHAHA!

Lighting is usually how I look at it is 2-3watts per gallon.

[Dearth]

Geweagle

The biggest and hardest thing to do in this hobby is to be patient it can take a few weeks to a month or more for stuff cycle and it can be annoying as hell watching a virtually empty tank do next to nothing and the itch to put something in there can be unbearable but almost any SW person will tell you patience is a virtue. It will save you time, money and grief in the long run

RO units can be expensive but J&L aquatics sells a decent one for relatively cheap which I use and it does fine and you can pick up spare filters for any RO unit at almost any place where bulk water is sold

RO UNIT link
http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/vt-ro100/Vertex+Puratek+Reverse+Osmosis+%28RO%29+Filter+-+100GPD.html

Good site to visit for most fish and coral needs is liveaquaria its almost the bible for SW hobbyists
http://www.liveaquaria.com/

Hang in there and if your not sure ask questions here first before going to a LFS the knowledge base here is second to none and nobody will try to steer you wrong

[JmeJReefer]

U can get R/O water from most grocery stores. I get mine from save-on foods for now.
Tap water is a problem.
Do you use a hydrometer or refractometer? Ur salinity might be out if u use the first.
Wait. N wait. N wait.
Do you run a sump or canister filter, hob filter etc.? Canister filters r notorious nutrient creators.

[Magickiwi]

Brad,

Light is a cost only issue. It was a reasonable option for the cost. Spending $1000 + was just out of the question. I think if the phosphate was under control I would not have had the alge outbreak.

When you said the name of the model of light you have it sounded like a grow light vs. an aquarium light. The bottom line is that grow lights, or anything in that wavelength, are going to do what they are designed to: grow plants.


Would have been nice if I was warned about the butterfly fish and the trouble anemones can be. When I read threads it is mixed.

I'm afraid that one's on you. The responsibility to know the exact details of the livestock you purchase is solely on you. Checking out a few threads on the ones you want to purchase simply isn't enough. As for anemones, every description I've seen for them says be careful they don't get sucked into your intakes.

Just saying that you're suffering a mix of inexperience, incomplete information, and a couple of less than ideal choices. Marine aquariums are expensive, that is a sad fact. Persistence is the key to anything good in life, if it's in you to keep trying then this can be a very rewarding hobby. Keep educating yourself and heed the advice that experienced people like reefwars, aquattro, kien, etc.

[Reef Pilot]

Yup, no way around it, a lot of learning with SW. And you'll get a lot of conflicting opinions, too. But like others have said, go slow, and don't try to fix too many things at one time, so you can better correlate cause and effect.

Get your water params right first, starting with salinity, KH, Ca, and let your tank go through the post cycle phases with algae, etc. Fix your nitrates and phosphates later, after the basics are stable.

And really try to curb that urge to add livestock, especially delicate ones.

[asylumdown]

Some very good advice in this thread. The two cents that I would add would be that while 80 gallons might seem like a big number, for the fish you had, it's actually not that big of a tank. I'm not sure of your tank's exact dimensions, but if it's in the range of the 72 gallon bowfronts it's probably about 4 feet long. I'm not sure what size they were when you got them, but the bicoloured angel's adult size is about 6", the yellow tang can reach 8", and I'm not sure of the exact species of butterfly fish that you had, but I'm going to assume based on the common name that it's what's also known as the Latticed Butterfly (Chaetodon rafflesi), which has an adult size of 6". If they were all adults and lined up head to tail, they would be almost half the length of your tank. It very well could work long term, but I would consider that to be a pretty well stocked 80 gallon tank, plus you had/have clowns in there.

So, question 1 - how far apart did you add the fish, and what was your schedule for testing ammonia as you stocked the tank? It sounds like you tested it at least once, but while adding one more fish to an established community likely will have little affect on your ammonia levels, doubling or tripling the number of fish in a system (from one to two, for example) definitely can. Also, a dying nem in an 80 gallon can put off a whole lot of ammonia, enough to have possibly overwhelmed your yellow tang. Did you test for ammonia the day the yellow tang died? It's hard to tell what sort of a timeline this all happened on from your post, how many days between fish losses were there?

Assuming ammonia/water chemistry wasn't the problem (it may or may not have contributed), something else has been killing your fish. While I'm sure there are cases where fish have strokes or heart attacks and mysteriously die for not visible reason, in aquariums you can usually discount those altogether. That leaves us with three other options: Aggression, disease, or malnutrition. Chronic stress could be in there too, but really it just serves to exacerbate the three acute causes of death. This leads me to question 2 - what sort of quarantine procedure did you use for the fish you added? If the answer is none, There is a very good chance disease has played a role. I know you've been keeping fish for a while, but the really nasty killers in the marine world are not always as obvious to the naked eye as some of the fresh water diseases, especially on light coloured fish. The two most obvious things to look for on your surviving fish would be marine ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and marine velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum). Marine ich, AKA white spot disease, is usually pretty obvious to the naked eye once it reaches a lethal level, but unless you were looking closely or knew what to look for it's still possible to miss. In it's worst form, you should even see little white spots on the fishes eyes. Marine velvet however, can be subtle enough that unless you knew what to look for you could miss it, and it can take a fish from 'normal' to 'really quite dead' in less than 24 hours. If the fish were not quarantined and prophylactically treated, the chances that you don't have at least some marine ich present in your system is pretty low, which doesn't always mean it will kill them, but it does mean you have a lower margin for error in the level of stress your fish can handle before it can overwhelm them. It's a very common misconception that you can speed up a cycle by using someone else's 'aged' water, as the nitrification process happens in the substrate, not the water column. What there is plenty of in the water column is fish pathogens, and fish stores are especially notorious for being breeding grounds of disease. Most experienced hobbyists go through great lengths to keep water from fish stores out of their systems for that very reason.

If disease wasn't an issue (though I strongly believe it played a role), you have to look at aggression and nutrition. You would have noticed the aggression if it was present, but you'd need to watch very carefully to know if nutrition played a role. Butterfly fish are notoriously difficult to get to eat in captivity, and many die from complications related to starvation. By the time you see them in a store, most fish have spent at least a couple of weeks in transit, and many of them have barely eaten, and were not being given the kind of care they need to train them on new foods. Most LFS's (even the good ones) are pretty bad at making sure each fish in every tank is getting enough food. When I first started out, the only powder blue tangs, butterfly fishes, and anthias's I had ever seen were the ones in store tanks, so I actually had no idea that what I thought was 'normal' was actually how those fish looked when emaciated. Now that I have a healthy Copper Band Butterfly and can compare what they're supposed to look like with how they look in most stores... it's actually quite heart breaking. Chances are good your butterfly wasn't eating enough and that it was under-weight and had little defence against disease or any issues with water chemistry.

My advice - If your tank is having trouble keeping fish alive, you don't even need to be thinking about things like whether your phosphate is too high to keep corals. Find out what is killing your fish first, and address that problem or problems. If your system can't sustain fish, it's absolutely not going to sustain corals, and taking drastic measures to reduce phosphate is only complicating what you should be focusing on. ID any diseases that might be present, and take the established steps to eliminate it as best you can. Adopt a QT strategy that works for you. Research your fish choices and be prepared to go the extra mile (usually in a QT tank) to get finicky eaters fully acclimated and gaining weight before introducing them to food competitors. Stop taking drastic measures to eliminate this or that perceived problem as soon as you notice it - slow and subtle is the name of the game. Save for marine velvet, you'll usually kill more things trying to 'fix' the problem than most 'problems' ever kill.

ANd if you read that whole post, you've got more patience than I usually do.

[Simons]

yes frustrating for sure. Like you, I have been keeping fish for a long time (over a decade) in my 100G planted tank. I did almost a year of research and reading while my basement was being developed because I knew I wanted a large saltwater tank.

I think everyone hear has pointed out that SLOW and steady wins the race with saltwater tanks. Unlike freshwater, parameters usually do not change quickly but if they do (even 'good' changes) can still lead to crashes.

First off, GFO and Carbon for a 'new' saltwater aquarium is essential (IMHO), not only does the carbon polish the water, keeping it clear and not yellow, it removes significant amounts of unwanted waste products. Good GFO reactor does the same with phosphates which is a significant contributing factor to most algae outbreaks. I would say in your case, because you started with tap water, it would be a requirement, not an option.

As others have pointed out, you can get RO water from many suppliers that is fairly cheap. This way you KNOW your not putting additional phosphates and minerals into your water column.

I would hold off on any other corals until you can get a handle on your RO water situation, I don't think they will do well.

Remember slow and steady just like the others have indicated, in reality I do not like adding ANY chemicals to my water. If it isn't in my carbon or GFO reactors it isn't in my tank. Keeping corals will require dosing at some point but I wouldn't even dream of starting that in your tank until you get a handle on your water.

Remember, in saltwater we don't "keep coral's and animals" we keep WATER. It's the only thing that matters.

Can you post a detailed description of ALL your equipment? It will help with nailing down where some quick assistance may be required.

[tang daddy]

I see posts on people adding this and that for their problems and right away I think in my head it's another mad chemist on a rampage.... I am not meaning this in a bad way.

Alot of good advise and knowledge from fellow hobbyist on here, different corals prefer different water params. It is quite normal for green star polyps to close up for a couple days. One thing to keep in mind here is that most softie corals, ones without skeletons prefer nutrient rich water, ie dirtier water. Although fish and sps coral require the opposite. Finding the balance is the hard part, I have been in the hobby for quite sometime and still make mistakes from time to time.

Most people with successfull fish take time to qt, but the rest of us don't have the space or time so we just acclimate and toss in. Adding fish is risky business and if the stressed fish is introduced, most times it will bring ich to your tank which stresses out all your other fish. At times adding fish can screw up all the inhabitants, I've seen this happen in a few friends tanks.

I would hold of on adding any more fish for a couple weeks to months. If you're going to add fish make sure to read about their requirements first as they may not be reef suitable and also harm your other fish, also picky eaters are not a good choice. A fish that eats readily will survive, most of my picky fish perished over time from being to slow to eat.

Having abit of phosphates and nitrates in your tank won't hurt your fish or soft coral, having your tank too clean will starve the softies, again it's a balance so go slow and try not to change everything at once.

[geweagle]

Hello All,

First I want to thank you all for your comments. Sorry I was out of town for a few days so just getting back to answer some of the comments. Also I think I have found the root to most of the fish losses, which unfortunately is likely disease. that was what Asylumdown suggested. After reading his comments I started checking some things and to put the pieces together. Here is likely the trend. I hope people find this useful.

I am likely going to loss the new Yellow Tang as well. I actually was able to watch the progression this time. It was fast! It is likely ICK. Classic symptoms. It likely started with the first fish I lost. I noticed the fish was rubbing against rocks a lot. But I did not know if that was normal or abnormal behavior for that fish as it was a rock dweller. My saline was Low! (26-7 ppt) I did not even know that was likely a good thing.

I started to raise the salinity because it was low. Got it up to 30 ppt. the target was to be 35 ppt. Likely only to through the ICK into full bloom. The fish died and I did not even see it, I was away for a few days. Then a few days later the checker butterfly fish started to show the same action, rubbing against the rock in the little cave I had made. I though he was chasing the shrimp because they were in those caves. He died when I was away too so I never did get to see what he looked like.

Now the new yellow tang started to show adnormal behavior. Same Same. At least I knew Tangs are open water fish. They do not hang near rocks normally. They like to swim in open water. This morning it happen so fast. In a matter of "1 hour" he went from rubbing the rock to on his side in trouble. I pulled him out and put him in a quaratine tank I have. Which fortunately hyposalinity at about 28 ppt. Noticed some white spots on the fins. Did not see them before. Not many but surely some there. I will know tonight if he has made it. Some hemoraging also started on the dorsal fin.

SO no more fish till this tank stablizes. I never saw ICK go this fast. but my experience is all fresh water.

Comments to some questions and feeback for those interested

I would like to start by saying that yes this is a troubled tank. I have never seen so much happen so quick. Was I over reacting? Yes! most likely. Was I pushing the time frame? Yes! likely but the chemistry of the tank did look ok at the time. Never dreamed I had a disease situation

I am fortunately that I have access to good analytic methods. I use a DR2800 Hach spec for most of my water testing as I work in water treatment. So the water chemistry testing acuracy I feel is pretty good. I have access to ICP water analysis as well if I choice. Salinity I do at this time use a hydrometer, but not just the litttle cheap swinge arm. I have a proper bubble glass tube salinometer hydrometer. Acuracy is to the third decimal. Likely I will go to a refractometer eventually. I do tend to think in PPT (part per trillion) rather than refractive index, but the conversion scales are simple

The light fixture I have is an Evergrow IT2080 32" with Blue and White LED. It is well reviewed and perhaps not top of the line but pretty good. Currently it has 90 deg LED lens and I and getting some 120's so I can reach the side of the tank.

The fish I purchased were all small under 2". I do understand that the Tangs and Butterfly and Angels will out grow the tank. When that happens I would likely trade or sell them. But for now they offer such great colours and the family loved them. When they start to show stress I will move them Out. I do have a 120 gal three compartment quaratine tank as well which I have moved to SW as well.

I am going to invest in a RO/DI system. although my chemistry does look pretty good now. But Yes silica is lilely high. T-alkalinity is OK and Ca expressed at hardness is also OK. But saying that could be better.

Yes I am pretty sure I was chasing the wrong issue. Most of the serious issues I think are not chemistry at all but disease. Just never saw it move so fast.

Currently I still have 2 clowns, and 4 small yellow tail damsels. They are doing fine and I will leave them be. But I will drop the salinity down and let the ICK run its course. Not going near any copper. Too many issues after the fact.

So as summary to the Eulogy. A troubled tank. Too much too fast. Chasing the wrong issues. I hope this journey will be of use to people in the future starting in this hobby.

Glenn

[tang daddy]

It maybe a good idea to start up a qt tank for new additions, I notice that people with qt tanks lose hardly any fish compared to people that don't.

I saw a small qt tank with angels, anthias, royal gamma and a few other fish all waiting to go into the main display at my friends house. It was a simple set up that was 14g with 2 hob filters running charcoal and sponge. He had a small fluidized filter and air stone. He dosed prazi pro and melafix if needed and ran just a few drops of copper. Changed the water about 5% every 3 days. They all were healthy and eating pellets and flakes... Even the anthias was eating flakes, couldn't believe all the fish got along in such a small tank. After seeing how easy it is, I am thinking of starting a small qt for my new additions so I don't lose anymore fish.

[geweagle]

I agree. I am pretty sure the root cause to the fish loses was disease. I do have a quaratine tank now and will certainly use it. Yes my display tank looked ugly but that I am beginning to think would not kill fish. It looks like it was not chemistry issues at all. But the ICK was not easy to see. It did not help that I did not have a chance to see it in progress on the first two kills. But this last one, which I hope I might have saved, was classic. :(

I am beginning to think more issues in startups can be disease and less chemistry, but chemistry is easy to point too. You can measure it. You know what the targets are. So if it is off we tend to blame what we can see.

Disease is far less easy to pinpoint and symptoms are often vague. At least my experience is that it can be incredibly fast. Healthy to morbian in 4 days.

[Dearth]

I've been in the hobby a year now but one thing I have learned is that with salt water in the aquarium setting is that when fish get a disease or injury that it could otherwise shake off in the wild in the aquarium it could literally take hrs to kill a fish and if you don't recognize the symptoms and telltales there is little hope of saving the fish/coral.

I don't run a QT tank mostly due to space requirements and once everything is out of my lil tank it is being shut down. Mostly it just boils down to taking your time, basic understanding and patience.

[asylumdown]

Marine ich and freshwater ich are similar organisms in a lot of ways, but they're different species with different pathologies. It can go very quickly, as the parasites tend to build up silently over a couple of generations, then when their numbers are truly astronomical, your fish suddenly falls apart on you.

The one thing about it however, is that it never really "runs its course". If C. irritans is present in a system, and that system has fish in it, all the research and anecdotal evidence indicates that it will continue to persist. The existing fish will likely develop a partial immunity and you will likely stop seeing symptoms over time, but the parasite will most definitely still be there. If you search the various forums, you will find a variety of opinions on whether or not this is a problem, but the one thing that it will guarantee is that if you don't take the steps necessary to eliminate it from your tank, it will always be a gamble for you to add ich prone or delicate fish. Before my first and (thankfully) only total tank wipeout, I managed to reach a level of equilibrium with my established fish - none died, and very few ever showed visible symptoms. However, my rate of loss for new fish (especially ich prone fish like tangs) was around 70%. Even with a good QT and fattening up, a fish's stress levels are highest and their immunological defenses are lowest when they're first introduced to a new community, which is exactly the conditions ich opportunistically exploits.

Whether or not you can ever have an "ich free" tank, is a contentious point of debate, but you can go through steps to clear your display of it as much as possible. If your yellow tang survives and you put him back in an infected display that has not been run free of fish long enough to break ich's life cycle, you will very likely end up in the same position with that fish again. Over time it may develop enough of an immune response to cope with a moderate level of infection, but it will need to be in really good shape to do that.

The only way to let ich "run its course" is to remove all fish from the display, treat them all in a separate QT system using one the methods that are known to be effective (there's really only 4), and let the display tank run fallow for 9-12 weeks (depending on who you ask, I err on the longer side as it would suck to waste 9 weeks if it wasn't long enough).

The other option is to just deal with ich, a many on here do, which is possible long term, but you will always have problems adding new, stressed out, immunologically naive fish and may never have success with the more ich prone species. You will also need to maintain optimal diet and conditions for the fish that do adapt so the parasite never gets the upper hand. If that's the route you go, I'd still wait a couple months before adding new fish, having three fish kack it on you will have contributed a pretty significant number of encysted ich tomonts to your system. While you'll never clear it without going fallow, having the tank populated by ich resistant fish *should* mean that over time the "parasite bank" will deplete, as fewer will live to complete the life cycle. The less of it present when you do add more fish, the better.

[asylumdown]

And I said *should* because that's what makes logical sense given what I know of the parasite, not because that's ever been demonstrated by research.

And as for the chemistry bit... Most tanks look like crap for a while in their early stages, the artificial ecosystems we maintain have to figure out what their equilibriums will be and different kinds of organisms will bloom and fade away. The art is figuring out what is a transient part of maturation, what is a sign of ongoing eutrophication that needs husbandry intervention, and what is actually just an invasive pest that can thrive in any conditions and requires more extreme efforts on your part. That all comes in time I think.

[geweagle]

Asylumdown,

Thank you for the comments. I am just going to sit tight for a while and see what happens as you suggest. I can quarantine the fish and may yet do that that but for now I am leaving everything alone.

[Magickiwi]

Marine ich and freshwater ich are similar organisms in a lot of ways, but they're different species with different pathologies. It can go very quickly, as the parasites tend to build up silently over a couple of generations, then when their numbers are truly astronomical, your fish suddenly falls apart on you.

The one thing about it however, is that it never really "runs its course". If C. irritans is present in a system, and that system has fish in it, all the research and anecdotal evidence indicates that it will continue to persist. The existing fish will likely develop a partial immunity and you will likely stop seeing symptoms over time, but the parasite will most definitely still be there. If you search the various forums, you will find a variety of opinions on whether or not this is a problem, but the one thing that it will guarantee is that if you don't take the steps necessary to eliminate it from your tank, it will always be a gamble for you to add ich prone or delicate fish. Before my first and (thankfully) only total tank wipeout, I managed to reach a level of equilibrium with my established fish - none died, and very few ever showed visible symptoms. However, my rate of loss for new fish (especially ich prone fish like tangs) was around 70%. Even with a good QT and fattening up, a fish's stress levels are highest and their immunological defenses are lowest when they're first introduced to a new community, which is exactly the conditions ich opportunistically exploits.

Whether or not you can ever have an "ich free" tank, is a contentious point of debate, but you can go through steps to clear your display of it as much as possible. If your yellow tang survives and you put him back in an infected display that has not been run free of fish long enough to break ich's life cycle, you will very likely end up in the same position with that fish again. Over time it may develop enough of an immune response to cope with a moderate level of infection, but it will need to be in really good shape to do that.

The only way to let ich "run its course" is to remove all fish from the display, treat them all in a separate QT system using one the methods that are known to be effective (there's really only 4), and let the display tank run fallow for 9-12 weeks (depending on who you ask, I err on the longer side as it would suck to waste 9 weeks if it wasn't long enough).

The other option is to just deal with ich, a many on here do, which is possible long term, but you will always have problems adding new, stressed out, immunologically naive fish and may never have success with the more ich prone species. You will also need to maintain optimal diet and conditions for the fish that do adapt so the parasite never gets the upper hand. If that's the route you go, I'd still wait a couple months before adding new fish, having three fish kack it on you will have contributed a pretty significant number of encysted ich tomonts to your system. While you'll never clear it without going fallow, having the tank populated by ich resistant fish *should* mean that over time the "parasite bank" will deplete, as fewer will live to complete the life cycle. The less of it present when you do add more fish, the better.

Or buy some cleaner shrimp and let them pick the parasites off your fish. :D

[reefwars]

some other options is the tank transfer method and hyposalinity , both are proven to work.

i find hypo the easiest and less work but does not treat MI

for the record...cleaner shrimp, fish etc. do not cure fish of ich lol they clean dying flesh, small parasites etc. while it may much the odd ich parasite it will not cure a fish thats already showing signs or keep ich out of a tank.


i just ran all my fish through a 2 mth hypo treat ment , kept the tanks at 1.009 for 2 mths and ran it with a few pieces of liverock. did a water change twice:P

[geweagle]

Reefwars,

Thank you. I started to drop the salinity last night. I will do so slowly, But I would not have thought to go that low. i will see how it goes.

[reefwars]

Reefwars,

Thank you. I started to drop the salinity last night. I will do so slowly, But I would not have thought to go that low. i will see how it goes.

remember , no sand its a big one to follow , i wouldnt drop your display to hypo but set up a small 10-20g tank much easier and safer overall.

its basic so a powerhead, heater and some liverock. lights arnt necessary unless the tank is in pitch black and add some large abs or pvc for places to hide.

feed little and soak in garlic.

you can go as high as 1.011 i believe to still be effective but i cant recall for sure atm.

remember all fish need to be qt'd , and while doing hypo the display needs to be fishless for 8-10 weeks , shrimps and corals are fine but no fish what so ever or its a lost cause.

use a refractometer when doing hypo and a hydrometer is not accurate even the better ones are horrible:)

gl!!

[reefwars]

while i was doing hypo i would switch out a piece of rock here and there just to keep things stable, although the bacteria can survive hypo 100% all the food the rock houses like pods , coraline etc. will perish so if you have say a scooter or wrasses like i do then it helps to add a fresh food source back to them.

also not all fish can be hypo'd some do not do well like leopards,mandarins, sand sifters etc.

good luck friend:)

[geweagle]

Thanks Reefwars,

I have been reading and it confrimes everything you said. I am fortunately I have a small tanks. It does have sand which I was wondering about. I thought maybe it should go. Which is what you have confirmed. I will go to a refractometer. The display tank will be cleared of all fish and will have some leathers, a couple peppermint shimp and a few crabs. I will not do the hypo on that tank. just leave fowl. I will keep skimmer etc running. And leave live rock there. But maybe as you suggested cycle some into the hypo tank. But some have leathers and palyp attached so I cannot move those as I understand they will not survive. Looking like one clown may have some cryst now. Still healthy and eatting but just confirms that the ICH life cycles is alive and well. :sad:

Got to go through this because otherwise likely never be able to keep any fish.

[albert_dao]

If you want good advice, here's a good tip to help you filter through the noise:

Look for the nice tanks that have been around for a while.

That's it.

[globaldesigns]

I do believe the biggest problem for most in this hobby is being impatient. Key here is to take your time, go slow, do not make harsh/rash decisions.

Good example, is that Denny suggested hypo, and you are already lowering your display tank, whereas you shouldn't.

take a step back, take a breath and relax, slow down, and enjoy this hobby. We have all had our obstacles, I myself am one of them.

Do your research, but before you jump to do it, research again, make notes, analyze and then determine your approach.

Not sure what your time frame was during this, as Kien asked, what is it? I myself didn't add any fish to my tank until after 3-4 months (maybe longer). Cleaning crew was introduced between 1-2 months.

Welcome to the hobby, it is a great one!!!!

[naesco]

I do believe the biggest problem for most in this hobby is being impatient. Key here is to take your time, go slow, do not make harsh/rash decisions.

Good example, is that Denny suggested hypo, and you are already lowering your display tank, whereas you shouldn't.

take a step back, take a breath and relax, slow down, and enjoy this hobby. We have all had our obstacles, I myself am one of them.

Do your research, but before you jump to do it, research again, make notes, analyze and then determine your approach.

Not sure what your time frame was during this, as Kien asked, what is it? I myself didn't add any fish to my tank until after 3-4 months (maybe longer). Cleaning crew was introduced between 1-2 months.

Welcome to the hobby, it is a great one!!!!

Great advice. Even reefers who have been around for a while should heed your advice

[geweagle]

Hello Golbaldesign
Yes I would say I pushed the time but not so much. I put the custodians in after 1 month. Put the first fish in a month later so 2 months. Waited few weeks to see how they did. Everything was Ok so I got more. The Chemistry was Ok except PO4 which was high and I started a program to get it down. Understood corals need low or its effects their ability to deposit Ca. Then the red grass algae started. Thought the whole time my problem when fish started to die was chemistry. When it was ICH.

"Started to lower the salinity in the display tank". Actually I only brought it down to where it had been which was on the low side. I understood it might slow the ICH until I got the hypo tank set up. That is what I am working on now. then I will transfer the fish once it is stable. But in the mieantime I am trying not to loose more fish. looking like one clown is now infected. Still healthy and eatting at this time.

So I ask you and others. If you were loosing fish would you not try to save them? only droped the salinity from 30 ppt to 28 ppt. Will it help? Maybe not but at least I tried. Hopefully I will have the hypo tanks setup in the next couple of days.

So yes I am taking it slowly. And I really want this to work because I love the fish, corals, and overall look. But it is a lot of work to get started. And I will never put fish in my display tank again with out a good quarantine.

[reefwars]

Another couple points is they can go in now and bring salinity down a bit at a time, they can go down im salinity quick but have to come back very slowly.

Make sure ph is roughly the same and temp stays low 77-78

Tie a air stone to your powerhead with ziptie or elastic.

[reefwars]

Your on the right track this will allow time to stabilize your display.

Try not to freak the fish out to much :)

[geweagle]

reefwars,

Thank you. I have transferred the fish and leaving them for now. I was and will drop salinity slowly. I have an air stone, power head and heater all in the tank. Currently it is at 79C. Salinity is about 29 ppt. will check the pH again but it was at 8.1 volume is about 25 gal. 5 damsal, 2 clowns and 1 sand blenny. Diaplay tank has no fish just some crabs shrimps and leathers with the rock.

[geweagle]

Well it is not all bad news. I discovered one of the peppermint shrimp is carrying eggs. Only have two so either she was already pregnant or I lucked out and got a pair. Had them for 3 months now. Now that there are no fish in the tank the little onse might have a chance.

[geweagle]

For all those following this tread. This si the display tank today. We will see how the Fallow run goes to get read of the ICH11767

[asylumdown]

Or buy some cleaner shrimp and let them pick the parasites off your fish. :D

Unfortunately, no cleaning organism has ever been demonstrated to actually eat Cryptocaryon irritans. The parasites bury themselves too deep in the skin of the fish for a commensal cleaner to get them off. What's far more common is that by the time people notice the pustules on the fish, they're nearly mature and ready to drop off. Then they see their cleaner shrimp/wrasse paying attention to the fish, and the next day, the pustule is gone. What has actually happened is that the trophont had it's fill, and sometime in the middle of the night while the fish was sleeping, it dropped off to become a tomont. A cleaner organism can be a useful addition for other reasons (though in some cases being constantly pestered by a cleaner fish or shrimp that you can't get away from can actually be stressful for a fish), but as far as a control agent for marine ich, they are completely useless.